The testimony of M. W. Stevenson was taken at 7 p.m., on March 23,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Assistant Deputy Chief M. W.
Stevenson of the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. Stevenson, my name Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29,
1963, joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure
adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and
the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition
from you.
Mr. Stevenson, I state to you now, that the general nature of the
Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the
facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and in particular as to
you, Mr. Stevenson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine
what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent
facts that you may know about the general inquiry.
Mr. Stevenson, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general
request made by the general counsel of the staff of the President's
Commission.
Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day
written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. But the rules
provide also that a witness may waive this notice of the taking of his
deposition. Are you willing to waive this notice in time?
Mr. STEVENSON. I am; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you rise and be sworn, please.
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. STEVENSON. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, your age, your
residence, and your occupation, and how long you have been in that
occupation?
Mr. STEVENSON. M. W. Stevenson. I am 60 years of age. I reside at 3452
Boulder Drive. I am with the Dallas Police Department. Have been for 36
years.
Mr. HUBERT. What position do you now occupy with the Dallas Police
Department?
Mr. STEVENSON. I am deputy chief, commanding the criminal investigation
division.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hold that same position during the period November
22 to 24 of 1963?
Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held that position?
Mr. STEVENSON. Since November of 1954.
Mr. HUBERT. Generally speaking, what are the functions of your job?
What are your duties and responsibilities?
Mr. STEVENSON. I am in command of the criminal investigation division,
and as such, I am responsible for the criminal investigation division
of the Dallas Police Department.
I coordinate the work among the five bureaus which constitute the
criminal investigation division.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state what those bureaus are, please, sir?
Mr. STEVENSON. I have a homicide and robbery bureau, an automobile
theft bureau; I have a juvenile bureau; a burglary and theft bureau;
and a forgery bureau.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us now who was in charge of each of those
bureaus during the period November 22-24, of 1963?
Mr. STEVENSON. Captain Fritz was in charge of the homicide bureau as
the immediate supervisor. Captain Jones was in charge of the forgery
bureau. Captain Nichols was off that day, and I don't know which
lieutenant was on.
Mr. HUBERT. You say, "that day." I was really speaking of the 3-day
period.
Mr. STEVENSON. Captain Nichols, I am sorry, was in charge of the
automobile theft bureau. Capt. F. M. Martin was in charge of the
juvenile bureau. Capt. W. C. Fannin was in charge of the burglary and
theft bureau.
Mr. HUBERT. Just to get the record clear, insofar as Captain Nichols is
concerned, you indicate he was off on 1 day of the 3-day period. Which
day was that?
Mr. STEVENSON. I believe that was the 24th.
Mr. HUBERT. Now each one of these bureau chiefs reports to you and is
responsible to you, is that correct?
Mr. STEVENSON. That's right; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who are you responsible to?
Mr. STEVENSON. To the assistant chief of police.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?
Mr. STEVENSON. Chief Charles Batchelor.
Mr. HUBERT. In the course of this examination, it would be helpful to
us if you would try to state an approximate time as to each episode or
fact that you testify to, and also indicate whether the fact or matter
or episode that you are testifying to is within your own knowledge;
that is to say, gained from your own observation, or whether the
information you give us was obtained from someone else, in that case,
tell us if you can remember who gave you the information.
Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you just give us briefly an account of what you
did from about 12:30 on November 22 on forward.
Mr. STEVENSON. At about or approximately 12:30 p.m., on the 22d, I was
at the Trade Mart on Industrial, as I had charge of the officers and
the security of the building for the luncheon of President Kennedy.
At about 12:30, approximately, I was notified by Secret Service Agent
Grant and Captain Souter that the President had been shot. We didn't
know how severe. It was stated that he was on the way to the hospital.
I immediately contacted Captain Fritz and two of his homicide men and
relieved them from their assignment at the Trade Mart and assigned them
to the investigation. As soon as I had done that, I relieved 13 other
detectives and supervisors. I believe it was 13. I told them to notify
headquarters they were available for assignment, and if no assignment,
to report to the Texas Book Depository, as it was reported that there
was a possibility the suspect might still be in the building.
