The testimony of Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw was taken at 10:30 a.m., on March
26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record again. My name is Burt
Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's
office of the President's Commission on the assassination of President
Kennedy. This Commission was established as a result of an Executive
order that was signed by President Johnson on November 29, 1963,
and a joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Pursuant to that joint
resolution and the Executive order the Commission has prescribed a
set of procedures, and in accordance with this provision I have been
authorized to take your deposition, Mr. Cutchshaw.
I want to tell you first of all a little bit about the scope of the
investigation. The Commission has been directed by the President to
inquire into and ascertain all the facts that have to do with the
assassination of President Kennedy and with the subsequent murder of
Lee Harvey Oswald, and to evaluate these facts and report back to the
President.
We don't have any authority here to prosecute any crimes. We are not
investigating for that purpose. The only crime that can be committed
in connection with this investigation is the crime of perjury. We are
here to try to determine the facts, and in order to make sure that
the events that have transpired over the last few months will not
be repeated in the future, if that is possible, and to attempt to
determine whether there is still any danger to our chief officers in
Government and the national security.
In doing this, we have had hundreds of interviews conducted by
various members of the Federal investigatory agencies, and perhaps
hundreds is an understatement. It may be thousands. We have a stack of
documents over in a corner that would frighten you. It just represents
people who have been talked to by the various Federal Bureaus. Now
we are undertaking to talk to a few other people that we think are
particularly central in terms of having information that would be
useful.
As to you, Mr. Cutchshaw, we have asked you to come here because we
want to ascertain what you know in particular about the death of
Oswald, and we also, however, want any pertinent facts that you may
have that would bear upon the entire picture.
You have been asked to appear here as a result of a letter which was
mailed to Chief Curry in the form of a general request from Mr. J.
Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel of the President's Commission.
Actually, under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled
to get a personal letter from the Commission, and 3 days before you
testify here. However, the rules do provide that you can waive that
particular letter, or 3-day written notice. Now, the first thing I want
to ask you is if you would like us to send you a letter, or if you
prefer to waive the 3-day notice?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I will waive that notice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Also, the rules of the Commission provide that you are
entitled to be represented by counsel at any time, and many of the
people do have attorneys here. I want you to feel that we welcome your
availing yourself of this opportunity if you want to, but I see that
you are not here with an attorney, and I presume by that fact that
you have decided that you don't want one. But if you do feel that you
would like one, please feel free to indicate right now and we will
certainly----
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I don't feel I need one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay, let me ask you to raise your right hand and swear
you in. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Wilbur Jay Cutchshaw.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mr. Cutchshaw?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. May 27, 1923.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you presently live?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. 401 Southwest 22d, Grand Prairie, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Police officer, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the police department?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. A little over 9 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you in any particular bureau of the police department?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Criminal investigation division, juvenile bureau.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you hold any particular rank in the department?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Detective.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been with the juvenile bureau?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. About 2-1/2 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you the time before that?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Radio patrol. Mostly working in the West Dallas area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever work in the downtown Dallas area?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think I worked downtown there for about a month.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jack Ruby before the time he shot Lee Oswald?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I had seen him one time before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. At the Carousel on Commerce.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to see him?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I went up in his place one night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before he shot Oswald?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That's been about 2-1/2 years ago, the first time I saw
him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for the purpose of identification a
copy of an interview report prepared by FBI Agents Mabey and Hughes,
purporting to report an interview they had with you on December 2,
1963. I am marking this "Dallas, Tex., Detective Cutchshaw, 3-26-64,
Exhibit 5042." I have marked for identification the interview report of
December 2, 1963, by Mabey and Hughes as Exhibit 5042. I have marked
what purports to be a copy of a letter signed by you to Chief Curry,
dated November 24, 1963, as Exhibit 5043. And I have marked as Exhibit
5044 a copy of a report by FBI Agent James W. Bookhout, relating to an
interview that Bookhout had with you on November 24th. That is Exhibit
5044. Now, have you had a chance to look over these two interview
reports and a copy of your letter?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections that you would want
to make in those documents?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I couldn't see any that I would want to make.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay; now, you were up in the juvenile bureau all of
Sunday morning until you were called down in the basement; is that
right?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were up there, do you
recall who was on duty?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, let's see. Officer Goolsby was working the desk,
and Lowery and myself and Harrison and Miller, I believe it was, and,
oh, yes, June McLine, a policewoman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall when it was that you first had any
information that Lee Oswald might be moved to the county jail?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. All I can remember is that Chief Stevenson came up and
told us he wanted us all to stay up in the office, and at that time it
was about 9 o'clock, I believe it was. And he said that they had to
form a security when they moved Oswald, but as far as knowing exactly
what time, I didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place it? What makes you say that he came up
about 9 o'clock?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because I remember that he said we had to be there
between, I believe it was, 9 and 10, and so I looked out the window at
the clock, but I didn't have my watch, because I had these trousers
that didn't have a watch pocket, because I have a pocket watch. I don't
have a wrist watch, and out the window we have a sign that has a big
clock. I said I better call the boys from the cafe.
