A. That he thought with troops properly located he could take care of
it.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. In the interview you had with this committee, they stated their
views on the reduction of ten per cent.?
A. That and several other questions connected with it.
Q. When did this ten per cent. reduction take place?
A. In June.
Q. Had there been any prior reduction?
A. Yes; in 1873, we made a reduction of ten per cent.--following the
panic.
Q. Then in June you made another reduction?
A. Of ten per cent. It applied to everybody in the company--to men on
the track, and in the shops, and on the engines, and in the depots, and
every officer of the company.
By Mr. Yutzy:
Q. To all the employés?
A. To all getting above a dollar per day.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Was this last reduction made in pursuance of any arrangement with
any other road?
A. Not at all.
Q. Was there not a meeting of representatives of the trunk lines in
Chicago in May sometime, at which matters were talked over?
A. I don't know--I was not there.
Q. Was there a representative of your company present?
A. There may have been. I don't know nor whether they had up the
question of compensation to the men. Our action on the subject was
based on the general results of the business of the company, and the
necessity of some positive thing being done in aid of the company and
in aid of the men as well.
Q. The action of your company, in this reduction, was solely by
yourselves, without any understanding?
A. With the other trunk lines?
Q. Yes.
A. None whatever. I think they didn't make any reduction until July.
Q. Didn't the New York Central make a reduction about that time?
A. I think on the 1st of July.
Q. And the Baltimore and Ohio about that time?
A. Somewhere along there. I don't know the dates exactly.
Q. This reduction was arrived at by yourselves without any
understanding with other roads?
A. Yes; we thought it proper to be done. I think, and believe now, that
we were paying men then twenty per cent. above the average price paid
for an equivalent amount of labor anywhere else.
Q. Do you remember the prices paid the trainmen?
A. I don't recollect, but I can get you the data if you want them. I
don't recollect the details. Our wages differ a little on different
divisions--they are not entirely uniform. There are some places where
the living is more expensive, and there the compensation is higher.
They are paid according to locality. There are some places where the
cost of living is a great deal less than in others, and a difference is
made in wages. It is always been so both on the track and roadway and
the trainmen also.
Q. Do you know whether arrangements were made at Chicago to pool the
earnings of the three trunk lines?
A. An attempt was made.
Q. But never carried out?
A. No.
Q. You don't know whether this question of wages was discussed at that
meeting?
A. I don't know.
Q. You had no report made to you by the representative of your road who
was there?
A. No.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. To pool the entire earnings of the road?
A. No; the competitive business to avoid disagreements, and to put all
the shippers on a perfect equality, and get a fair living compensation
for doing the work to be done. Through excessive competition, very
often business was done resulting in a loss to the companies. They did
the work for a great deal less than cost, and in doing, that with
certain kinds of traffic, they did violence and injustice to other
people at other points. That was one of the troubles with the city of
Pittsburgh--perhaps their chief trouble.
Q. The purpose of it was to secure uniformity of freights?
A. And compensation to everybody.
Q. To shippers, too?
A. To shippers. In the early part of last year, the through business of
the company was done below actual cost to every road that did it.
During the first six months of last year, not a farthing was made on
through competitive freight by any line.
Q. Was that agreed upon at that meeting in Chicago?
A. They made an effort, but didn't succeed in having it carried out
practically.
Q. The trouble was in one line cutting down freights?
A. That is the allegation always--that somebody is cheating somebody
else.
Q. It was attempted to carry it into effect?
A. Yes.
Q. For how long a time did you work at it?
A. Three or four months, probably, but finally it all broke up. On
west-bound traffic we have an arrangement for a division of the
business under low established rates, by which everybody is placed on a
perfect equality. New York, a certain price, Philadelphia so much below
that, and Baltimore, so much below that. Under that arrangement, the
lines have been doing very much better than when in open warfare. I
believe now that every west-bound shipper is placed on an entire
equality.
Q. You have referred to Pittsburgh. Had there been complaints by
shippers in Pittsburgh about discrimination?
A. Always.
Q. What were the complaints?
A. That through goods were carried at a less rate per ton per mile than
their goods, and that we ought to be able to control that. I think I
have tried diligently for the last five years of my life to get an
arrangement or an agreement by which all these questions could be
adjusted, and these discriminations of every character wiped out, and I
went even to this trouble: I met a committee of merchants and
manufacturers of the city of Pittsburgh, and went over the whole case
with them. I said to them: gentlemen, there are times when it cannot be
controlled. If we succeed in making this west-bound arrangement we will
put all your interests here, so far as relates to the western markets,
on a fair equality with everything that comes into competition with you
from the east. I said so far as we are concerned, we have a strong
desire to do just what you want done, and to that end we are working,
and we will do anything we can do to bring it about; and if it should
happen in the future that we must go through other and more violent
wars than we have now passed, we will still agree that your trade in
competition with like trade--that your manufacturing interests here
shall be protected by at least ten per cent. less than the aggregate
rates from points east of you. They expressed themselves very well
satisfied with that arrangement.
Q. Can you give us any of the methods you have tried for the purpose of
preventing those complaints by the people of Pittsburgh?
A. The general endeavor is to agree upon rates, and to adhere to them
absolutely. We never charge in any case exceeding the rate charged from
a distant point. In this arrangement, I referred to, for the city of
Pittsburgh, I told them, in any possible state of things, we would make
their rates ten per cent. less than any rate prevailing from any point
east of them--Philadelphia, New York, or Baltimore. It sometimes
happened that competition ruled so strong that we carried things from
New York to Chicago lower than we did from Pittsburgh, and when engaged
in one of these little troubles, the rates are frequently changed a
dozen times in a day. Our aim always has been to put all the shippers
on our road and all the intermediate shippers on rates as low as
competition might force at the extremes. We think it is right, and
endeavor to do it. There have been isolated cases when it is not done,
as it may happen that a shipper from New York to-day will have a low
rate on some specific kind of goods, while the shipper from Pittsburgh
would be paying the rate that prevailed the day before. But whenever
such cases came to our notice we gave a drawback. Sometimes they never
came to our notice, but have been nursed up, and made a cause of
trouble and complaint. Whenever we found the difference too great we
always paid them back.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. By rebates?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. There never has been a time when the price charged from Pittsburgh
was greater than from any point beyond?
A. It never was the policy of the company that it should be so, but it
has frequently happened in isolated cases that such was the case.
Q. Has that been the case for any length of time?
A. Never--not for any length of time.
Q. For a month at a time?
A. Oh, no--a day or two.
Q. How did freights compare in July last with what they had been for
three months preceding that time?