After that, as fast as I could safely in my own opinion relieve the
balance of men who I had on duty, because it had not been announced to
the entire group there what had happened--that was at the request of
the Secret Service that we didn't want a stampede there--as fast as I
could relieve the others, I started relieving and putting them on duty
and telling them to report to headquarters or notify headquarters they
were available for assignment and any assistance they could give.
At approximately 1 or 1:15, I would say, Mr. Eric Jonsson notified the
group of people in the Trade Mart that the President had been shot and
had succumbed. Then as soon as we could empty the building, we relieved
everyone and put them all back on duty with instructions to report to
headquarters, where we kept them on duty as long as we needed any on
any of the assignments. Chief Batchelor was still at the Trade Mart
when we finally relieved all of the men.
He and I left the Trade Mart and drove to Parkland Hospital to see if
we could render any assistance out there. When we got out there, we
found Mr. Lawson of the Secret Service. He stated he would be ready in
a few moments, to transfer the President's body to Love Field to be
flown back to Washington. He had no escort. He asked if we would escort
the hearse bearing the body to Love Field. We told him that we would.
He, and I believe it was a member of the White House staff, rode in the
car with us. We led the hearse to Love Field. Arrived at Love Field----
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time you left the hospital, approximately?
Mr. STEVENSON. I would say around 1:40, that is as near as I could say
offhand, Mr. Hubert. I would say 1:40 to 2 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. So you provided the escort for the hearse leaving the
hospital about 1:40?
Mr. STEVENSON. About 1:40 or 1:50. It's got to be somewhere in there,
because the body was not held at the hospital but a short while.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby prior to the time that he shot
Oswald?
Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you have seen pictures of him since, I take it?
Mr. STEVENSON. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. While you were at the hospital, and I would like you to
state if you can, the time you arrived there, did you see Jack Ruby at
any place around the hospital?
Mr. STEVENSON. No, I did not. In fact, I did not get out of the car.
I sat in the car by the radio while Chief Batchelor walked into the
hospital to see if we could be of any further assistance.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time that you arrived there, Mr.
Stevenson?
Mr. STEVENSON. I would say we arrived at the hospital around 1:40.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then go on.
Mr. STEVENSON. After we reached Love Field, the Secret Service men
loaded the casket onto the President's plane. They told us that they
had called Judge Sarah T. Hughes to administer the oath of office to
President Johnson.
She arrived in a short time. We remained at Love Field until she
administered the oath and the plane was airborne. After the President's
plane was airborne, we left and came back to the city hall. We arrived
back at the city hall around 4 o'clock, I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say city hall, do you mean police department?
Mr. STEVENSON. Police Courts Building, our headquarters.
Mr. HUBERT. For the record, I wish you would describe the relationship
between what is the police building and the municipal building of the
city hall.
Mr. STEVENSON. The Police and Courts Building is what was, until a
few years ago, the city hall proper. A new building was constructed
adjacent to this building and adjoining it just east of the Police and
Courts Building.
It is now ordinarily referred to as the city hall, the building which
is on the corner of Main, Harwood and Commerce, which is the old city
hall, now known as the Police and Courts Building, and houses the jail,
the police department, and one or two offices of our city government.
But primarily it is referred to, or should be referred to as the Police
and Courts Building.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, go on. So you arrived back at the police
department.
Mr. STEVENSON. We arrived back at the office about 4 o'clock, or maybe
a few minutes later. I went directly to the homicide bureau. Chief
Batchelor went to the administrative offices.
Before leaving the Trade Mart, I had gotten information through Captain
Souter that the suspect in the shooting of Officer Tippit had been
arrested. On the air on the way to the hospital, we heard several
squads being dispatched to Texas Theatre. I asked the dispatcher what
we had working at Texas Theatre, and he advised me that it was the
suspect who had shot Officer Tippit, that he had been arrested at the
Texas Theatre.
