Q. Did you communicate that very freely to your acquaintances here?
A. With my more intimate business acquaintances the matter was talked
over pretty freely.
Q. Did you have any communication with the railroad officials in regard
to it?
A. No; I supposed them capable of taking care of their own business. I
fortified myself in regard to the strike. I have occasion to have a
great deal of freight moved, and I put myself in a condition against
any strike.
Q. In what way?
A. In getting in a good supply. If the strike had continued a month it
would not have hurt me, anything more than I could not have shipped
anything away. I had plenty of raw material on hand--it answered a very
good purpose, too.
Q. Did you communicate these facts and your apprehensions to the city
officials, any of them, of Pittsburgh?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or the county officials?
A. No, sir; I only talked with parties who were interested in the same
manner that I am myself and others, perhaps, I am well acquainted with,
in the same line of business, by fortifying in the way of getting in
plenty of raw material. I was so certain it would come to pass, that I
advised it all the time.
Q. Did you gather facts enough to enable you to determine when this
strike would probably take place?
A. Yes; I had a very good idea when it would come. I do not know that I
could see that my idea was so clear upon that, that I could fix the
hour or perhaps the day, but I think I could have named a time of ten
days that it would have occurred within that time. I could have done
that, perhaps, twenty days before the strike occurred.
Q. Did you, in any conversation with these railroad men, have any talk
with them about the wages they were receiving, and whether it was
adequate for their support?
A. Yes; that was talked about considerably.
Q. In the business that you are engaged in you employed a large number
of laborers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How did their wages compare with the wages of your men?
A. If they had steady employment--if they had been employed each and
every day--the wages they had would have been sufficient, and would
have compared very favorably with the employment in other lines of
business--in other departments. As I looked upon it, the prime cause of
the trouble was that there were more men than there was work for, and
they undertook to make a little work divide around amongst a great many
men, and that, of course, made a small amount of pay for each one. In
many other businesses, an employer so situated would have--I know I
should have discharged my men down until I had full employment for
those that were retained.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. From that I would infer that it was not the pay, but it was the time
they were making?
A. They did not make enough time.
Q. Had they made full time they would have made ample pay?
A. Perhaps satisfactory.
By Mr. Englebert:
Q. Has not that been the case in all business for the last year?
A. I think that some employers have made the same mistake as the
railroad men. It was out of the goodness of their hearts that they kept
men about that they had not employment for. I would either give them
work or not give them work.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. In your opinion, it is bad policy to keep men working on half time?
A. It is very bad policy.
Q. That was the policy adopted by the railroad company?
A. It seems to have been.
By Mr. Means:
Q. I simply want to know this: Did the railroad officials believe that
half a loaf was better than no bread?
A. I have heard them talk that way. I think the railroad officials took
that view.
Q. That half a loaf was better than no bread?
A. Yes, sir; but as opinions are going, I would say, a man had better
go and try to make a whole loaf somewhere else, than hang around and
make a half loaf.
Q. Suppose he could not get the work?
A. There is a way where there is a will. I never kept a man half
employed.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you visit the scene of the riot at any time during its progress?
A. Yes, sir; Sunday I was up in that part of the city. I did not go up
to where it was said to be the worst, but far enough to see all that I
cared about seeing.
Q. What class of men were engaged in the actual burning and pillage so
far as----
A. So far as I observed, and judging by appearance, it was about the
class of men you see going backwards and forwards on the railroads and
thoroughfares, known as tramps.
Q. Did you see any of the railroad employés with whom you had
conversations before and were acquainted?
A. I saw some there; yes, sir. They appeared to be lookers-on only.
Q. Not engaged in the actual arson and riot?
A. No, sir; I did not see one of them that had anything except what
appeared to belong to him.
Q. Were any engaged in burning and setting afire?
A. Not that I saw--none that I had any acquaintance with.
Q. Did you meet any of them to have conversation with them on that day?
A. Yes; Sunday I saw a great many of them.
Q. How did they talk then?
A. They appeared to regret very much that there was any destruction of
property.