A. They had been extremely low the whole of the year up to that time,
and were then extremely low on east-bound business. On west-bound
business on the 1st of July that arrangement was made to have a
division of the business.
Q. How were freights after the strike was over?
A. On west-bound business, the arrangement that went into operation
then is in operation now. On east-bound, every two or three weeks they
have the same chronic trouble. After making an agreement, they violate
it and break down, but as a general thing, the rates are better now
than they were a year ago.
Q. How did rates compare the fore part of last season with the year
before, at the same time?
A. Very much lower. Two reasons brought it about. First a short crop in
the fall of 1876, when there was very little freight to come
east--nothing at all equal to the facilities of the various companies,
the result being a scramble and competition to get it, and prices ruled
away below the cost of doing the work.
Q. How did the amount of freight or tonnage during the months of May
and June, 1877, compare with the months of May and June, 1876?
A. It was not so heavy, but after the harvest of last year--and it was
a heavy crop all over the west--and in consequence of the European war,
which cause a demand, the roads had better tonnage.
Q. Was there any difference in the local freights?
A. They were greater in quantity all along our line. The crops were
better.
Q. How did the local rates compare with the previous year?
A. They were on the same general basis as the previous year. I don't
think there was any change, unless we got into those violent
competitions, when we would reduce our local as well as through rates.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you ship goods or freight cheaper from New York to San Francisco
than from Pittsburgh to San Francisco, such as steel or iron?
A. I think that has occurred a number of times. The rates are made by
the Union and Central Pacific roads. At New York they come into
competition with the Pacific mail and sailing vessels around Cape Horn,
and on account of that competition, the rates are made low.
Q. Less from New York to San Francisco than from Pittsburgh?
A. Yes.
Q. Has it been the custom on your road to get a larger rate from New
York than from Pittsburgh?
A. Yes; on our road we get a larger rate from New York than from
Pittsburgh.
Q. Do you mean per ton per mile?
A. No. I mean the aggregate rate. The Pacific road fixes its own prices
from Chicago west-bound.
Q. Can you not ship freight at a less rate per ton per mile for a long
distance than for a short?
A. I think we can. It saves the intermediate handling.
Q. Do you know of any instance where iron or steel has been shipped
from Pittsburgh to New York and from there to San Francisco by rail?
A. No.
Q. Because the rates would be cheaper?
A. No. I have understood of one or two cases where drugs were sent from
Pittsburgh to New York, and these came into competition with drugs
shipped by ocean, and were then shipped on back.
Q. Did the cheap rates at New York arise from competition with water
transportation?
A. Yes; at sea. That only applies to heavy articles, about which there
is no question of time or of insurance. It may apply to heavy drugs;
but it does not apply to dry goods or groceries, or things like that.
Q. Are your local freight rates governed by your through rates in any
way?
A. To the extent that whenever through rates come down below the local
charges we reduce the local charges.
Q. Proportionately?
A. No; but we do not exceed on our local business the amount charged on
other roads.
Q. Do you reduce the rates on local traffic when you reduce them on
other traffic in equal proportion?
A. No. Say the rate from Chicago to New York is fifty cents, and the
rate from Philadelphia or Harrisburg is fifty cents, and the rate from
New York should be reduced to forty or thirty, we reduce the other
rate.
Q. To the same per centage?
A. The same gross rate.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was there any strike in the city of Philadelphia among your
employés?
A. There was some striking among the men on our trains.
Q. When did that first break out?
A. Probably a day or two after the trouble at Pittsburgh. I think the
trouble occurred here on Friday night or Saturday.
Q. Among what class of your employés.
A. The trainmen entirely.
Q. Did it include the engineers?
A. No.
Q. The brakemen, firemen, and conductors?
A. Yes; the trainmen--on freight trains.
Q. Did they interfere with your property in any way here?
A. They declined to run the trains out, and said their lives were in
danger, and the result was the trains didn't go for several days. It
didn't apply to the Northern Central road or the New York division.
Q. Did they attempt to interfere with the property of the road?
A. Destroy it?
Q. Yes?
A. Not at all. I think they felt themselves bound by some organization
that seemed to have control of them, not to do anything or allow others
to take their places, and, therefore, it was simply a stand off
policy--the trains didn't go. But they attempted no destruction of
property at all.
Q. Did it become necessary for you to call on the civil authorities
here?
A. Yes. There was a great deal of threatening all over town in regard
to the possibility of serious trouble, and we had some trouble at the
yards in West Philadelphia. Engines were taken from trains.
Q. What steps did you take for protection here?
A. I sent word down to the mayor's office about this difficulty on the
lines of the road, and that we feared that some effort might be made to
destroy our property, and that, therefore, we wanted the protection due
to every interest in our State and city--nothing more. He organized a
police force. A great many of the people of the city were alarmed about
the situation of affairs, and, I believe, they gave the mayor authority
to take on additional policemen, which he kept employed for some days,
until the threatened trouble was all over. I think his whole action in
the management of the police force under him was very efficient and
thorough.
Q. Did he respond promptly to that call?
A. Yes; and succeeded in maintaining order entirely.
Q. There was no trouble in maintaining peace and order?
A. No; excepting the exercise of a great deal of vigilance and care
with a strong force.
Q. Was it necessary for the policemen to make any attack on the crowd?
A. I think nothing serious. They had several little disturbances. The
crowd was armed and threatened trouble and all that.
Q. Did the crowd assemble in very large numbers?
A. I have been told from two to five thousand people; but they
persuaded them to disperse. I do not think there was any trouble at any
time. The mayor's policy was to prevent crowds from assembling, to
prevent disturbance, and in the conduct of the whole matter I think he
showed great wisdom and great efficiency.
Q. What day did you start your trains here?
A. From here west?
Q. Yes?
A. I think on the 27th or the 28th.
Q. Did you meet with any trouble in getting men to start them?
A. No.
Q. Was there any resistance made by the crowd?
A. Not here.
Q. Was it necessary to have any guard to protect the first trains that
started?
A. Of military?
Q. Or policemen?
A. No. There were men here about the yards and depots to see that the
peace was preserved, but they made no arrests, I believe, in connection
with people in leaving trains. They did make arrests of some people for
destroying some oil cars.
Q. On the Pennsylvania railroad?
A. On the junction road.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you, as president of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, at any
time, make any requisition on the State authorities for troops to
protect your property?
A. Not at all. The State authorities were called out, as I understood,
on a requisition from the county of Allegheny.
Q. By the sheriff?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you any knowledge of any officer of the Pennsylvania Railroad
Company calling on the Governor for troops?
A. None whatever. They, no doubt, suggested to the Governor of the
State that it was his duty to put the force in such a position as to
preserve peace and order.