At that time I advised them that Chief Batchelor and myself, or "2"
and "3," as I told him, which are our call numbers, were en route to
Parkland Hospital and would be in the area and back to the office as
soon as possible. When I arrived back at the city hall I went to the
homicide bureau to see what progress on our investigation was made, I
was advised that Oswald had definitely been identified in murder of
Officer Tippit.
Mr. HUBERT. Who advised you of this?
Mr. STEVENSON. Lieutenant Wells in the homicide office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Oswald at that time?
Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I didn't; he was being interviewed, but I did
not see him.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was interviewing him?
Mr. STEVENSON. Captain Fritz and some FBI agent, I don't know who, and
I believe a Secret Service agent.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you aware now of a message that had been sent by the
FBI to the Dallas Police Department concerning the security of Oswald?
Mr. STEVENSON. Not at that time, no, sir. That was Friday afternoon?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but you didn't learn that Mr. Hoover had sent word
that great care should be taken for the security?
Mr. STEVENSON. Not at that time, I had not; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us without detail, generally speaking, of
your activities on the rest of the 22d, and the 23d.
Mr. STEVENSON. After I was advised that he had definitely been
identified and from evidence which was being checked, it looked like
he possibly might be the same man who shot the President. I returned
to my office in the administrative offices, and was in and out of
the homicide bureau on numerous times, staying in touch with the
investigation, and they were in touch with my office.
About 7 p.m., I believe it was 7, approximately 7, Oswald was filed on
for the murder of Officer Tippit, and was arraigned in the Police and
Courts Building by Justice of the Peace Dave Johnston, I believe it was.
Now at approximately, I would say, 7 or 8 o'clock, some word came to
me from Chief Curry, which apparently was from Mr. Hoover or someone
from Washington, that they wanted an agent of the FBI or Secret Service
present at all interviews. That was the first that I had heard of
anything from this, and that came to me through Chief Curry.
At about 12 midnight, I was advised by Lieutenant Wells, and I
talked to Mr. Alexander, assistant district attorney, and Mr. Jim
Allen, former first assistant district attorney and a friend of the
department, and was advised that sufficient evidence had been obtained
and that charges were being filed in the death of President Kennedy.
Mr. HUBERT. Charges against Oswald?
Mr. STEVENSON. Oswald; yes, sir. He was arraigned.
Mr. HUBERT. They did not tell you at that time, did they, what evidence
it was, but simply that it was sufficient evidence?
Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; not all of it, but they told me at that time
that they had found a rifle that they were sure was the one. They
had talked to witnesses. The officer had seen him in the Texas Book
Depository a few minutes after the shooting. He was an employee down
there. He had left the building after the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. They told you all this at the time they told you that they
had enough in their opinion to charge?
Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; charges were filed. And at about 1:30 a.m., on
the 23d, he was arraigned in the identification bureau on the charge
of murdering President Kennedy, before Judge Dave Johnston, and was
returned to his cell under guard at that time after the arraignment. I
was present at that arraignment. I was not present at the arraignment
on the Tippit case.
After he was arraigned, I returned to my office and was in my office,
the homicide office or bureau where I might have business for the
balance of the night up until about 3 o'clock, at which time the
homicide office was closed until the following morning. I remained on
duty in the administrative offices with detectives whom we had working
that night standing by for any assignments or any other information we
might get, that we wanted to investigate during the night--and left
the city hall, the Police and Courts Building at about 12:35 Saturday
afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. Now are you familiar with the lineup conducted in the
regular assembly or lineup room of the Dallas Police Department of
Oswald when some newspaper people were present?
Mr. STEVENSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us about that? First of all, what time was
it?
Mr. STEVENSON. That was a few moments after charges were filed, I
believe, by the district attorney.
Mr. HUBERT. Charges on Oswald?
Mr. STEVENSON. On Oswald in the President's death. The district
attorney, Mr. Wade, and the assistant, Mr. Alexander, were present.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you present?
Mr. STEVENSON. I did not go into the room, I just went to the door down
there. I was present when they did go down for the showup, but I did
not go into the room.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you did not look into the room?
