The testimony of Buford Lee Beaty was taken at 9 a.m., on March 26,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For the record, I am Burt Griffin, and I am a member of
the advisory staff of the general counsel's office for the President's
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
This Commission has been appointed pursuant to Executive Order of
President Johnson issued on November 29, 1963, and pursuant to a joint
resolution of Congress No. 137.
Under the provisions of the Resolution and Executive order, the
Commission has authority to establish rules and procedure which they
have done, and pursuant to those rules and procedures I have been
designated to come here to Dallas to take your sworn deposition.
You are appearing here by virtue of a letter which was sent from the
general counsel of the Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry.
Actually, you are entitled to receive a 3-day written notice. However,
under the rules of the Commission, if you want to, you can waive the
notice, and we can go forward without the actual letter, I will ask you
a little later whether you want a letter, or waive it.
The scope of this investigation is that we are directed to investigate
and evaluate and report back to President Johnson all the facts that
surround the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent
murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Our particular concern in calling you is in connection with the death
of Lee Oswald, although I am going to ask you some questions that
will develop a little background that people who are working on the
assassination of the President can use to decide whether you were in
a position to provide some physical action that something might have
happened in which they are particularly concerned about and as to which
they need more witnesses.
But our primary concern in talking to you is to find out the matters
which might be relevant to Ruby, although we are interested in anything
else that you might know of your own knowledge that is valuable to the
Commission.
Let me ask you first of all, would you like us to get you a written
letter.
Mr. BEATY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He is shaking his head no. I might say, she has to take
your answer down.
Mr. BEATY. I am sorry; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, also, you are entitled to an attorney.
Mr. BEATY. What do I need an attorney for?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Some of the people come with attorneys. I don't want you
to feel that maybe if you come with an attorney that you are prejudiced.
Mr. BEATY. I don't need an attorney, I don't think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. BEATY. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your name for the record?
Mr. BEATY. Buford Lee Beaty.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Beaty?
Mr. BEATY. 404 Freeman, Garland.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?
Mr. BEATY. July 10, 1924.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?
Mr. BEATY. Police department, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been so employed?
Mr. BEATY. Fifteen and a half years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you in any particular bureau of the police department?
Mr. BEATY. Narcotics.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been there?
Mr. BEATY. Altogether, about 4 years. This last time, about 6 months,
something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the earlier period that you were with the
narcotics bureau?
Mr. BEATY. From 1957 to 1960. And then I came back this time in June.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now from 1960 until you came back, what bureau?
Mr. BEATY. Burglary and theft.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you hold a particular rank?
Mr. BEATY. Detective; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you know Ruby announced that you would recognize
him?
Mr. BEATY. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell us how you happened to first become
familiar with Mr. Ruby?
Mr. BEATY. When I first met him?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. BEATY. Well, I wrote him a traffic ticket one time about 1951, or
something like that. But I knew of him before then.
He had a joint down on South Ervay, and he was always calling the
police to pick up drunks and one thing and another. Everybody knows
Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was the Silver Spur?
Mr. BEATY. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In connection with your duties in the narcotics
bureau, did you ever have occasion to talk with him or conduct any
investigation in connection with him?
Mr. BEATY. About narcotics specifically?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, in connection with any of your duties, investigating
duties with the police department, as opposed to traffic tickets? Let
me ask you that question generally.
Mr. BEATY. Not that I ever recall. I can't think of anything
specifically at all where I could say I had occasion to interrogate him
about anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is, was Jack Ruby ever treated by
you as a person whom you might go to if you needed to find out about
somebody?
Mr. BEATY. A confidant? No, sir; absolutely not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether other people you worked with in the
narcotics bureau might have attempted to use him?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir; I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with any narcotics investigation that
ever took place with respect to Jack Ruby?
Mr. BEATY. None.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how often would you say that you saw Ruby during the
last 3 years?
Mr. BEATY. Possibly, four, maybe five times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the occasions for seeing Jack?
Mr. BEATY. Well, I saw him one time. I was working late nights and I
saw him walking his dog after his joint closed down on Commerce Street,
and I run into him on the street, and I go by his joint. You don't say
hello and look around. You say hello.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever stop in and visit you while you were in your
office at the police department?