They had already left to go to the cafe, but it was about 9 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were they?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Blackie Harrison and L. D. Miller.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you say that to?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I believe I asked Captain Martin if he wanted me to call
and tell them to come back. He said tell them to get back as soon as
possible.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call over at the cafe?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I asked somebody what the number was, and I think it was
a man on the desk, but it was Goolsby was the one that made the call. I
am not sure as to whether he did or not. I know somebody had to look it
up in the book what the number was over there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't recall whether you made the telephone call or
Goolsby made it?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I sure don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where it was you called?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I know where they went. I say I think I do. The Deluxe
Diner, right across from the library on Commerce.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know that?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Because that is where they said they were going. That is
what we call the "greasy spoon."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Miller and Harrison about their
testimony before the Commission?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on duty yesterday?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What duty hours are you working now?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I work from 8 to 4.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What are your days off?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. On Tuesdays and Wednesdays.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what happened? Do you recall Harrison and
Miller coming back from the diner?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I know the next time I saw them they were down in
the basement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall anybody coming in and directing you to go
down to the basement?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain O. A. Jones.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that was?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I believe that was just before 11 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time at 11 o'clock?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Well, I know we weren't down there too long, and when
they brought Oswald and he was shot, I think it was a little after 11,
or 20 minutes after, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who all went downstairs with you at that
time?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I think it was Detective Goolsby, R. L. Lowery, and
myself, and I don't remember who else went down. I know we three were
together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what happened when you got out of the
elevator?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; we walked into this little hallway lobby deal right
in front of the jail office, and we had to wait there for a while. They
had an officer on guard there at the entrance to the hallway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who that officer was?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you left the jail office, who was it you said
went down with you? Goolsby, Lowery, and who else?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. That is the only two, is Officer Goolsby, Lowery, and
myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where Miller and Harrison were?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. No; I don't. I did see them after that. He came in
there, and I asked him where he had been, and he said when he came back
from the cafe he went down in the basement, which is our locker room,
to get some cigars.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Down in the lobby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, then, when you congregated outside that jail office,
what happened?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain Jones came in and told us that we were going
to have to form a cordon and keep everybody out except those who are
authorized, which was the police officers and the news media.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything about what you should do when
Oswald came down?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. He said to try to keep everybody back and not to let
them get too close to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You formed along one of the walls; didn't you?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was at the door where the doors come out of the jail
lobby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe it would be easier if you took this diagram and
indicate on the diagram where. Would it be easier to turn it around the
other way? Indicate where you were. [Diagram marked Cutchshaw Exhibit
No. 5046.]
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. This door is a swinging door, and it was swinging back
inside the jail, and I was right here at this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an "X" there?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I was standing right here by the side of the door.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; now, did you remain there the entire time?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; until after the shooting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did Captain Jones tell you to do at that
particular time?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Captain Jones told us what he wanted done, for us to
line up the cordons here and block off the doors here, and had officers
lined over here, so I just got at that position. He didn't put us at
any particular position. So I was over here. And there was a bunch of
newsmen in this area in here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the jail office?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. In the jail office. And I asked him about those and he
said he wanted everybody out there, and we cleared out the jail office
except the officers here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is behind the desk?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you cleared out those news people in the jail office,
did anybody help you?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; Captain Jones was there. He was right there, and
he came in with me, and I believe it was a, I think it was Lieutenant
Wiggins that was on duty that morning. I'm not too sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many newspaper people would you estimate were in there?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I would say there were about seven or eight in there at
the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see where those people went?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes; they came out this door and to the left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The door where you stationed yourself?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they all go out and turn left as they got out?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They all turned to the left, and two of them, I don't
know who they were, I would recognize them if I say them, came into
this area here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Came behind the double doors?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Came back in from the double doors in front of the jail
office window.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an "X" on the map where the people were?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. I wouldn't know the exact position where they went, but
two of them went in here, and one came back out here and stood for a
minute. I will put it right in front of this window right here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. One of them went in there and stayed, and the other one
went in and came out?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Right; he came out and was standing out here for a
moment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he go?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. We made him get back of the hallway, and I think I was
right about in here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you put an "N" where that newspaper man was.
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the remainder of the newspaper people go?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. They went back into this area along there. They got a
pipe rail here, and they had officers along, and somewhere in behind
these offices along that rail.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you place on the map where you recall seeing TV
cameras?
Mr. CUTCHSHAW. Put an "N" or what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don't you draw sort of a rectangle of some sort and
write TV. Make it big enough.