Mr. STEVENSON. I did not go into the room. The door, of course, was
open, but I was present when they left the third floor, the homicide
office, to go down for this lineup.
Mr. HUBERT. You went down to the door of the lineup room?
Mr. STEVENSON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall looking in at all?
Mr. STEVENSON. Yes, I could look in through the open door.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see a man since identified as Jack Ruby, in that
room?
Mr. STEVENSON. Oh, no, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him say anything?
Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir. Frankly, I was not close enough. The only ones
that I could see or did see were those lined up in the front of the
room.
Mr. HUBERT. How many people were in that room, do you suppose?
Mr. STEVENSON. I would say, and this is an estimate on my part, Mr.
Hubert--I would say from 100 to 125, including officers and news media
and everything.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what security plan or actual operations were
put into effect with respect to Oswald during that period?
Mr. STEVENSON. When he left upstairs, he was taken back through the
jail office. From the jail office down, there is an elevator to the
downstairs jail office, onto the "showup stage," as we call it in the
assembly room. He was taken down through the jail; was not taken out
from there.
Now to take him into the showup room, I was not where I could see how
many officers were around him. But it was necessary to bring him from
the elevator next to the homicide bureau every time we brought him down
to interview him. At that time we would have as many as three officers
with him, and from four to half a dozen officers on the route through
to the next door.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what check was made of the people who were
allowed into the assembly room?
Mr. STEVENSON. No one was supposed to have been in the assembly room or
on the third floor except news media properly identified.
Mr. HUBERT. How was this established?
Mr. STEVENSON. We had officers at the elevators and the stairways with
instructions that unless they were an official or connected with an
official news media, they were not to be permitted on that floor unless
they had business in one of the other bureaus, and the officer was to
escort him to that bureau.
We later eliminated as much of that as we could that night by calling
the jail office. If he wanted to visit some prisoner at the jail, the
jail personnel called the bureau and were instructed as to whether a
pass would be permitted.
Mr. HUBERT. But do you know whether or not, as these newsmen and the
rest of the other news media went into the assembly room for this
lineup, whether they were checked in any way again upon entering?
Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; I don't, because when I went down to the
basement, they were already in the room. In other words, they had
already filed into the room.
Mr. HUBERT. What else do you know in general terms about the security
of Oswald when he was in the cell? I think you have already covered
when he was being moved?
Mr. STEVENSON. Yes; there was a guard on his cell at all times, and at
sometimes there were as many as two, but around the clock a guard was
placed outside his cell door. He was not permitted to converse with
other prisoners. In fact, he was placed in a cell where it would be
impossible for other prisoners to get to him.
For the arraignment in the murder of the President, he was brought from
the jail into the identification bureau, where there is a barred door
coming in to identification room from jail. He was not brought back
through the Police and Courts Building proper. He was brought directly
from the jail into the identification bureau when he was arraigned.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that takes us then to 12:30 on Saturday. You were
on duty until 12:30 a.m. on Saturday?
Mr. STEVENSON. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you come back to duty thereafter?
Mr. STEVENSON. I came back to the city hall Saturday evening about
7 or 7:15, and went immediately to the homicide bureau to check on
any further developments, and was advised that the case was building
stronger, other evidence being accumulated, and if I might go back
a little bit now, at around 1 o'clock, on Saturday morning--I am
trying to get my time straightened out here--the pertinent evidence
that we had checked in the case of Oswald's shooting of the President
was forwarded to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Laboratory in
Washington, D.C., to be processed, the rifle and other evidence as
that for fingerprints and any other evidence that might help us in the
investigation.
After I had gotten back to the city hall Saturday afternoon, through
discussion, I don't recall from whom, but in the hallway, that the
prisoner would not be transferred before 10 o'clock the next morning.
I went to Chief Batchelor and asked him about the authenticity of that
particular remark, and he said, "Yes, that's right." And I said, "Has
the press been notified?" And he said, "Yes."
