_Resolved_, That a committee be appointed, to join with
such committee as the Senate may appoint, to confer on the
disagreeing votes of the two Houses, upon the report of
their joint committee, appointed to consider what titles
shall be given to the President and Vice President of the
United States, if any other than those given in the
constitution.
Messrs. MADISON, PAGE, BENSON, TRUMBULL, and SHERMAN were the committee
elected.
_Impost Bill._
The House then went into a Committee of the Whole on the bill for laying
a duty on goods, wares, and merchandises imported into the United
States. Mr. PAGE in the chair.
The question on laying a duty on molasses being under consideration:
Mr. TUCKER.--Notwithstanding I am anxious for a reduction of the duties
on all the articles in the bill, yet my vote on molasses will be
regulated by what the committee shall determine in other cases, as I do
not conceive it to be out of proportion. If a general reduction takes
place on the other articles, I shall be disposed to make a reduction on
this article; but as mine is but a single vote, gentlemen may not be
inclined to favor my proposition for a general reduction in order to
gain my assent to a reduction on this particular article.
Mr. GOODHUE was of opinion that the duties were too high for collection;
but he did not agree with the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. TUCKER)
that the duty on molasses was rated in proportion to the other articles,
and therefore the question, whether molasses shall be reduced or not,
did not depend on a general reduction, but on its own bottom; if it was
rated too high for collection and proportion, the committee would agree
to reduce it.
Mr. FITZSIMONS expected the gentleman from South Carolina would vote in
the manner he had pledged himself; he had promised to vote for reducing
the duty on molasses if the committee reduced the duty on other
articles; now, as they had decided against a reduction, he hoped the
gentleman would be in favor of the duty on molasses, as it stood in the
bill, and not vote in the manner he had promised.
Mr. TUCKER.--The gentleman last up has certainly misunderstood me. I
made no promise. I said my vote would depend upon the reduction of the
other articles, but I was indifferent as to rum; I did not consider the
State I represented as being either particularly benefited or injured by
a duty on rum; and therefore did not urge any arguments in favor of
reducing that article, more than I thought it might be proper to
preserve the ratio, as fixed by the House, between the several articles.
If gentlemen think rum can bear a high duty, and be safely collected, I
have no objection to letting it remain. But there are some articles that
bear heavily and unequally upon South Carolina; now, I think it my duty
to vote in such a manner as to prevent her from bearing an undue
proportion of the tax to be collected; I am, consequently, obliged to
vote for a high tax on articles used in other States, (if my State is
highly taxed,) however unequally it may fall. I shall therefore vote so
as to endeavor to oblige other States to bear their true proportion of
the aggregate sum. I wish to defer any determination on the article of
molasses until we have gone through the other articles, that I may know
how to vote on this. If gentlemen think my single vote of no
consequence, they may proceed; but I may think the duty too high on
molasses, and may be disposed to make it five cents, or less, if a
reduction is made in the other articles; but I would not be understood
to pledge myself for any particular sum.
Mr. AMES thought the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. FITZSIMONS) had
misunderstood the gentleman from South Carolina (Mr. TUCKER) respecting
his pledging himself to vote in favor of molasses. He believed the
gentleman from South Carolina incapable of making any improper
accommodation either on this or any other occasion; the subject had
never been mentioned to him, nor he believed to any body else, much less
could the gentleman's intention be the result of bargain or compromise.
For his own part, he would never consent to such a degradation of his
rights as a member of the House, as to stipulate for the exercise of his
opinion.
Mr. TUCKER.--If the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. FITZSIMONS)
supposes that I have bargained to vote for or against any measure, he
does me wrong; and if he charges me with such actions, I desire he may
state his reasons and explain himself. I did not hear perfectly what he
said when he was up before, and therefore did not refute any improper
construction he might have put on my arguments.
Mr. FITZSIMONS had no difficulty in declaring his meaning. He understood
when the article of rum was under consideration, that the gentleman held
out a promise to vote for the reduction of the duty on molasses, if the
committee would agree with him in reducing generally. This promise was
not made in a private manner; it was made by the gentleman in his place.