Mr. BEATY. Yes; that was the last time I saw him before the shooting.
He came by--didn't particularly come to see me, but he just came to the
office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall about when that was?
Mr. BEATY. No; it seemed like it was about a month before all this
happened, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he speak to anybody in the narcotics office?
Mr. BEATY. Yes; he talked to myself, and I believe Lieutenant Cornwall
was in and out of the office, and Dan Asabell.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you all talked with Jack about?
Mr. BEATY. Yes; he talked about a girl. He had a stripper down there.
Let me think if I remember what her name was. Jada from New Orleans.
The whole thing was how he thought Jada was just a little indecent
about her act and he would have to turn the lights off every once in
a while and tell her to clean it up a little bit, and one thing and
another. And how they went through a little "Hazel" in Judge Richburg's
court over all this. It was all in the papers, the whole story was and
that is about the gist of what we talked about. And Jada testified at
the previous thing.
The bureau I work in, the special bureau, also handles all the
dancehall licenses and the liquor licenses and it could be that, I
don't believe he made a special trip to our office, I think he came to
the bureau and might have had a little business for a liquor license,
or something, I don't know. I didn't ask him about it at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, the narcotics bureau, is that correct to call
it a bureau?
Mr. BEATY. Section.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Narcotics section is a subdivision of the special service
bureau, is that correct?
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Within the special service bureau, there is a department
which handles dancehall policemen?
Mr. BEATY. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, does everybody who is a part of the special service
bureau occupy the same suite of offices?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does the narcotics bureau occupy the same suite of offices
as the dancehall bureau?
Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What other people occupy the same suite of offices?
Mr. BEATY. Vice squad.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember, Detective Beaty, that you were on duty on
November 22, the day the President was shot?
Mr. BEATY. Yes; I was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were when you first heard he had
been shot?
Mr. BEATY. Trade Mart.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go from the Trade Mart?
Mr. BEATY. Went back to our office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain there?
Mr. BEATY. I think until about 9 o'clock that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on duty on the 23d?
Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remain in the police department all day on the 23d?
Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir. What day was the 23d?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was Saturday.
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Directing your attention to Friday, did you see Jack Ruby
in the hallway at all on Friday, or any place in the police department?
Mr. BEATY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturday, did you see Jack Ruby any time on
Saturday?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would you estimate that you left the police
department on Saturday?
Mr. BEATY. Worked a lot of overtime. I am trying to remember. It was
probably 6:30 or 7 o'clock that night; Saturday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you recall whether when you left the police
department that night you had heard any rumors or had received any kind
of information that would indicate that Oswald was going to be moved
from the city jail to the county jail on Saturday?
Mr. BEATY. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Sunday a regular day for you to report to duty?
Mr. BEATY. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you report for duty?
Mr. BEATY. Eight o'clock that morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you parked your car that morning?
Mr. BEATY. In the basement, I believe. No; that is not right. It is
Sunday you are talking about now?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you to save my life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At anytime on Sunday did you ever have occasion to come in
the Commerce Street, come down the steps from Commerce Street and walk
down the hallway in the basement that leads to the records room?
Mr. BEATY. The pedestrian entrance to the city hall basement?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. BEATY. I don't remember that either. If I park my car on Commerce
Street around there somewhere, I probably did. If I parked it on Main,
I probably took that other entrance, but I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you don't remember, that is all right.
Mr. BEATY. I couldn't tell you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you arrived for duty, did you report up to the
narcotics bureau?
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that on the third floor?
Mr. BEATY. No; on the second floor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in the narcotics bureau?
Mr. BEATY. Until about 9:15 or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do at 9:15?
Mr. BEATY. Everyone decided we wanted to get some coffee, and as we got
off the elevator in the basement, I noticed all the newspaper people
standing out there and a couple of reserve officers and a policeman,
I think, whose name was Nelson. I didn't know him at the time. He was
guarding the entrance. And just curiosity made me, instead of going to
get coffee, stay around to see what was going on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the people that you were going to go to coffee with
in the narcotics bureau?