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it that you first heard about the fact that
Oswald would not be moved Saturday night?
Mr. STEVENSON. Approximately 7:30 p.m., on the 23d.
Mr. HUBERT. Now just what was it you heard and what was it that was
confirmed by Batchelor?
Mr. STEVENSON. I heard, as I stated, I don't know who made the remarks,
but from the discussion in the hall, that Oswald would be moved not
before 10 o'clock the next morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Did the information that you received indicate a time of
removal the next day?
Mr. STEVENSON. Nothing but that it would not be before 10 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. It didn't say what time after 10 o'clock?
Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Batchelor tell you what time it would be after 10
o'clock?
Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir. I went to Chief Batchelor--the reason I went to
Chief Batchelor with that when I heard these remarks, I wanted to know
if the press had been told. I went to Chief Batchelor and affirmed the
fact that the statement had been made and that the press had been told.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; just go ahead then.
Mr. STEVENSON. I remained at my office in the Police and Courts
Building until approximately 10:30 Saturday night, at which time I went
home.
And returned to the Police and Courts Building at approximately 8
o'clock, Sunday morning, the 24th.
Mr. HUBERT. Now before you left your duty on Saturday night, do you
know of any plans that had been made for the transfer of Oswald and the
security of that transfer?
Mr. STEVENSON. No, sir; not on Saturday night, to my knowledge, I don't
recall.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then, proceed to Sunday, please, sir.
Mr. STEVENSON. I arrived at the basement of the Police and Courts
Building at approximately 8 o'clock. Maybe 8:15.
I believe Chief Batchelor arrived at about the same time, and Chief
Curry either came in near that time or a few minutes later. Now, I
don't recall.
When Chief Batchelor and I were in the basement; we observed a Captain
Talbert had already started setting up security in the basement and on
the streets outside.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you describe what you mean when you say he had already
started setting up security?
Mr. STEVENSON. He had placed officers on the Commerce Street side of
the city hall at the top of the ramp.
There was two or three officers at that time, we observed, in the
basement. And I believe Captain Talbert was in the basement, and one of
the sergeants, possibly Sergeant Dean. I could be wrong on Dean being
there at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. That was when you first came in?
Mr. STEVENSON. That was when we first arrived at the city hall. It
was too early at that time to see just where we would want the men
assigned, or where he would have them assigned, rather, because I was
not assigning the men to security other than being of any assistance
to the men in my division that I could possibly be. Chief Curry, Chief
Batchelor, and myself looked over the basement shortly after, or I
would say 8:45. Chief Curry observed a large TV camera sitting back in
the alcove as you go into the double doors into the Police and Courts
Building of the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the basement side of those double doors, or on the
jail side?
Mr. STEVENSON. That was just outside the jail windows after you get
through the double doors from inside the Police and Courts Building.
It was sitting outside the doors in the part of what is a part of the
basement.
Mr. HUBERT. I see.
Mr. STEVENSON. He instructed that the camera would have to be moved
and moved across the driveway into the parking area proper. He also
instructed at that time, I believe it was at that time, that the two
cars that were parked, I would say it was a squad car and a plain car,
in spaces one and two, as I will refer to them, were directly across
from the door leading out of the basement, that they would be moved and
those spaces left unoccupied, no cars would be parked in there.
Mr. HUBERT. Chief Stevenson, I have before me the chart of the basement
area including the jail office and parking area and the ramps and so
forth. I am going to date it, and I am doing so now, "Dallas, Tex.,
March 23, 1964, as Exhibit 5050," in the deposition of Chief M. W.
Stevenson. I am signing it with my own name, and I am going to ask you
to sign it just below mine, because in your testimony from now on out,
I am going to ask you to refer to this chart and put certain positions
down on it.
Now, when you mentioned just now, a moment ago when you said that Chief
Curry asked that two cars in spots one and two be moved off, would you
indicate on Exhibit 5050 by putting "Spot 1," and "Spot 2," what cars
he was talking about?
(Writing on chart.)
Mr. STEVENSON. Right here.