Q. Did you understand that you, as president of a railroad company or
as a citizen, have the right to call on the Governor for troops, and
that the Governor has a right to respond to that?
A. No.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. In the case of an outbreak, such as existed there, to whom would you
apply for help?
A. To the civil authorities of the place, and they, in their turn, are
obliged, as I understood the law, to make the requisition. I do not
understand that I, as president of a company, have the right to make a
requisition on the Governor, but I certainly have the right to notify
him. I have no right to make a requisition.
Q. You have the right to notify him under the act of 1864?
A. I have no reference to any particular act. I never understood that a
railroad company or a mining interest or anything else had a right to
make a requisition. I always thought they had the right to state their
case, and ask that some action should be taken, letting the mayor or
sheriff, as the case may be, make his own requisition.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. It has been charged by some that the troops were ordered by the
Pennsylvania Railroad Company in their movements?
A. I think if you will ask the military officers--General Brinton--he
will tell you that he moved his troops according to his superior
officer's directions, and not at the direction of any railroad man. I
guess he was careful to do that. I certainly never asked them to move
troops to any particular place or to do any particular thing.
Q. But you conferred with the officers or advised them?
A. No; I conferred with the Governor of the State, and he gave his
orders through his officers. I didn't give them any orders. I did give
them every facility they asked for, just as we did with the Government
of the United States when they got into the rebellion, when we stopped
all our business for a time, and gave our road completely to carry men
and equipments, and whatever they might require for the field or
elsewhere. We gave them entire control of our road.
Q. Do you say you never made any requisition on the State authorities
for protection?
A. We stated our case to them, and said we are in great danger, and the
highways of the State are in great danger, and we want that protection
which it is our right to have.
Q. As every other citizen of the State, you would have the right to
demand protection?
A. I think we all pay for peace and order to be preserved in the State,
and it ought to be.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. Then you never did dictate to the Governor, or to any one in his
absence, what to do with the military?
A. Not a bit. I was especially careful not to do anything of that kind.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. State if you have been able to ascertain or to gather facts
sufficient to form a judgment as to what produced the strike?
A. I think the trouble originated through the discontent of men all
over the country--not confined to railroads. Every other branch in some
how was directly or indirectly connected with the outbreak, looking for
compensation of an increased character, without regard to whether
parties were able to pay it or not, and altogether, I think that whole
movement was made up--either agreed upon or concerted and agreed upon
under their own mode of organization. I think they took this abatement
of ten per cent. as one pretext for making the outbreak.
Q. What facts have you that lead you to believe it was a concerted
movement or agreed upon?
A. Simply their action, and the results spread before us everywhere.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Is the pay of railroad employés less, as a general thing, than that
of any other ordinary avocation?
A. No; I think it is greater; and I think it ought to be a little
greater, because the men are subject to risks in railroading, that they
are not subject to in ordinary work; therefore, I think it is the duty
of railroad companies to pay a little more for that service than is
paid for an equal amount of labor in the ordinary channels of life. I
think we pay twenty per cent. more to-day than men receive in the
various other channels of business.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Are they subject to greater expense than others?
A. Yes; by reason of going from their homes, their extra cost of living
is something.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. And in one sense you call it skilled labor, in addition to the risks
they run?
A. Yes; we want men understanding their duties to run our trains and
take care of the property and of the people in their charge. We want
that in all the men, and, I think, as a general thing, we have as good
a set of men as was ever organized.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was there any complaint among the men about their not being able to
work full time?
A. Yes; when the depression of business came so strong, we undertook to
retain more men in our service than were needed to do the work, and we
did that very often at the request of men--of the older men, in order
that younger men might have an opportunity to get some work and get a
living out of the general result. Instead of men getting ten hours work
they would probably get an average of six, seven, or eight hours, and
in that way the work was distributed among a greater number of people.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You did that instead of discharging them?
A. Yes; the result of that was that it made the average low, and was a
cause of complaint, and when this thing was all over, we had simply to
compromise and in giving more hours of work, consequently, to do with
fewer men.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Looking at the matter from the experience you have, was that plan of
retaining more men than you could give full work to a good one?
A. No; it caused dissatisfaction to the men, and caused them to
complain, I think unreasonably and unjustly against the company,
because the company, so far as it was concerned, was perfectly willing
to pay that number of dollars for the service done, but it was
distributed among so many that instead of their getting fifty dollars,
say, per month, they would get thirty or forty, perhaps. Very many of
the oldest men had their sympathies aroused in favor of men, and wanted
them retained even if they could not get full time, and asked us to do
that thing in many instances; but it resulted just in that discontent I
have mentioned. Now we have changed our policy, and endeavor to give
our men nearly as full time as we can, and in that give our oldest men
and thoroughly loyal men, of course, the preference.
Q. From your experience and knowledge of the number of railroad men in
the country, is there a surplus?
A. There is to-day.
Q. There are men out of employment?
A. Yes; the depression in the iron business, and coal business, and
lumber business, and everything else, makes less traffic, and a greatly
decreased number of trains. This decrease has made a corresponding
decrease in the demand for men. We hope one day that it will change,
and we can take on all our people and pay them better wages than now;
but we cannot do it until the country becomes more prosperous than now.
Q. Did this number of men out of employment have a tendency to produce
restlessness among them, and bring on the trouble?
A. There is no question about that. It was the want of employment that
made the labor of the country dissatisfied. I think if we could set men
to work making a living for themselves and their families, I think
there would be no trouble about it. I think it is the best law that can
be made.
Q. It was more that, in your judgment, that caused the trouble than low
wages?
A. I think so.
* * * * *
George R. Sowden, _sworn_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. I live in west Philadelphia, No. 1421 Locust street.
Q. What is your business?
A. I am a practicing lawyer.
Q. Go on and state what knowledge you have of the occurrences at
Pittsburgh last July, and the movements of the militia?
A. During last summer I was colonel of the Third regiment of infantry,
connected with the First brigade of the First division. I was in the
brigade commanded by General Mathews. On the evening of Friday, July
20, I got a dispatch from him, asking me to assemble my regiment, and
report for duty as soon as possible at the West Philadelphia depot. I
got the dispatch at Bryn Mawr. I got to Philadelphia at nine o'clock,
and sent out dispatches to my field officers and staff officers and
company commanders, and I assembled part of my regiment there, and at
two o'clock of Saturday, July 21, I went on the train to Pittsburgh. We
reached there about two o'clock on Saturday. There the troops were
ordered out of the train, and we moved up the railroad track. I was on
the left of Colonel Benson, and in my rear was the Weccacoe Legion and
the Keystone Battery. They were dragging the Gatling guns at that time
without horses, but it was found impossible to drag the guns over the
railroad ties, and men were detailed from the three regiments to assist
in hauling the guns. I sent a detail for that purpose. After we got in
to the neighborhood of Twenty-eighth street--I do not know in the
meantime what had become of the Second brigade--I was facing west on
the railroad track seventy-five yards below the crossing on
Twenty-eighth street, and the rear of my command was towards the hill.
