Q. That was the decision you came to?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. After a consultation with the mayor, was it?
A. I cannot recollect any direct consultation with the mayor.
By Mr. Reyburn:
Q. Was he there?
A. Yes, sir; but I am satisfied that he was of the same opinion.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did Officer McGovern report to the mayor during the afternoon?
A. I believe he came in before the rest came for supper, and reported
this disturbance--about a man being arrested for striking Mr. Watt, and
he then reported all quiet after that.
Q: Did he report to you by telegraph?
A. No; yes--I believe they did telegraph this arrest first from the
Twelfth ward station.
Q. You have arrangements at the station-house to receive reports from
all parts of the city, have you not?
A. From eight different parts of the city--yes, sir.
Q. From that portion of the city?
A. Yes, sir; there is a station-house within two blocks of
Twenty-eighth street.
Q. Did you receive any report from Officer McGovern during the
afternoon?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the nature of it?
A. That all was quiet--that this man had been arrested for striking Mr.
Watt.
Q. Was there a dispatch sent you, or communicated to you from Mr. Watt
during the afternoon, that he wanted fifty more men?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time was that?
A. I do not remember--perhaps an hour after the first squad of police
went out.
Q. What did you do?
A. I stated that before. I went out on the street, and saw some of the
discharged men.
Q. Did you raise the fifty men you wanted?
A. No, sir; I did not raise twenty men. I did not raise seven men, no
more than that.
Q. Could you not have got fifty men at that time?
A. No.
Q. Did you make any call on the night force?
A. No.
Q. Did you make any call for police--any demand for a posse of police?
A. Of the regular force?
Q. Or any force?
A. I simply went on the street, and around Fifth avenue and Smithfield
street, and asked these men if they would go.
Q. Did you have any conversation with the mayor?
A. I think the mayor handed me this dispatch.
Q. Did he make any call for a posse of police?
A. No; no more than telling me to do as I did--to see if I could get
the men.
Q. Did he tell you how the men were to be paid?
A. I do not know. That was one objection with these men. They wanted to
know about their pay, and whether it was going to be a regular thing. I
could not satisfy them about that, and they did not care much about
going.
Q. You just went around and hunted up the men that would go voluntarily
of their own accord?
A. Yes; after getting this report from the Twelfth ward station-house.
We thought that fifty men would hardly be necessary anyhow; but we
could not have raised them if we had wanted them.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Could you not have got them if you had commanded them?
A. We could not command them any more than I could command you.
Q. Could not the mayor have commanded them?
A. He had no right to command them.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. He did not tell you to command any men to serve.
A. No.
By Mr. Dewees:
Q. What was the reason you could not get these men to go out?
A. Well, we had a reduction of our force a short time before, and some
of these men thought that they were not treated right, and when I asked
them to go out, they wanted to know if they would be placed on the
force permanently. Of course I could not satisfy them, and they did not
want to go.
By Mr. Means:
Q. At any time you were there, did the firemen call on you to assist
them?
A. I saw the firemen only on Sunday, and it was understood then that
the mob would not allow them to put water on the property.
Q. Did they ask the police officers to help them?
A. I do not know that they did. I was out there with the mayor, and we
had too few men. The firemen would change their place time after time
as the fire came down. A man came and said that they wanted to throw
water on the fire, indicating a car burning, and the mayor said: "All
right, we will protect you." We immediately formed the men to protect
them, but afterwards they did not throw water on that fire at all.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where was the mayor during Thursday afternoon?
A. I saw him in the office, I think, once or twice.
Q. Where was he during Thursday night?
A. I think in the office.
Q. Did you receive any instructions from him during the night?
A. I went to him during Thursday night to place one of our lieutenants
in charge over the force at Twenty-eighth street--Lieutenant Coates. It
was his suggestion, I believe.