He could not recite the particular expression of the gentleman, but he
understood from it that the gentleman pledged himself to reduce the duty
on molasses, if the gentlemen from the Eastern States would join him in
a general reduction.
Mr. TUCKER.--I expressed a wish for a general reduction to take place
throughout the whole system; but I never made a promise with regard to a
reduction of any particular article.
Mr. SENEY observed, that the discussion of molasses had been deferred
when the subject was last before the House, in order to give time for a
full investigation; but he conceived that no such reason now existed, in
favor of its lying over, and therefore hoped the House would proceed to
decide upon it.
Mr. AMES was willing to proceed to the consideration of that subject; he
did not wish it deferred to the end of the list, that it might be held
over them _in terrorem_. There were several articles in the list, which
he did not conceive to be taxed too high for collection, or out of
proportion with others, therefore it was likely they would not be
reduced. If this was the case, the reduction would not be general, and
the gentleman from South Carolina might not think it his duty to favor
the reduction of molasses. He wished every article to stand upon its own
bottom. If molasses was too high, the committee would lower it; if not,
they will continue it at the rate it is, and the business would be done
with. If the committee were disposed to proceed, he was ready to take up
the subject.
Mr. CARROLL saw no reason for postponing the business at this time. When
the subject was suspended on a former occasion, several gentlemen from
Massachusetts were absent on business, but it was surely unnecessary now
to have any delay. After the repeated discussions it had undergone, he
was satisfied gentlemen were prepared for a decision, and he hoped the
question might be taken, and the committee proceed to get through the
business. Gentlemen should consider the daily loss which the revenue
sustained by the delay of this bill; he cautioned them against
considering overmuch, and letting slip the opportunity they now had to
supply the public wants.
Mr. WADSWORTH would not go over the old ground, and enumerate all the
reasons why a reduction of the duty on this article should take place.
He satisfied himself with saying it was out of proportion, and too high
ever to be collected with certainty; he wished the committee to lower it
to three or four cents, and apply to an excise for the deficiency, not
conceiving an excise on distilled spirits to be inconvenient or
unpopular.
Mr. AMES was sensible that any further discussion of the present subject
was unpleasant, nay, it was painful to the committee; but he had such
impressions on his mind with regard to its importance, that he must
trespass on them again. On all subjects demonstration is desirable, but
there is only one science capable of complete demonstration. Many other
sciences admit of different degrees of demonstration; but of all the
sciences on earth, the science of politics is the least capable of
affording satisfactory conclusions, while it is the one that, from its
importance, requires the greatest degree of certainty; because when we
are to consider those things which relate to the welfare of nations, it
is of consequence, and nothing can be more desirable than that we adopt
just principles in order to come at proper conclusions. In this science
it is dangerous to adopt the visionary projects of speculators instead
of principle. We ought to be cautious, therefore, in selecting the
information upon which we form our system.
He trusted to make it appear in the course of his arguments, that the
propriety of the particular measure under discussion depended upon local
knowledge, and yet it would be found of national concern. He believed it
could be clearly proved to be as much the interest of one part as of
another to have the duty reduced.
It was laid down as a principle that all duties ought to be equal. He
believed, if gentlemen gave themselves time for consideration, they
would not contend this duty was equal. He said he had made some
calculations, which demonstrated the inequality to a very surprising
degree. The tax operated in two ways: first, as a tax on a raw material,
which increased the price of stock and narrowed the sale; and second, as
a tax on an article of consumption. It required the distillation and the
consumption to be equal in every part of the Union to render the duty
equal in its operation; but no gentleman contended that the consumption
or distillation was equal. The gentleman from Virginia said, on a former
occasion, that Massachusetts would not contribute her proportion of the
national revenue, because her exports were not equal to the Southern
States, and of consequence her imports are less; but if this fact is
examined, it will be found that she does export in full proportion with
the Southern States. Examine her custom-house books, and you will find
it; but Massachusetts is greatly concerned in navigation, and the wages
of her seamen ought to be added to the amount of the profits of her
industry. Then if we consider her consumption, we shall find it in
proportion also. Admitting the people of New England to live more
moderate than the opulent citizens of Virginia or Carolina, yet they
have not such a number of blacks among them, whose living is wretched;
consequently, the average consumption per head will be nearly the same.