Q. Facing toward the hill?
A. No; I was facing toward the Allegheny river, forming a straight
line. Some little time after I was there, the crowd of rioters formed
in front of us, and also on my left flank, and, as I was in a straight
line, I withdrew my left flank, so as to connect and form an angle with
the balance of the brigade, to keep the rioters from coming in behind
us. General Mathews approved of the partial change of front. At that
time, there was an enormous crowd of people on the hill back of us, and
in front of us, and there was a good deal of noise and confusion. After
we had been there some little time, there was some firing of pistol
shots; and stones, and brickbats, and clubs, and every thing of that
sort were fired at us, and, presently firing began among the troops on
my right, and also on the other side. The brigade at one time formed
three sides of a hollow square. The firing by the people began, as I
saw, from the hill. That was the first I saw. That was, the firing at
the troops. After some little firing on their part, the troops began
the return fire. My men I didn't permit to fire until on Saturday
afternoon, as I had received no orders to fire, and didn't see the
immediate occasion for firing. I restrained my men from firing. Then,
after this general firing on the right, a great many people on the hill
were killed, and some of the rioters in front on twenty-eighth street
were also killed. In the mean time, we were all surrounded, where I
was, by the rioters.
Q. Did you hear any command given to fire?
A. No; I did not. There was no command to fire. I got no command to
fire.
Q. Were there any shots fired by the mob before there was any firing by
the militia?
A. Yes; a great many.
Q. Pistol shots?
A. Mostly pistol shots, and, I think, there were two or three gun shots
from the side hill fired at us.
Q. What other demonstrations were made by the crowd, before the firing
took place on the soldiers?
A. I was some distance from what you call the right of the brigade, on
Twenty-eighth street. I had my hands pretty full where I was, and
didn't pay much attention to what was going on there. In front of me
some rioters showed pistols, and wanted to go through my lines. I
refused to let them. They threatened what they would do with me and my
men, and also tried to seduce the men from the lines. They were saying
we are all workingmen, and you won't fire on workingmen. In this way
they endeavored to break up the morals and discipline of the command. I
drove them away without using violence, so far as I could, and kept
them at a distance of from three or four yards.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What was the general conduct of the whole command?
A. Do you mean of the brigade?
Q. Your men?
A. It was very good. For raw troops, it was excellent. I have seen
troops in the field that didn't behave nearly as well as the men in my
command. Most of them are boys, and, like young colts, were a little
skittish at the first fire; but finding they didn't get killed, they
stood to their work very handsomely.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Had any of your command ever seen actual service during the late
war?
A. Yes; I have seen service, and some of my officers and some of the
men.
Q. What proportion of them?
A. I should say ten per cent. on an average. Perhaps more.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What was the general conduct of the division as a whole?
A. I cannot speak of that because I didn't see the Second brigade, and
didn't know where it was; but the general conduct of the troops was
excellent.
Q. From the commencement of the trouble?
A. Yes; in my judgment there was as good discipline, and order, and
soldierly behavior on the part of the officers and men, as there would
be in an army in the field, and much better than I have seen at times,
in case of disaster. I was in the field about two years, and served
under Generals McClellan, and Burnside, and Hooper, and Mead. I joined
the army at Antietam, and served in the Pennsylvania Reserves at
Fredericksburg, with the Third division, under General Reynolds, and
was at Chancellorsville and Gettysburg.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. In what capacity did you serve in the army?
A. First as orderly sergeant, and I was then made first lieutenant and
captain. I was on General Doubleday's staff part of the time. After
this general firing had taken place on Saturday afternoon, we were
moved down into the round-house. Some reason was given that we were
sent to guard the property. We went into the round-house about dusk,
and a little later--between seven and eight o'clock--I was following
Colonel Benson, and was given that part of the house to guard opposite
Liberty street, about seventy-eight feet long, and was instructed to
put out sentries along the line and inside the house to guard the
windows, with orders to keep the mob outside back from the windows, and
observe their operations, and not to fire without orders. There was
great confusion and tumult outside, and a great deal of yelling and
screaming, and some firing, and we could scarcely show ourselves at the
windows until the mob outside began to throw bricks and direct pistol
shots at us, but my men, owing to the orders I had given, didn't fire
at all. Occasionally I went to see if the sentinels were on duty and
obeying orders. About one o'clock I was lying on a board, when I heard
a sentinel call for the sergeant of the guard on this line of
Twenty-eighth street, and I immediately went over, taking a posse with
me, to learn the cause of the alarm, when I found a large crowd around
a field piece, apparently loading it, and preparing to fire. I
immediately sent my adjutant to notify General Mathews--to notify him
of the fact, and request his attendance. While my adjutant was going
for General Mathews, he met General Brinton, and brought him, and
General Mathews turned up at the same time. We held a council. The
piece was ready to be discharged, and was pointed toward where I was
told the Second brigade was. Then it was determined to disperse the
mob. I cannot say now whether any intimation was given to them at the
time to leave or we should fire--I am not positive--but I think there
was.
Q. Warning you mean?
A. Yes. I am not positive; but they had a light, and were about ready
to fire, when, by General Brinton's or Mathew's orders, I drew some men
up inside of the windows, and we opened fire on them. They immediately
dispersed, a number being killed and wounded. After an interval they
came up again, and we let them come up; but as soon as they came up to
the piece, and attempted to fire, we ordered them back, and when they
didn't go back, we opened fire. After that time notice was always
given. I suggested the propriety of going out for the piece and
bringing it in, and volunteered to go with my men and bring it in and
spike it; but our commanders thought it was not worth while, as we had
it covered. After the crowd had withdrawn from the piece, they got back
of board-piles and small houses, and kept firing at us all night. One
man fired an explosive bullet. Every now and then it would come in over
the heads of the men and strike something large--such as the stack of a
locomotive--and immediately explode. A number of them had muskets and
rifles. In the meantime some cars out on the right of us had been
fired, and a number of these burning cars were sent down towards the
buildings where we were, and lodged against some building not filled
with troops, and in a little while the flames rushed through the window
of the first floor and struck the ceiling of the second floor, and in
the course of half an hour or so everything was on fire, and about six
o'clock everything was on fire all around us, and cinders were falling
as long as my hand--large cinders from this building--and the roof of
this outside building was entirely on fire, and it had communicated to
the roof of the round-house, so that we were enveloped with a great
deal of smoke, and in danger of being enveloped entirely in flames.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How far was this cannon stationed from the position you held?