Q. At the mayor's suggestion?
A. Yes; or mine, and he agreed with it.
Q. What time was that?
A. About supper time.
Q. Where was he during the day Friday?
A. I remember seeing him in the office.
Q. Did you receive any instructions from him during the day in regard
to this disturbance at Twenty-eighth street?
A. No; there was no disturbance there during that day. There was a
crowd there, and the military were there.
Q. Where was the mayor during Friday night?
A. I cannot answer that.
Q. Where was he on Saturday?
A. On Saturday he was in the office. In and out as usual. At the time
we got the report of the firing he was in the office, I know, because
he sent for me and asked me to take a couple of men out Penn avenue,
and close all the saloons in the vicinity of this disturbance.
Q. What time was that?
A. I think along about four o'clock.
Q. Four o'clock on Saturday he asked you to take two men out and close
all the saloons in what district?
A. You mean what police district?
Q. Yes.
A. The third police district.
Q. Extending over how much space?
A. Over the city in the vicinity of Twenty-eighth street. We closed all
the saloons there from Thirtieth to Twenty-fourth street. We then came
in and sent another squad out to close the balance.
Q. How far?
A. Down to Eleventh street.
Q. Had you received any instructions from him during the day, (Saturday
before this,) in regard to the disturbance out there?
A. No.
Q. The saloons had been open out there until three or four o'clock on
Saturday?
A. Yes; they were open at the time we went there.
Q. What time did you arrive there?
A. I can't tell. It was immediately after hearing of the firing. We
walked up Liberty street as fast as we could.
Q. You went with the two men, and saw that your orders were executed?
A. We went in and asked these men, and told them it was the request of
the mayor to have them close their saloons.
Q. Did they comply?
A. Most generally.
Q. During the day, Sunday, did you receive any orders from the mayor?
A. No; except I was out with him at the scene of action in the
afternoon. The mayor was out there before daylight, and I was out there
myself. I came in about six or seven o'clock, and got my breakfast, and
went out at ten o'clock, and then I found the mayor there.
Q. Did you receive any orders during Sunday night from the mayor?
A. Nothing, except about handling the police, in trying to prevent the
mob getting into those stores.
Q. What did you do to prevent that?
A. They called some of the south side police over, and had them doing
duty around in places where they anticipated there might be a break
made, but there was considerable damage done before the police arrived.
Q. What damage was done before the police arrived?
A. A couple of stores were gutted, on Penn avenue and on Liberty
street.
Q. What kind of stores?
A. The one on Penn avenue was a pawnbroker's and the one on Liberty
street was a gun shop.
Q. Do you know who broke open the stores?
A. Since then I know of one party that was a leader in it. But I do not
know the others.
Q. Were any policemen in the vicinity at the time?
A. No; at that time there were no police on duty. They didn't go on
duty until eight o'clock.
Q. Were any policemen on duty throughout the city during the day,
Friday?
A. No.
Q. During the day, Saturday, throughout the city, I mean?
A. No.
Q. They were not on duty until eight o'clock, Saturday night?
A. No.
Q. Then these stores were broken open before eight o'clock?
A. Yes; that is, the first two.
Q. When there were no policemen on duty?
A. Yes.
Q. When did the mayor put on any day force, or was there any day force
on Sunday?
A. On Saturday night I put a notice, by the order of the mayor, into
two of the Sunday papers, to have all those ex-policemen report at
eleven o'clock on Sunday, but got very few reports.
Q. How many reports did you get?
A. I do not remember now--not probably over fifteen or twenty reported
in time.
Q. Were they placed on duty during Sunday?
A. Yes.
Q. Were there any policemen on duty throughout the city on Sunday?
A. Yes.
Q. How many?
A. Well, the third district had some of the south side police on duty
on Sunday night, in the vicinity of Twenty-eighth street, and the
police there I brought in on Sunday morning, and got their breakfasts,
and sent them out again. Some of them strayed off, of course.
Q. As chief of police, can you not give us the number of policemen on
duty during Sunday, in the whole city?