Q. Have you talked with them since any?
A. Yes: I talked--I believe three days out of six I am more or less on
the railroads, and acquainted with a great many railroad men. It has
pretty much ceased to be the subject of conversation now, but for a
time afterwards it was the principal topic.
Q. Did you ascertain from them, or from any reliable source, whether
they had anything to do with the attack that was made on the
Philadelphia troops at Twenty-eighth street on Sunday, when the firing
took place?
A. I have never seen any of them that acknowledged having anything to
do with making that attack on the troops. They spoke of it as the
attack having been made by--well, tramps and roughs they called them.
There was a pretty strong organization among the men on the north side
of the river to prevent any force coming over to shoot the Pennsylvania
boys, or, as they termed them, P.R.R. boys. That is the way they talked
about it. They did not propose to have anybody coming in there to shoot
them down. That was a pretty thoroughly organized force.
Q. That is, to stop the trains having troops in?
A. Yes; and they were expected in with troops. That occurred in the
immediate neighborhood where I live. The whole region was patrolled.
Q. Patrolled by the railroad men?
A. By the railroad men; yes, sir.
Q. Did you learn from these men where the first strike was to be made?
A. No. They talked of it as though it would be a general uprising
throughout the whole country. They did not designate any particular
place.
Q. You did not get the particulars?
A. I never heard the particular place designated as to how it would
start, but simply it would be a strike; that they would all quit work;
not work themselves nor allow others to work, and block travel and
traffic in that way, expecting as the result it would bring the
managers of railroads to their terms.
Q. You travel on the roads a great deal you say, and have a great deal
of shipping?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. From your knowledge was there a less amount of work to be done on
the railroads by the men than there had been formerly?
A. There appeared to be a very decided falling off in through traffic;
the local traffic is holding its own, perhaps; furnace work and mineral
traffic appeared to be about the same as it had been.
Q. It was in the through traffic that there was a falling off?
A. Principally in the through traffic.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Who was in command of this armed force you speak of that was on the
other side of the river?
A. I never heard the commander's name mentioned. Those men whom I met
in the street in my neighborhood said that their commander says so and
so, and requested citizens to keep away--that the trains were about
due--that the commander says so and so. I do not know who the commander
was.
Q. They had apparently an organization?
A. They had apparently an organization, and obeyed instructions,
perhaps, as well as the soldiers on this side.
Q. What train had that reference to?
A. The Erie train.
Q. With troops?
A. The train that was expected to arrive with troops.
Q. What steps did this armed force take to prevent trains from coming
from Erie to assist the military?
A. The plan that they had proposed was to give the signal to that train
and stop it.
Q. But if that was not heeded?
A. They had a rifle pit shortly above there, and if the train had not
heeded the signals they would have undoubtedly fired into it.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was the man who was called Boss Ammon--was he in command of that
force?
A. I did not hear Ammon's name mentioned in connection with the matter
to any extent until the day following. I know that Ammon was not
installed in the dispatcher's office on that side until the Sunday.
This attempt to stop the Erie train was on Saturday night, and Sunday
afternoon Ammon was installed as head man in the dispatcher's office. I
did not hear that name. I have no recollection of hearing his name
mentioned in connection with the matter at all, until some time during
the forenoon of Sunday. I had heard of a man of that name; but did not
know he was in this part of the country at all. I did not know who
their commander was Saturday night. The name was not mentioned, except
as I spoke of, as our commander says so and so, and requested people to
keep out of the way in a certain locality in the immediate vicinity of
the station.
Q. What time did that organization first show itself in Allegheny to
stop trains with troops?
A. That was on Saturday night.
Q. When was the first freight train stopped?
A. Friday; I think it was Friday morning.
By Mr. Dewees:
Q. Did you see any trenches dug along the road?
A. Strawberry lane; yes, sir.
Q. What was the object of that?
A. To intercept the Erie train in the event of their disobeying the
signal.