A. About as far as from here across the street--about eighty feet.
Q. In what direction?
A. It was facing about the direction of the grain elevator--in that
direction.
Q. Down the track?
A. Not exactly, but sort of angularly, so as to strike the machine
shops. It was on Liberty street.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Below you then?
A. Yes; but right opposite to us. After we were almost smothered in
smoke, and these heavy cinders were falling, we fell in for the purpose
of marching out--where, of course, I had no means of knowing--it was
not proper for me to inquire. In the meantime we took the ammunition
out of two or three guns there and dampened them with water so that it
could not be used against us. We turned out the first street and went
towards the Allegheny river and then we struck for Penn street, I
think, and as soon as we struck that street and got opposite those men,
who were firing all night, they turned about face and fired into our
flanks. The firing began as soon as we got on Penn street, and they
kept firing into our flanks all the time until we got to the arsenal.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where did the firing come from?
A. From door-ways, and alley-ways, and second story windows, and doors
of houses, and telegraph poles, and from every place where a man could
get behind--where he could fire without being in any danger. I saw men
standing along the side-walks with large navy revolvers in their coat
tails waiting for us to get past a sufficient distance to fire into us.
Q. For what distance was the firing kept up?
A. I can only give an estimate. I should say a mile.
Q. Firing out of houses--was there much of that?
A. A great deal of that? I saw repeated cases where a man's arm would
be out of a window firing at us; and generally when we would pass a
corner there would be a crowd there apparently peaceable, but when we
got past they would immediately fire into us.
Q. How many men were wounded in going out?
A. I don't know. I do not remember the number of men wounded.
Q. Was there any jeering of citizens from the houses as you passed
along?
A. A great deal.
Q. And participated in by women?
A. I think I heard several women abusing us and a number of men
stating, that we had killed their brothers and sons and so on, and that
they would kill us.
Q. When you arrived at the arsenal, did you go into the grounds?
A. No.
Q. You do not know what took place?
A. Not of my own knowledge.
Q. What was the conduct of the troops there under General Brinton,
taking them all, during Saturday in the round-house?
A. In my judgment, it was excellent, and, as we marched out of the
round-house in the morning, I think the men all kept perfect order. The
men were dressed in regular files, and no officer, that I saw, was not
in his proper place. There was no confusion among the troops until as
we got near the arsenal, when there was a movement made, coming from
the right, to close up on a double quick, and that brought the Second
brigade in the rear up on us, and that sort of huddled up the First
brigade, and made some confusion there.
Q. Where was that?
A. Somewhere in the neighborhood of the arsenal--probably two squares
from the arsenal. That confusion lasted two or three minutes, probably,
and the Second brigade was just put on the right, and order was
immediately restored. At one time there was a little difficulty about
drawing the Gatling guns, and I know I assisted myself in pulling a gun
some distance with my men.
Q. Was there any demoralization during the night in the round-house?
A. Not a particle--so far as I saw--not a particle.
Q. The discipline was good at the time you were in the round-house?
A. Yes; I had sentinels on front, and they observed their duty
perfectly, and my whole command was in excellent condition.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was there any disobedience of orders on the part of the officers or
men?
A. No; occasionally there would be a man that didn't have any
experience in the field, as there will always be men who will shirk
their duty. Once in a while there would be a man indifferent to his
duty, but that was simply in isolated cases just as you would see in
the army. I saw it in the army of the Potomac. As a whole the
discipline of the troops in the round-house was excellent.
Q. You state you thought there was some musket firing or rifle firing
from the mob at Twenty-eighth street.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see any musket firing?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see any muskets or rifles in the hands of the mob?
A. I cannot say that I saw--yes I did. I saw it on Saturday morning
after leaving the round-house, as we were going up the street. I saw
these men firing into us all night. I saw them have muskets. On
Saturday afternoon I saw firing that must have come from muskets. I
know the difference, and I judged from the sound and the smoke. The
firing couldn't have been done with pistols.
Q. Were any of the military struck by pistol or rifle shots before they
commenced firing on the mob?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear any command given to fire?
A. On Saturday afternoon?
Q. After this firing from the mob--following the stones thrown at the
military.
A. No; I cannot say that I did. I am positive I did not; therefore I
didn't fire nor order my men to fire.
Q. Did you hear a command from any officer to cease firing?
A. I do not remember any command to cease firing.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did you see General Pearson at that time?
A. I saw him once that afternoon. That is the time we were going up
from the Union depot to the Twenty-eighth street crossing; at least I
saw a major general I took to be General Pearson.
Q. Did you hear any general give a command in this way: "Order your men
to fire?"
A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. How was General Pearson dressed?
A. If this was General Pearson, he had a military coat on with shoulder
straps, and no sword.
Q. A cap?
A. I think he had a cap on.
Q. You saw no belt?
A. I think he had no sword nor belt.
Q. After you left the round-house and were marching along Penn avenue,
did you see any police officers fire at you?
A. No; I didn't see any firing. I saw them in front of a
police-station, and I saw them with pistols; but I know a man that did
see them fire.
Q. Did they make any hostile demonstration?
A. Yes--no; I cannot say that I saw any hostile demonstrations, except
in their manner. They looked at us with a forbidding sort of manner.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did they have pistols in their hands?
A. Yes.
* * * * *
E. Wallace Mathews, _sworn_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. In Philadelphia--No. 4105 Walnut street.
Q. What is your connection with the National Guard--what is your rank?
A. At present I am not in the National Guard. During the July riots I
occupied the position of brigadier general, and was in command of the
First brigade, First division.
Q. State whether you were at Twenty-eighth street on Saturday, the
21st, when the collision occurred between the troops and the mob?
A. I was in the neighborhood of Twenty-eighth street, near the railway
crossing, in command of my brigade.
Q. State what occurred prior to the firing?
A. The troops had been marching in column of fours, preceded by a
gentleman in citizen's dress, who was pointed out to me as the sheriff
of the county, and directly in advance of us was General Brinton and an
officer dressed in fatigue uniform--a major general--who was pointed
out to me as General Pearson. We marched toward Twenty-eighth street,
in which was a dense crowd. The crowd was pressing upon both flanks,
and was very dense in front, on Twenty-eighth street, at the crossing.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You marched with the right in front?