The fact is, that all taxes of this nature will fall generally in
proportion to the ability to pay.
Laying a heavy duty on molasses incurs the necessity of allowing a
drawback on country rum. By this system, we may lose more revenue than
we gain; anyhow, it will render it very uncertain. It is a question of
some importance, whether it would not be beneficial to the United States
to establish a manufacture which would be very lucrative. But waiving
that consideration, he would ask gentlemen, if there was any propriety
in taxing molasses in its raw state, with a duty intended to be laid on
rum? Certainly this had better be by way of excise. In this mode the
revenue would escape fraud by smuggling, which would otherwise be
unavoidable. The tax was such a temptation, being thirty per cent. upon
its value, that no checks could prevent a clandestine trade being
carried on.
Without the molasses trade is continued, the fishery cannot be carried
on. They are so intimately connected, that the weapon which wounds the
one will stab the other. If by such measures as these we ruin one of the
most valuable interests of the United States, will not the people have a
right to complain that, instead of protecting, you injure and destroy
their pursuits? He did not mean to say that the people would form
unwarrantable combinations; but their exertions to support the
Government will be damped; they will look with chagrin on the
disappointment of their hopes; and it will add to their vexation that
they have been deceived under the most flattering appearances; for who
could conceive that a Government, constructed and adopted in the manner
this has been, could ever be administered to the destruction of that
welfare which it was formed to support?
He recommended experience as the best guide, and said, that it was
decidedly against high duties, particularly on molasses; and concluded
with appealing to the justice and wisdom of the committee for a
determination on this subject.
Mr. CARROLL would not take up the time of the committee with saying a
word on the main subject, but begged them to consider of how much
importance it was to the Union to get this bill into operation. If every
article was to be again debated in the manner it had already been, he
could see no end to the business. Unless gentlemen could advance some
new and weighty arguments, he thought the time misspent in
recapitulating those that had been unsuccessfully urged twice or three
times before.
Mr. MADISON thought the arguments against the duty were inconsistent. He
believed the gentlemen in opposition had not replied to an observation
he had made, and which was of great force on his mind. The gentlemen all
say that a heavy duty will ruin the distilleries and fisheries, and the
people concerned in them; yet they profess themselves willing to lay the
same duty, but in two forms instead of one. Now he would be glad to know
if the distilleries and fisheries would not be precisely in the same
situation, let which would take place?
On motion, the committee rose, and the House adjourned.
TUESDAY, May 12.
_Duties on Imports._
The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole, Mr. PAGE
in the chair, on the Impost Bill.
The article of molasses being still under consideration:
Mr. AMES wished to reply to the observation made yesterday by the
gentleman from Virginia. Does that gentleman, said he, recollect, if we
lay an excise, we prevent the burthen from being imposed upon the poor
for their subsistence, as molasses, in the raw state, will be lightly
taxed? In the next place, it is more favorable to the importers of that
article than the impost; it does not require so large a proportion of
their capital to be advanced in payment of duties, nor do they run the
risk of bad debts, because it may be so regulated that the retailer
shall secure the duty. Another reason is, it will save the expense of a
numerous host of custom-house officers, tide-waiters, &c. These
considerations proved, that if the excise was no better than an impost,
it was no worse; and as the duty would be better collected, and give
less reason for smuggling, which, above all things, was dangerous to the
revenue, it was sufficient to warrant the committee in giving the excise
duty a preference.
Mr. GOODHUE would not trouble the House long on the subject; but begged
leave to repeat the manner in which the molasses trade was connected
with the fisheries, and the fisheries with the navigation; that, if the
first is injured, the other two are wounded through its side. About
three-fifths of all the fish that are put up for that market, are of an
inferior quality, and would not sell elsewhere. The French would not
permit us to carry them there, but because we take their molasses in
exchange; they will not let their colonies send the molasses to France,
lest it interfere with their brandy. Now, any impediment to the
exportation of molasses, will prevent the exportation of fish; if we
cannot export the fish, for what purpose shall we continue our
fisheries? And if they are given up, how are we to form seamen to man
our future navy?