Q. Were they along the road, or across the road?
A. Parallel with the road.
Q. Where is Strawberry lane?
A. It is in the Ninth ward of Allegheny City--one of the lower wards.
Q. Who put in the rifle pits?
A. The railroaders--strikers.
Q. This mob?
A. It did not partake of the nature of a mob over there. It was a very
thoroughly organized force--armed and equipped.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How many railroad men did you converse with, do you think, that led
you to form your conclusions?
A. On the different roads, perhaps fifty men.
Q. What class of men principally?
A. They were conductors and engineers, chiefly, I talked with.
Q. Any brakemen?
A. With many brakemen.
Q. Fifty men on the different roads that you have mentioned before--you
mentioned the roads?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When did that restlessness begin to show itself among the men?
A. Began to manifest itself in the latter part of May.
By Mr. Dewees:
Q. The persons that dug that trench, were they Allegheny railroad men
or were they tramps? What do you suppose they were?
A. Most of them were railroad men. There did not seem to be many tramps
connected with those men over there. These men were acting on their own
account, and did not ask anybody to help them. They said they were
working for the right, and appeared to be very earnest. They were very
orderly.
Q. Things were done systematically?
A. Things were done very systematically.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. Were these men in the employ of the railroad company or were they
discharged men?
A. There were a few discharged men. Of course I do not know how many of
them were discharged, but from their talk I got the impression that
there were some six or eight that had been discharged.
Q. That was a part of the grievances?
A. Yes; that was the object--to have them re-instated. They made that
one of the conditions--of those men going to work again. I was amongst
these men a great deal during the time that they were discharging them
and reducing the work. I was very desirous that they should go to work,
for as long as they were not at work it brought a class of people in
our part of the city that I did not want to have around there. I knew
if they went to work, and the trains were moved--I talked with them
whenever I could--they would all gather about me.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. You say you thought you could have named within ten days of when the
strike would take place. Did you hear anything about the proposed
strike of the 27th of June that was talked about by the Trainmen's
Union?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You heard them talk about that?
A. I heard them talk about that.
Q. Did you hear the railroad men fix that time or talk about that time
as there would likely be a strike?
A. There seemed to be a difference of opinion in their views as to that
being the right time. They would talk of it in that way--some thought
it would be a good time, and others did not.
Q. Did you ever hear them name any special day, or any particular time
when there would likely be a strike, or when there would probably be a
strike?
A. After the 27th of June they felt pretty certain that it would be
sometime not far from the middle of July. They talked like this. They
wanted the money for the work that had been done during the month of
June before they struck. If they had their money in their pocket it
would be fortifying themselves.
Q. What time was the pay day of the railroad company?
A. I believe the usual pay day--of course it varies along the line of
the road--I think on most of the roads they commence paying sometime
from the seventh to the tenth, and go along various places until they
get paid.
Q. You supposed from that that probably if the strike occurred it would
probably occur pretty soon after they got their pay?
A. As soon as the men along the line of the road had been paid off.
Q. Was there anything done by the railroad men on your side of the
river that you know of towards organizing for the strike, or committing
any overt act until after the strike occurred here?
A. I think the trains had been moving regularly up to that time.
Q. It did not really break out there--no overt act was done nor any
trains prevented from going out until the Saturday after the Thursday
it broke out on this side?
A. It broke out here on Thursday, and I think the first there was
Friday morning.
Q. Were you talking or did you talk on this Thursday or Friday with
those classes of railroad men you had previously had conversation with,
in regard to what was going on?
A. On Friday I had some talk. I went out on a train that leaves here at
nine o'clock in the morning, on the Fort Wayne road, and had
considerable talk with some of the freight train conductors.
Q. What did they say about the difficulties that had occurred here?
A. There is a schedule of quite a number of freights following
immediately after that passenger train, and of course they talked about
the strike being in fact over here, and talked with some of the men at
the station before the train left there. I was on the lookout to see
whether the trains were moving out, and the trains appeared to be ready
to go out. When I got some thirty-five or forty miles up the road, the
conductor on the train I was on told me that the freights that would
follow immediately after the nine o'clock train, had been intercepted,
and that the strike had organized.