A. Yes. The order of the troops was as follows: The First regiment,
under command of Colonel Benson; next the Third regiment, commanded by
Colonel Snowden; third an independent company, the Weccacoe Legion; then
followed the Gatling guns, with a detachment from some of the different
commands to haul them, including one of my independent companies, the
Washington Grays. We marched in this order, and we marched into the
crowd until we couldn't march any further on account of the pressure
ahead of us. Then, by direction or command of General Brinton, when the
crowd in the neighborhood of Twenty-eighth street became so dense that
we could not penetrate it, the fours were wheeled into line, facing our
left flank, that is, facing the Allegheny river. Then, by order of
General Brinton, the brigade was marched directly to the front, and
across the tracks slowly, the men with their pieces at a carry, thus
backing the crowd off from the tracks, the purpose being, as I was
informed, to clear the tracks. The crowd was pushed gently back, until
they were pushed entirely off the tracks that were free from cars; but
there were several open cars in the vicinity, and we saw that in
attempting to clear the tracks we had already cleared, perhaps, four
tracks. Then, by direction of General Brinton, the front rank was left
in this place, and the rear rank was brought to about face, and marched
to the rear, thus clearing the few men gathered in the rear.
Q. How far did you march to the rear?
A. About twenty feet.
Q. Across the tracks?
A. Yes--twenty or thirty feet--facing the hill so that the front two
ranks were facing outward, opposite each other. Their backs were
towards the center. The crowd on our right, that is on Twenty-eighth
street, were very demonstrative and noisy, and began to press in
between the open ranks. By General Brinton's orders, the Washington
Grays were brought forward to drive out the crowd between the two
ranks. They proved to be insufficient. They were only nine men beside
the officer, and the Weccacoe Legion was brought forward to assist them,
and General Brinton actively superintended the effort to drive the
crowd out. That is where the first mélée occurred in driving out the
men who had intruded between the two ranks. As the general took direct
command, I didn't interfere. During that trouble some of the crowd, I
believe, were hurt by bayonet thrusts, and then commenced pistol
firing, and then almost simultaneously from every direction came pieces
of coal and stones and all sorts of missiles, in a great measure from
the hill and also from the cars--I think some were loaded with
coal--and from Twenty-eighth street, mingled with pistol shots and
shouting, so that it was a scene of confusion I never saw equaled. We
were without orders, and I saw nothing of General Pearson there at that
time. General Brinton I saw occasionally moving about in different
places. I watched the crowd, because I saw they were very much
incensed, fearing for my men. I saw them in several instances seize the
muskets of the men, and I knew that many of them were young men, and I
feared if such a movement as that became general, they would disarm my
men. Consequently, I watched very closely the temper of the crowd,
until I became convinced we couldn't temporize any longer, and I gave
the command to load.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. How long before the firing did you give the command to load?
A. Not more than one minute, I should judge; and there had been pistol
firing.
Q. From the mob?
A. Yes.
Q. Before you ordered your men to load?
A. Yes. Then, before I could take decided action in the matter, the
firing commenced somewhere on the right, as near as I could judge, in
the ranks of the Weccacoe Legion, or the artillery corps, Washington
Grays. I heard no order to fire, and I gave no order to fire. The
firing commenced first, a single piece, and then one or two near
together, and then it became general on the right of the First
regiment, and ran down as far as the center of the regiment, and as far
as the close. Immediately all the officers, from all I saw--I remember
Colonel Benson and his lieutenant--Colonel Clark--together with the
staff officers and myself, attempted to stop the firing. We rushed
among the troops in order not only to make ourselves seen, but felt and
heard, and gave orders to cease firing. The crowd scattered entirely as
soon as the firing commenced. We then moved immediately to the right,
covering Twenty-eighth street, and took possession of that, in other
words, brought up the Gatling guns, by order of General Brinton, and
placed them on the street. One to command twenty-eighth street, and the
other to command the tracks eastward. Then a company of the First
regiment were brought--as the crowd attempted to cross on to
Twenty-eighth street--were brought entirely across that street in the
rear, and stretched across the street, in that direction, to keep the
people back. Gradually the crowd began to get together in knots, and
assemble in our front, and some of the more violent among them, who
seemed to be under the influence of liquor or partially
intoxicated--some of them came up to within three or four feet, and
shook their fists in our faces, and called us vile epithets, in order
to break our lines. I saw no disposition on the part of the troops, not
even the privates, to hurt anybody, except in self defense. In some
cases they allowed the rioters to push through their lines, and get
inside. In this way the crowd gathered in little knots, and came
nearer, and got more and more bold, until I gave directions for one or
two companies commanding Twenty-eighth street to bring their pieces to
a ready, when the crowd immediately dispersed, showing that they still
feared any application of lead. We then held this position until about
dusk, when, by direction of General Brinton, I brought the brigade,
marching left in front, into the round-house. There was no explanation
given me at the time, so far as I remember, why we were taken into the
round-house; but it being night, I presumed we were to be quartered
there.
Q. By whose command?
A. I received my commands from General Brinton. We marched into the
round-house, and around the circle, nearly covering the entire circle,
the Third regiment, under Colonel Snowden, being stationed, as they had
followed in line, opposite the Liberty street windows of the
round-house. General Brinton and some of his staff and myself, with
some of my staff, then went around the building, looked at the windows,
and determined to put on a strong guard, and I gave the orders
accordingly. The detail was made, and the guard was stationed at those
windows, and I then attempted to get a little rest, but, after a few
hours, about ten o'clock, some firing commenced, and, after the firing
once commenced, there was no such thing as rest. I spent almost the
whole night in the round-house proper. Where I attempted to rest was in
the building that had been occupied as the telegraph office at the
outer depot.
Q. In the round-house?
A. Immediately adjoining--three or four feet from the round-house. We
had to increase the guard after the firing commenced. Had to put men at
each window on the Liberty street side, and on the side of the yard on
that side of the building towards Twenty-eighth street. I think we
increased the guard, perhaps, twice during the night. At one time
during the night, about one o'clock, I received information that a
piece of artillery was in Liberty street, and I immediately hastened to
the window, and saw a brass piece, which I judged to be a Napoleon gun.
Q. What time was that?
A. About one o'clock on Sunday morning. Several men were standing about
it, and General Brinton was there, and Colonel Snowden. I asked if I
should send out a detachment to capture the gun, and bring it in, but
he didn't give me direct permission, but gave me some encouragement,
and I went immediately to Colonel Benson to consult him about it, and
asked for a detail----
Q. Who was Colonel Benson?
A. The commander of the First regiment. While consulting him about this
matter, the Third regiment opened fire, as I understood, by direction
of General Brinton, on the crowd surrounding the piece, and from that
time on there was more or less firing. As the mob would come forward
and make a demonstration as if they were going to fire the piece, the
men at the windows would fire on them, but, after a time, they
restrained firing, and ordered them to go back; and that became a
by-word through the division, "Go back, go back, one, two, three," and
then discharge.
