Captain TALBERT. Compared with the other, yes. And Chief Batchelor was
standing just to the left front of the vehicle, and--I can't draw it in
there with this circle correctly, but--we'll indicate that "18," Capt.
O. A. Jones was standing to my left, or to the rear of the vehicle
from me. Indicating that to be "19," and at the time that vehicle was
attempting to back up, we had pushed them back far enough for it to
maneuver. At the time it was attempting to back up, there was a muffled
report, a muffled shot and bedlam broke out in the vicinity of the jail
office entry into the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the shot?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I heard it, but did not see the shot and that
there was my first knowledge that the prisoner was in the ramp area.
Mr. HUBERT. Which way were you facing just before the shot?
Captain TALBERT. Just before the shot, I was facing the crowd. I had
faced, alternately, the automobile and the crowd, as we were attempting
to get the thing back, and I was facing the crowd and could feel the
automobile pushing against me, I was turning around and pushing back
against the car, and as I made a little room, faced the crowd again and
pushed them back.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Lieutenant Pierce's car leave?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I didn't see Lieutenant Pierce's car leave,
because of the news media across "Area A." They screened it from me and
also because of my preoccupation of getting these two plain cars up
behind the armored vehicle.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ruby?
Captain TALBERT. I know his face. I know his name. I know his
reputation well. I don't know him personally.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever met him before?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him that day?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean after the shot?
Captain TALBERT. After the shot, yes, sir. I'm sorry. After the shot,
or after this muffled report, I went over the back of the trunk of this
automobile we were trying to back in. Because of these people pushing
in I couldn't get--so, I went over the back trunk of it to get to the
officers. I saw they were down, and the melee that was taking place,
as news media was crowding around in on them, and I give them a little
room, and saw both Oswald and another man there who was being dragged
into the jail office by the other officer. As soon as we got some room
for them to drag them in, I shouted to the top of the entrance both
on Commerce and on Main--this may not give you the perspective scope
correctly, but it is about 90 feet on--from the place of the shooting
to the Main Street entrance. I shouted up to the entrance, "let nobody
out," or "nobody out," or something to that effect, and shouted to the
top past the armored car the same thing. "Nobody out," and officers on
this door told them, "Nobody out," and then went into the jail office,
and Ruby was lying on the jail office floor where--with the officers at
the time, attempting to handcuff him, as I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him at that point?
Captain TALBERT. I saw his face. That I recognized, but I didn't
recognize him as "Ruby." I asked a question, and may I say this in
front of the young lady? I have to apologize. Do you want it verbatim?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes. I'm afraid so.
Captain TALBERT. I asked the question--I said, "Who is this
son-of-a-bitch?" And he was saying, "I'm Jack Ruby. Everybody knows me.
I'm Jack Ruby." At the same time another officer, or perhaps to answer
that--"That's Jack Ruby, he operates the Carousel Club."
Mr. HUBERT. That was when you first recognized him?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. As being someone that you knew?
Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You had not seen him prior to that time on that, day, to
your knowledge?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir, nor for 2 years prior to that, to my
knowledge. Approximately 2 years prior to that I was having breakfast
at the Pancake House at the Ramada Inn with other officers when a man
going out--we were sitting down and the man was going out and passed
by and stopped. Was--and he was obtrusively friendly with the other
officer, one of them he knew. He knew Lieutenant Pierce who was with
me, and Lieutenant Pierce introduced me to him, and from that point
until the point where he was on the floor at the jail office, I don't
recall having seen him, and the only reason that I remember the Pancake
incident, it was after the incident I was reminded of the incident by
Lieutenant Pierce. I don't recall of having met him at any time since
the old days of his operation at the Silver Spur.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him, or see him after that?
Captain TALBERT. No, sir, I asked--at that time. I didn't know they had
the gun. I didn't see the gun, so, I thought it was still in the crowd,
and I asked Chief Batchelor for permission to put all of the news media
in the police assembly room for interrogation, or somebody said, "I
don't think we have the gun." One of the officers who was kneeling on
Ruby--literally, you couldn't hardly see Ruby for this officer kneeling
on him--said, "I have the gun." Or perhaps he said, "Graves has the
gun." And then I told Chief Batchelor that it wouldn't be necessary to
search them.
I got a batch of memo pads from the jail office and gave some of them
to Sergeant Everett, passed some out myself, told the officers to get
the names, identification and location at the time of the shooting of
anyone before they let them out of the basement. Chief Batchelor had
told me to go to Parkland and secure it. I immediately got in my car,
got on there and told the dispatcher to gather up all of my squads
and to have them to report to me code 3, at Parkland and followed the
ambulance out to Parkland.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that Ruby had stated that he had
come down the Main Street ramp?
Captain TALBERT. I started my own investigation. Of course, I had
nothing to do with this official investigation of the incident in the
basement, but it is only natural that a police officer and a police
supervisor is going to instigate his own investigation. I started mine
from the hospital on the phone, and that question would be impossible
to answer. I may have heard it through the news media. I heard--may
have heard it through another officer who had overheard what they said
up in the jail. It could have been something of that sort. I couldn't
tell you exactly, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you, in fact, conduct an independent investigation of
your own?
Captain TALBERT. Just a very cursory one, and during a very brief
period until the official investigation got underway.
Mr. HUBERT. How long a time would that have been?