Q. As this strike finally did take place, there was no general
understanding on all the roads that it should take place on each
railroad on a certain day, that you found out. It did not actually take
place on the different roads on the same day?
A. No; I do not think the strike became general throughout the country
until, perhaps, three--it may have been four--days after its first
commencement. The first general demonstration was on the Baltimore and
Ohio road.
Q. You heard nothing in any of these conversations of any fixed day
after the 27th of June--any date named?
A. As I said early in my testimony here, I do not know that I could fix
the hour or the day, but I think I could have named the time within ten
days, from the information I had in talking with the various employés,
and that was, to wait until the payments had been pretty generally made
on all the roads throughout the country--that seemed to be the time.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did the railroad strikers in Allegheny City, on the Fort Wayne and
Chicago railroad, show any disposition to destroy property or commit
any violence or illegal acts except stopping the trains?
A. No, sir; there was a great effort made upon their part to preserve
all property--railroad property and private property.
Q. They made efforts to prevent the destruction of property?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Private property and railroad property?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what way or what efforts did they make?
A. On Sunday afternoon the report became current over there that these
destructionists--I do not know what else to call them--were coming to
Allegheny, and the railroad men talked amongst themselves like this:
That this is the employment we are living on, and it shall not be
destroyed; we will take care of it. The trade of the road is such there
that from the upper end, or what is known as the outer depot, cars and
locomotives and everything--I suppose they run twenty miles up--laying
on the tracks, and within a very brief space of time there was some
fourteen or fifteen miles of locomotives taken entirely out.
Q. By the strikers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. To protect them?
A. Yes; and they did protect them most effectually. Many of those cars
were loaded with very valuable merchandise, and there was an armed
force of these strikers who protected these cars--regularly stood guard
over them--fourteen or fifteen miles of cars--every day and every
night, relieved regularly.
Q. Did you see them or any of them commit any illegal acts--railroad
men?
A. I suppose that would have been an illegal--would have been
considered an illegal act to stop that train.
Q. Didn't they stop other trains--freight trains?
A. The regular trains were stopped.
Q. Forcibly?
A. Not forcibly. They seemed to be stopped at the dispatcher's office.
If they got a permit they would allow them to pass. If a train went out
with a permit they would not trouble it.
Q. Did they take forcible possession of the dispatcher's office?
A. I do not know whether it was forcible or not, they seemed to have
possession of it.
Q. Did they use any violence towards men that were willing to run
trains?
A. I did not hear of an instance of intimidation.
Q. Do you know of any effort being made to have trainmen take out
trains?
A. I do not think there was any effort made. They appeared to be all of
one mind about that.
Q. Did the strikers say they would prevent them from going out by
violence?
A. I think I heard some talk that would amount to about that. Passenger
trains were allowed to come and go as they had done before. A good many
of the passenger trains stopped at the dispatcher's office to get a
permit that would enable them to pass other localities where the
strikers were congregated.
Q. That would be called, in railroad parlance, orders?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was the dispatcher during the riots there?
A. Ammon was known as dispatcher.
Q. He took possession of the dispatcher's office?
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was he the man that issued these orders?
A. I think the orders were signed with his name. I never saw any of the
orders. I heard the passenger train conductor speaking of them.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. He was general superintendent and dispatcher both?
A. Yes; he seemed to be the principal man on that side. I have thought
of that matter frequently since then, and it appeared to me that it was
a fortunate circumstance that these men were willing to recognize some
man as a head, if they had not done that matters would have been worse
than they were.
By Mr. Dewees:
Q. Did the mayor of Allegheny City send a relief guard?
A. I heard that he did. I do not know that I ever saw it.
Q. You do not know that as a fact?
A. No, sir.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was not the force that he organized in other parts of Allegheny City
at the bridges?
A. I suppose that is where his force was employed chiefly.
Q. Was there a general disposition manifested on the part of the
citizens to quiet the troubles?