Q. Was there any firing at that time from the mob outside on the
troops?
A. Yes; pistol firing and gun firing--from some sort of guns. From that
time until morning there was a good deal of firing. There was one party
that was firing an explosive bullet, which would come through the
windows and strike and explode.
Q. Explode after they came into the round-house?
A. Yes.
Q. You mean explosive shells, fired from a rifle?
A. Yes; small things. One struck on a column not more than four feet
from where I was. I happened to be looking in that direction, and I saw
it. First there was a sharp crack, and then I saw the smoke and some
white ashes drop down from that spot. From that I knew very well that
it was an explosive bullet. Further on towards morning, some burning
cars were run in between our troops and the cannon, and from that time
on we had very little firing there. Then some cars were stopped on the
next building from the round-house, towards Twenty-eighth street, and
that building took fire. General Brinton had organized a fire brigade,
and had the fires put out. I didn't witness it myself, but understood
it. He had put out those burning cars, so the round-house was not set
on fire by the burning cars; but the machine-shop next took fire, and
we could not find any means to put that out. The burning of that
decided our case, for the round-house was connected with that by
buildings filled with light kindling wood used by locomotives for
firing up, and the burning of that building also sent columns of smoke
down into our open round-house and cinders, and after a time the
building itself took fire. I was then called after day light into a
council, by General Brinton, who stated that he had received orders
from General Latta, in case of moving out to go out eastward to Penn
avenue--I understood it. There was a young man there from the Jefferson
Cavalry, and he told where Penn avenue was--and for that matter, I knew
myself--and when it was decided, the general gave me orders to take my
brigade out first. I formed with Colonel Benson, of the First regiment,
and Colonel Snowden, of the Third, and the Weccacoe Legion, and the
Washington Grays, with the Gatling guns, and we issued out upon Liberty
street.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. The round-house was on fire?
A. I think the building itself was on fire. At any rate it was only a
question of a few minutes. After those other buildings were fired it
could not have been saved.
Q. Would it have been possible for your troops to have remained there?
A. It would not have been possible--not many minutes more.
Q. Was the round-house filled with smoke?
A. The whole building was so filled with smoke--the smoke was so dense
that it was difficult to see.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Before you left?
A. Yes.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. After coming out and manoeuvering in the street, your troops were
steady and kept in good order?
A. I was at the head of the line, where I thought my services were most
required--at the very head of the line, in advance of the First
regiment, nothing being ahead of me, excepting a small skirmish line of
a dozen men stretched across to clear the street, and on looking back I
never saw a regiment march in better condition, even in the streets of
Philadelphia, or march in parade in better order. They had their arms
at right shoulder, and were in perfect order. After we had been
besieged there and harassed all night, it nerved me, when I looked back
at that sight, when I saw those men come out in such gallant style,
after being harassed all night, and unaccustomed as they were to
fighting. We went down Twenty-fifth street to Penn avenue, and out Penn
avenue to the arsenal. From my position at the head of the line, I
didn't see any firing in the street. As we went along, people on either
side were looking at us, and I was quite anxious about this little
skirmish line, and was keeping my eye on them to see that they didn't
get nervous, and on that account may not have seen as much as the
others. I didn't see any firing from our flanks or in any direction,
until we arrived at the arsenal. We halted there, and I saw the guard
let General Brinton in, and I think one or two pressed in with them;
but after a time they came back again. During that time there was some
firing in the rear. We heard them hallooing there, and I distinctly
heard firing in the rear, which increased, and then I noticed that the
troops in our rear had become somewhat confused, and did not keep their
alignment, and some of them came up into my brigade. My brigade then
took the left, and Colonel Benson put his regiment in the rear, putting
his command on the two sides of the street, so that they could command
the windows. Those on the right side of the street commanding the
windows opposite, and _vice versa_.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you march in that form?
A. Yes; and after that we were not disturbed. We marched to the
Sharpsburg bridge, and crossed it, and in Sharpsburg we received a few
pieces of bread, and passed on over the hill.
Q. From whom?
A. From citizens, I think.
Q. Of Sharpsburg?
A. I think so.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Were your troops exhausted by want of food?
A. Very much. I didn't get even a piece of bread, but I saw some that
had that. I received nothing personally until we passed a mile and a
half, perhaps, beyond Sharpsburg, and there I obtained a little
buttermilk.
Q. Just state in this connection what rations the troops had received
from the time they left Philadelphia to the time that you reached
Sharpsburg?
A. After leaving Philadelphia, received nothing until we got to
Altoona. There the men were served with sandwiches and coffee--one or
two sandwiches and a cup of coffee to each man. These provisions were
handed in to the men. Then on arriving at Pittsburgh they were served
with similar things--sandwiches and coffee.
Q. During the night of Saturday you had nothing?
A. We had nothing after marching to Twenty-eighth street.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. At what time did you get the last rations?
A. About three o'clock on Saturday afternoon.
Q. And you did not get anything after that until you reached
Sharpsburg?
A. Nothing at all--excepting once in a while a soldier had put into his
haversack an extra piece of bread.
Q. And this was three o'clock on Saturday afternoon, until that time on
Sunday?
A. Nine o'clock, Sunday morning; and there was no serving of rations in
Sharpsburg.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. It was every fellow for himself?
A. Yes: each one foraging for himself. Rations were not served until
that night. So far as I saw, everything was paid for that was received.
I know that I paid for the buttermilk I received.
Q. Did you know or hear of any order being given to General Brinton by
Colonel Norris to move to Torrens station?
A. I heard of no such order.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Or from any one else?
A. No; I asked General Brinton frequently what his orders were, and so
far as I know, he told me the orders he had. I heard of no such orders.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. If these orders had been given, do you think that General Brinton
would have obeyed them and communicated the fact to you? You consulted
together?
A. We did. I think he would have told me certainly if he had such
orders. There was hardly any occasion to consult after we left the
city.
Q. But during Saturday night?
A. I frequently saw him, and had he received such orders I would have
heard of them.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you consult with him during the march from the round-house to
Sharpsburg?
A. During the march, until my brigade was put on the left, I frequently
saw General Brinton.
Q. Did you see Colonel Norris?
A. I didn't see him--to know him.
Q. Do you know him?
A. No; I saw a barouche later in the day in the vicinity of the
arsenal, and I heard it stated that Colonel Norris was in the barouche.