Mr. MADISON said his mind was incapable of discovering any plan that
would answer the purpose the committee have in view, and not produce
greater evils than the one under consideration. He thought an excise
very objectionable, but as no actual proposition for entering into such
a system was before the committee, he forbore to say any thing further
about it. He admitted an excise would obviate in part some of the
difficulties; but he did not think the answer given to his argument
altogether satisfactory; yet there was another argument he urged on a
former occasion remaining unanswered--it was, that, at this moment, the
fisheries, distilleries, and all their connections, were laboring under
heavier duties than what is now proposed; true, the duty is collected in
a different mode, but it affects the consumer in the same manner. The
gentlemen have said, to be sure, that the duty is evaded; but if half is
collected, it amounts to more than six cents per gallon.
It is said that a tax on molasses will be unpopular, but not more so
than a tax on salt. Can gentlemen state more serious apprehensions in
the former than the latter case? yet the committee did not forego a
productive fund, because the article was a necessary of life, and in
general consumption. If there is the disposition that is represented for
people to complain of the oppression of Government, have not the
citizens of the Southern States more just ground for complaint than
others? The system can only be acceptable to them, because it is
essentially necessary to be adopted for the public good.
Gentlemen argue, that a tax on molasses is unpopular, and prove it by
experience under the British Government. If this is to be adduced as a
proof of the popularity of a measure, what are we to say with respect to
a tax on tea? Gentlemen remembered, no doubt, how odious this kind of
tax was thought to be throughout America; yet the House had, without
hesitation, laid a considerable duty upon it. He did not imagine that a
duty on either of those articles was in itself objectionable; it was the
principle upon which the tax was laid that made them unpopular under the
British Government.
It is said that this tax is unjust; now, he had not a single idea of
justice, that did not contradict the position. If it be considered as it
relates to rum, he was certain the consumers of foreign rum paid a
larger proportion of revenue into the Treasury than the consumers of
country rum; they paid more than equal distributive justice required; if
it was considered as it respected molasses, there would appear no
injustice. Molasses was consumed in other States; but if it was not,
sugar was used in its stead, and subjected to a duty full as high as
that on molasses. But dismissing both these considerations, and even
admitting the whole weight to fall upon the Northern States, it would
not be disproportioned, because, in the long list of enumerated articles
subject to a high duty, they imported few or none; indeed, the articles
were pretty generally taxed for the benefit of the manufacturing part of
the northern community; see loaf sugar, candles, cheese, soap, &c. He
hoped gentlemen would not infer from this observation, that he thought
the encouragement held out by the bill to manufactures improper; far
from it; he was glad to see their growing consequences, and was disposed
to give them every aid in his power. From this view of the subject, he
was inclined to adhere to the bill, and not make any reduction.
Mr. GERRY hoped the committee would not consider the subject as finally
decided; he thought it deserving of further investigation, and expected
the committee would be satisfied of the propriety of making some
reduction. He felt a concern at being obliged to extend the discussion,
but his duty impelled him to oppose a measure he conceived injurious to
his country.
Gentlemen had contended, that a duty of six cents per gallon on molasses
was just and equal; for his part, he could not discover, with all the
exertions his mind was capable of making, how gentlemen prove this to be
the case; it appeared to him partial and oppressive.
The principle laid down in the constitution for an equal distribution of
taxes was, that they shall be apportioned among the several States,
according to their respective number of inhabitants. This principle is
made positive as it respects direct taxes; but he thought the equality
ought to extend itself to every possible case. The power possessed by
the House, with regard to revenue and the power of making all necessary
laws, enabled the General Government to exist independent of subordinate
associations; but if they were inclined to annihilate the State
Governments, yet it would be their interest to attend to the advantages
of the community, and administer their power so as not to make it
burthensome and oppressive. Now, he wished to know, what principle of
justice authorized the committee to lay a duty of six cents on molasses?