A. I do not think there were more than eighty. That is, we got more men
on as it grew later in the day.
Q. This notice you placed in the papers was merely a request for the
discharged police force to report at eleven o'clock?
A. Yes; I had the orders, and I think the mayor had consulted with the
committee of safety, or some one who assured him they would be
responsible for the pay of the police, and would see that the police
stayed on.
Q. What time did you get that notice into the papers?
A. It was given to the papers on Saturday night.
Q. Was it published in the evening editions?
A. It was published in the _Globe_ and _Leader_ of Sunday morning.
Q. By whom was the notice signed?
A. By myself.
Q. As chief of police?
A. Yes.
Q. You say you got very few reports?
A. Very few; that is, at eleven o'clock.
Q. During Sunday night how many police did you have on duty?
A. I had all the old force, and I expect, perhaps, about forty or fifty
of the discharged men.
Q. That would make about one hundred and forty or one hundred and fifty
men during Sunday night?
A. Yes.
Q. How many did you have on duty during the day--Monday?
A. Well, those policemen came reporting in one after another from
Sunday until Tuesday, and they never went off duty at anytime from
Sunday night, from the time they went on, until about Wednesday, I
guess.
Q. Where did the mayor spend the day--Sunday?
A. Along Liberty street, part of the day.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. About the scene of the riot?
A. Right there.
Q. What was he doing there?
A. All he could to prevent the depredations. He was with the police;
but we could not do anything. He went to Union depot and made a speech
to the mob; but that did not have any effect. They stoned him, and he
had to get out.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What time was that?
A. I do not have any distinct recollection of any time that day. It
was, perhaps, half an hour previous to the burning of Union depot.
Q. Was he out there on Sunday when the fire was going on?
A. Yes.
Q. The fire commenced out beyond Twenty-eighth street and worked down
this way?
A. Yes.
Q. How many men were engaged in burning cars, or in the actual
destruction of property there, during Sunday?
A. That is a hard matter for me to say. The track in some places--I
suppose there are three or four or five rows--and the freight cars were
packed in alongside of one another, and on the top of those cars and in
between them, there was a crowd of people all the time. Some of them
may not have had a hand in doing any damage, but I think that most
everybody that was on the track--of course there were some spectators
that didn't have any hand in it--but the majority of the people there
would break open a car or gut a car whenever they could. I could not
say how many, but a great many, three hundred or four hundred anyhow.
Q. Were those men armed? Had they weapons?
A. I didn't see any weapons except a few revolvers.
Q. As chief of police, I ask you if you do not think you could have
taken one hundred policemen, with their maces, or the weapons that they
usually carry, and have thrown them across the track there, and driven
back that crowd?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Because the crowd was on all sides, and I would not know how to form
the men to do that to have a solid line. The crowd was along the track
and in between the cars as much as five hundred or six hundred yards at
a time, and they would come rushing in and yelling every way, from
below and above.
Q. I ask you if, in your judgment, you do not think that you could have
taken one hundred policemen and stationed them across the track in
front of Union depot, from the hill down to the block of buildings, and
have driven back the crowd as they came up?
A. If I had had one hundred men there that might have been
accomplished. I did try it with what men I had.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. How many men did you have?
A. Not more than fifteen or sixteen together at one time. The
policemen, of course, got around among the people, or the mob, and we
could not find them.
Q. It was not possible to keep them together?
A. I could not keep them together. In order to get at the men, the
policemen would have to divide, and it was such a big mob, we could not
keep them together.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Could you not have formed at some cross street, say Fifteenth or
Sixteenth street, and then have resisted the crowd and kept them back?
A. On the street?
Q. Yes?
A. Well, the crowd on the street was not so unruly as those on the
railroad.
Q. But Sixteenth street runs up to the railroad. Now, could you not
have formed the men at Sixteenth street and thrown them across the
railroad, with one wing running out towards the hill, and then have
kept the crowd back?