A. Yes; all the talk was with a view to get to work again.
Q. I am speaking of the citizens?
A. All the citizens desired to have these men go to work, so far as I
talked with any of them.
* * * * *
Colonel P. N. Guthrie, being duly _sworn_, testified as follows:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. I reside at East Liberty, Pittsburgh.
Q. What is your business at the present time?
A. I am a book-keeper in the Exchange National Bank.
Q. How long have you held that position?
A. About twelve years.
Q. Are you a member of the National Guard?
A. I am Colonel of the Eighteenth regiment.
Q. How long have you held that position?
A. Since 1874. I think my commission dates 1874.
Q. Just state to us now what orders you received, and when you first
received them, and from whom, in relation to the riot last summer?
A. Well, on Friday morning, about half past four o'clock, I was
awakened by a knock, and received an order, a telegraphic order, from
General Pearson, informing me that by orders of the Governor, my
regiment was ordered out for service, and ordered me to report at seven
o'clock, at the Union Depot hotel. I have one company whose
head-quarters is at East Liberty, where I reside, some five miles out.
I notified them by hunting up the captain, and then came into town,
sent off, the best way I knew how, to get my officers together, and
notified them. They notified their subordinate officers, and assembled
the regiment. It was too late to get any orders in the newspapers, they
had all gone to press. It was too early to find messengers, and the
work had to be all done by carrying messages from man to man, by the
corporals and sergeants of companies. My command was ready at half past
eleven o'clock, and by a little after twelve I was at the Union Depot
hotel.
Q. With how many men?
A. I had then about two hundred and twenty-five men.
Q. How many men have you in all the regiment?
A. I have about three hundred and twenty-six uniformed men. Well, the
regiment was formed in my armory. There was present, Major General
Pearson, commanding the division, and the sheriff of the county. When I
deemed that I had sufficient men for service, I marched down to the
Union Depot hotel, accompanied by the sheriff. At that time I thought
that my regiment was the only regiment ordered into service, and had
the direction of military affairs, and so far as my regiment was
concerned was with me. I had my own ideas what should be done, but when
I got to the Union Depot hotel, Major General Pearson had ordered out
the division, which made me a subordinate officer. My regiment was then
ordered out to the stock-yards, five miles and a half from here, where
I remained until Sunday night on duty.
Q. What time did you arrive at the stock-yards?
A. Torrens station--that is the stock-yards. I arrived there about half
past one o'clock. We remained at the Union Depot hotel, waiting there
for a consultation between General Pearson, the railroad officials, and
myself, as to what was the best course to be pursued. My regiment was
finally ordered out to the stock-yards, with the understanding that the
Fourteenth and Nineteenth regiments would soon report, and they be sent
to Twenty-eighth street. Upon their arrival at Twenty-eighth street,
trains were immediately to be started. Sending me to the stock-yards
was to secure the passage of trains through and beyond the stock-yards.
Q. That was the result of your consultation there at the depot?
A. That was the result of the decision of Major General Pearson. My
opinion was that I should go to Twenty-eighth street, and the
Fourteenth and Nineteenth go to the stock-yards. I believe no
interference with the trains had been made at the stock-yards, and up
to that time. If there had been, I don't know it, and there certainly
had been interference at Twenty-eighth street.
Q. You desired to stop at Twenty-eighth street?
A. I desired to stop at Twenty-eighth street. I could have taken
possession there without any trouble, I think, at that time.
Q. In going out to Torrens, were you interfered with on the route?
A. Not at all. There were about two hundred or three hundred men at
Twenty-eighth street--I guess twelve hundred or thirteen hundred when I
got there.
Q. You went out on the train, did you?
A. Went out on the train.
Q. Did you have any trouble or meet with any resistance in disembarking
your command?
A. I had one company at East Liberty that I had ordered at once to
Torrens station, and they had taken possession of the platforms there,
and we disembarked from the cars without any trouble whatever, or any
demonstration of any kind--not even noise. Everything was quiet and
still.
At this point the committee adjourned until three o'clock, this
afternoon.