Unfortunately for Massachusetts, she imports a greater quantity than the
whole Union besides. This makes her interest stand alone, and her
representatives are left to labor the point, knowing the ill effect it
will have upon their constituents. Under these circumstances, it is
necessary to pay particular attention to the justice of the measure;
gentlemen should consider that, in such cases, there is danger of
interest prevailing over equity and policy. Certainly, if the measure is
pursued, we shall discover this effect in the end.
Gentlemen have considered the arguments brought against this duty as
standing upon local ground, advocating the local interest of
Massachusetts. He would examine this position. It is the interest of a
majority of the people of that State, that as much revenue should be
drawn from molasses as possible. I say it is the interest of the State,
for their interest is divided between the landed and commercial; the
landed interest predominates, and it was always supposed that the
commercial bore a greater share of the public burthen than it ought. The
conduct of the State of Massachusetts ought to be esteemed by us as the
best guide to discover how far our commercial regulations, as they
respect that State, are consistent with policy, if she furnishes the
best example. Can we find that she ever imposed a duty of six cents per
gallon on molasses? Not a single instance can be produced where she
raised revenue from this article. If they then never laid a duty upon
it, and they were disposed to get every thing in their power from
commerce, we must conclude that if it could have been laid they would
have done it. It is not the landed citizens, if he might use the term,
who consume molasses; it is the inhabitants of the sea-coast; the former
had the power, and they were interested to lay such a tax, it might
therefore be expected they would have done it, if they had not been
convinced it would have destroyed the fisheries and navigation of the
State.
The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. MADISON) cannot see how an impost on
molasses can affect the distilleries and fisheries. After having been
repeated over and over again, it would be unnecessary that he should
dwell on this point. But every one could see the connection; if we do
not import molasses, we cannot carry on our distilleries nor vend our
fish; and it will be impossible to import molasses under such heavy
duties; at least the future importation will be limited to two-thirds of
the present, because the demand will be in proportion to the increase of
price, and the merchant will not have capital to import more than
two-thirds of his usual quantity.
He would not reiterate the arguments respecting the fisheries; it was
well known to be the best nursery for seamen, the United States had no
other, and it never could be the intention of gentlemen to leave the
navigation of the Union to the mercy of foreign powers. It is of
necessity, then, that we lay the foundation of our maritime importance
as soon as may be, and this can be done only by encouraging our
fisheries. It is also well known that we have a number of rivals in this
business desirous of excluding us from the fishing banks altogether.
This consideration of itself is sufficient to induce a wise legislature
to extend every encouragement to so important a concern. In any
regulation they make, by which it can be effected, they ought to be sure
of the ground on which they go.
It appeared to him that six cents would have the most ruinous
consequences to the general interest; he therefore hoped gentlemen would
agree to reduce it, if not so as to place it among the _ad valorem_
articles, at least down to two cents. However, as the committee are not
prepared to say the particular sum proper to be laid, he hoped they
would agree to leave it a blank, to be filled up at some future stage of
the business.
The question was now taken on striking out six cents, and passed in the
affirmative: ayes 24, noes 22.
Propositions were severally made for filling up the blank with two,
three, four, and five cents; five being the highest was first put and
agreed to--ayes 25, noes 23.
The committee proceeded to consider the subsequent articles; but not
having time to go through the whole, they rose, and reported progress,
and the House adjourned.
WEDNESDAY, May 13.
The petition of John Fitch, of Pennsylvania, was presented, stating that
he is the original discoverer of the principle of applying steam-power
to the purposes of navigation, and has obtained an exclusive right
therein for a term of years, in the States of Virginia, Delaware,
Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York, and praying that his rights may
be secured to him by law, so as to preclude subsequent improvers upon
his principle from participation therein, until the expiration of his
granted right. Referred to a committee, consisting of Messrs.
HUNTINGTON, CADWALADER, and CONTEE, to report thereon.
_Duties on Imports._
The House again resolved itself into a Committee of the Whole on the
Impost Bill, Mr. PAGE in the chair.