Mr. BEATY. No; vice and narcotics, and some administrative section.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any people from the third floor?
Mr. BEATY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where they went after coffee?
Mr. BEATY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they go out of the building?
Mr. BEATY. Yes; out of the building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell me what happened when you saw this fellow
Nielson.
Mr. BEATY. Right away, nothing. I mean I just happened to glance over
here and here's two officers, and nothing happened. I just kind of
lingered behind and I didn't care for coffee anyway, and I told them
I would wait for them, and I kind of figured they would maybe move
Oswald, and I just wanted to see him and that is what it amounted to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--you expected that Oswald would be moved fairly
soon?
Mr. BEATY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you received some word before that?
Mr. BEATY. Everybody in the world, at 10 o'clock. They said in the
newspaper and radio.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By this time when the boys in your group went out for
coffee, had there been any instructions to standby?
Mr. BEATY. None.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you later receive some instructions to standby to help
in the Oswald move?
Mr. BEATY. As Capt. O. A. Jones got off the elevator, and as he walked
by, he said, "Come here, I want to talk to you."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this take place in the basement?
Mr. BEATY. Right by the elevator door to the basement. He said there
will be some officers come down from the third floor, and told me to
wait for them right here, and he indicated close by the entrance to the
jail office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Detective Beaty, what is your best estimate of
how long this encounter with Jones was before Oswald actually came
downstairs?
Mr. BEATY. What time did he get shot? It was about probably 30 minutes
before he actually came down and Ruby shot him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the important thing. I would rather have you fix
it in terms of that time rather than some specific time.
Mr. BEATY. Around 30 minutes or something like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Because I noticed in the interview which you gave to
the FBI, you indicated that this was about 10 o'clock that you saw
Jones. Did you have any idea at the time when you gave this interview
to Agents Dallman and Quigley--that was on December 3--did you have
anything specific in mind when you told them that it was 10 o'clock.
Mr. BEATY. I just was trying to remember when Captain Jones told me
to remain there. No; I was just trying to remember about the lapse of
time, it seemed to me like.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to look over this with me. Let me point
out, you indicated here that you thought Oswald came down about 11:30?
Mr. BEATY. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, they have reported that you told them that it was 10
o'clock. Now it may be that that was that time it could be a mistake on
their part writing it down?
Mr. BEATY. Well, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead.
Mr. BEATY. Boy, it is hard to remember, but it seems to me like he
breezed through in just probably about 30 minutes--could possibly be
longer--after Mr. Jones told me this. I waited around for probably
another 4 or 5 minutes and the elevator doors opened up, and here all
the officers from the third floor, and we moved from there out into the
middle hallway. And they describe it here as a, whatever, I don't know,
right outside the jail office door, the little hall where they brought
him out of the jail office door there, and we remained there for about
30 minutes. And if the shooting actually occurred around 11:30, I have
made an error about the original time Captain Jones said that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take my pen and on this statement would
you want to put a circle around the 10 o'clock and make some note out
on the side that what you meant was 30 minutes before the shooting, or
whatever you think was the accurate time?
Mr. BEATY. Gosh, I don't remember. I just can't remember to save my
life what time it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How is your memory as to the fact that it was about 30
minutes before the shooting?
Mr. BEATY. Thirty minutes, may be an hour. That times passes so fast
along in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think it could have been longer than an hour?
Mr. BEATY. I don't think so; no, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be fair to say, and I want you to be very frank
about this, because I don't want to change this in any way that isn't
fair, would it be fair to change this time 10 a.m., to read----
Mr. BEATY. That it was 10 or 10:30, would that be all right, because I
don't remember?
Mr. GRIFFIN. To read a half hour or--to an hour before Oswald was shot?
Mr. BEATY. Well, I don't carry a watch so I never know what time it is
unless I ask somebody and it would be a matter of kind of remembering,
and if you want to say 10 or 10:30, that would be about the same time,
wouldn't it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be just fair to say, "I am not certain about the
exact time?"
Mr. BEATY. That would be fine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wish you would do this in your own handwriting and write
in there, "I am not certain about the time."