Q. You stated that some cars were run between you and this gun?
A. Yes.
Q. What became of the gun after that?
A. I saw it from the windows--from the higher windows--I went up once
for that purpose to look after that gun--and I found that provision had
been made by General Brinton in regard to it. I think he had stationed
some men of the Second brigade in the upper windows of the office of
the building near the round-house, and towards which that gun was
pointed.
Q. To pick off the gunners?
A. I understood that.
Q. Did you see any one with a lanyard in his hand fire that gun at any
time?
A. I didn't. It would have been too dark up to daylight to see a
lanyard.
Q. Did you see a light with the gun?
A. I didn't. I was with Colonel Benson consulting, at that time.
Q. Do you know it was a Napoleon?
A. No; I judged it was. I could see the gun distinctly, yet Colonel
Benson could not see it at all. I would like to corroborate the
testimony of Colonel Snowden in regard to the discipline of our troops
in the round-house--of both brigades, so far as I saw them.
Q. In short, was the conduct of your troops commendable?
A. Perfectly so.
Q. Of officers and men?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you had experience in the army?
A. Yes. I entered the army early in 1861, in the infantry--the three
months' service--and at the end of that time I raised a battery, and
served as captain of that battery for a year and a half. I was then on
detached duty for awhile, and then, in the spring of 1863, I rejoined
the army of the Potomac as major of the First artillery--the same
regiment my battery was connected with--and served on General
Doubleday's staff, and was in active command of three batteries in the
field, and was with my command in the beginning of Chancellorsville,
and later on in the battle I served as chief of corps, and after that
battle had command of eight batteries in the artillery reserve of the
army of the Potomac.
Q. With the rank of major?
A. Yes.
Q. Of artillery?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know of any communications sent by General Brinton to General
Latta while in the round-house?
A. I heard him say repeatedly that he had sent messages and received
messages from General Latta.
Q. Did you see the communications from either one?
A. I saw one, but didn't read it.
Q. Do you know the nature of those communications?
A. Nothing except as I have stated that in case of leaving--this was
near morning, I think--in case of leaving, to march out Penn
avenue--whether it stated march east, or go by way of Penn avenue, it
was something about Penn avenue. I knew where that was.
Q. From your experience as a military man, do you consider that it was
a prudent move to go into the round-house with the troops at that time?
A. It is very easy to see mistakes after they are made. I can say,
however, on general principles, it seemed to me at the time, as it has
seemed since, that the first thing to be done was to disperse the mob.
Until that was done, there was no safety in going into the round-house.
That the troops needed rest, there can be no question. Standing in the
sun, many of them had fallen from sheer exhaustion and the heat of the
sun. Several of the men were lying about there, and they were applying
water to them, if they could get it. There was complaint from all
quarters that the men were exhausted, and some seemed to be sunstruck.
In that condition, they needed rest, and their commanding officers
wanted to give them rest, but it was evident that the mob must be
dispersed before there could be much rest for them.
Q. Was not the mob already dispersed?
A. It was on the crossing, but they were continually gathering.
Q. They were re-assembling?
A. Yes; and some were very demonstrative and very violent.
Q. Did you see General Pearson in the round-house, after you retired
there?
A. Yes; he was in the telegraph office, which was immediately adjoining
the round-house. A building some four or five feet from the
round-house. I think they called it the dispatcher's office. It was the
office where the wires centered. It was a square building, directly
opposite Twenty-sixth street. I saw General Pearson sitting at a desk
writing, when I entered.
Q. In this telegraph office, adjoining the round-house?
A. Yes.
Q. How was he dressed?
A. There was not much light and I could not tell, except that he was
dressed in the fatigue uniform of a major general. He had straps on his
shoulders, with two stars.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did he have a blouse on?
A. I cannot say.
Q. Did he have a cap on?
A. I don't know. He may not have had any anything on his head in the
house. When I saw the officer pointed out as General Pearson, on the
tracks, I cannot tell whether he had a cap on or not, but it was
something not unmilitary.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. But do not remember whether it was a hat or cap?
A. No. But if he had a silk hat on, with a soldier uniform, I should
have noticed it.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Do you know of any telegrams passing between General Brinton and
Colonel Scott in regard to General Brinton clearing those tracks?
A. I do not know of any communications whatever, between them; but I am
very confident, I am positive, I heard General Brinton say--we said to
each other during the afternoon, we have possession of those tracks,
and why don't they send out their trains.
Q. Then, in your opinion, they could have sent out trains, so far as
you had possession of the tracks?
A. So far as the tracks were cleared up to the point where we were. But
we understood the reason to be that the men would not serve.
Q. That they refused to run?
A. That was the excuse we heard; but there was no time during the
afternoon, after the first firing, when the crowd were cleared from our
immediate neighborhood, and no time, only during the night, that I did
not feel as a military officer, that we had command of the position,
and were competent to deal with the crowd. The only thing was, that we
were lacking rest, and were greatly reduced in strength from hunger.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did you hear General Pearson give such an order as follows, to the
officers: "Order your men to fire," before the firing took place?
A. I did not--nothing of the kind. I heard nothing in relation to
firing, except the first fire.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You suppose that the troops fired in self-defense?
A. I supposed at that time, and I don't know that I have any reason to
change my impression, that it was an actual shot--the first shot--and
there was so much confusion at the time that it would have been very
natural for others to suppose the order was given.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You stated that you saw pistol shots fired from the crowd?
A. It would be more correct to say that I heard them.
Q. Did you see stones and missiles thrown?
A. I did.
Q. Did you consider that an assault on your troops?
A. I did.
Q. Did you not then consider the order to fire justifiable?
A. I did.
* * * * *
Robert A. Ammon re-called:
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What day and what time of the day was it you got word that the
Governor was coming to Pittsburgh?
A. I think it was on the 24th. I think it was early in the morning, but
won't be positive about that. That is my recollection.
Q. Where did you learn he was at the time?
A. He had left Chicago.
Q. What time did you expect him?
A. I cannot state, as the rioters at that point were not aware when he
had left Chicago. I telegraphed along to the different trains, and
found he was coming on No. 4.
Q. Did you have any communication with him?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do when you learned he had come in?
A. I knew some men were lying along on the road, and more especially in
Ohio, and I had heard the talk indulged in by the men. Some were in
favor of stopping the train, and putting the Governor off. So I
telegraphed to the men not to do anything to get the Governor down on
us. I asked them to do that to please me, and they telegraphed back
that they would.
Q. Did you telegraph them to more than one point?
A. No.
Q. To what point?
A. Latonia, Ohio. I then telegraphed to the Governor, extending a
welcome back to the State, and guaranteeing him a safe passage. I won't
be positive whether he got my message at Latonia or Salem.
Q. Did the Governor communicate with you?