A. No; because you could not have got the mob together at any one
point--because the mob most all the time extended five hundred or six
hundred yards.
Q. To what point did the mob extend, coming towards the city?
A. Nearly into Union depot.
Q. Then could you not have formed at Union depot and kept them back?
A. It would have taken a great many more men than that.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was any effort made at all to get control of this crowd at any time
during the disturbance?
A. Yes.
Q. With your fifteen or sixteen men, you mean?
A. Sometimes we had twenty--all the men we had, or that could be got
together--perhaps, sometimes, twenty-five or thirty men. They would be
getting in among the mob and trying to drive them back.
Q. Had the police authorities no organization or no arrangement to keep
the crowd from coming, or did they allow people to come from all
directions when they knew a disturbance of this kind was going on--did
you have any organization at all?
A. Not a very good organization. The men went out there in the morning,
and they had been up all night, and they were tired, and it would have
been impossible to keep the crowd back. They flocked in from all parts
of the city, and from the country for miles around.
By Mr. Englebert:
Q. In other words, you really had not any organization of the police
force?
A. When I went up there, our men were scattered. I took them on the
railroad several times, but was unable to do any good. I took them on
the railroad in a body, but they could not be kept there any time
without being separated.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was any effort made to make any arrests, during this disturbance, of
parties engaged in the riot?
A. On Sunday morning, we arrested about one hundred and thirty--that
was the beginning of the fire--when they began to pillage the freight
cars.
Q. Did you arrest any of the parties that were pillaging?
A. We arrested them coming away with goods.
Q. What did you do with them?
A. We brought them down in the morning, in the "black maria," to the
Central station, but Deputy Mayor Butler, I believe, discharged most of
them, and fined some of them.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Do you know how many were fined?
A. I cannot tell. I did not stay to the hearing myself.
Q. What is Mr. Butler's first name?
A. Joseph.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Your people took these men up, going away with goods?
A. Yes. We put them in the Twelfth Ward station, and then put them in
the "black maria," and brought them to the Central station, and heard
them there. Mayor McCarthy was up all night, and he was tired, and he
deputized Deputy Mayor Butler to hear them.
Q. And he discharged them?
A. Yes; he discharged a good many of them.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. Do you know whether those people were citizens of Pittsburgh, or
people that had just run in?
A. Some were citizens of Pittsburgh and some were strangers.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did the mayor or anybody else say to you, at any time, that it was
necessary for the railroad officials to get out of town--that their
lives were in jeopardy.
A. I never heard any such expression coming from the mayor.
Q. That it was necessary for the railroad officials to get out of
town--that their lives were in jeopardy? Was that said to you by the
mayor or by anybody else?
A. I am satisfied that I didn't hear any expression like that coming
from the mayor, but I heard talk like that on the street.
Q. From whom?
A. Most any of the crowd that would be congregated together would be
talking about this thing.
Q. Citizens of Pittsburgh?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you name any of them?
A. Not now. It was the general talk. General Pearson, I guess, was
named in such talk more often than the railroad officers.
Q. But you heard that talk about the railroad officials?
A. Yes; that it would not be safe for them to show up.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. One question about this plundering and thieving: Were those parties
discharged the same day that they were arrested--on Sunday?
A. The same day--Sunday.
Q. Then the arrests amounted virtually to nothing?
A. Yes; except in saving the property of the company, or whoever it
belonged to.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was the mayor present when you offered protection to the firemen, at
the fire engine, when they proposed to throw water on those burning
cars?
A. Yes; the mayor was present. One of the firemen asked him, if he
would protect them, and he said yes, and the fireman said, that is what
we want. Then they made the attachment, but did not throw any water
afterward on the fire.
Q. Did they make any proposal to the mayor, to take an active part
himself--to hold the nozzle?
A. No; I do not think they did.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Why did they not throw the water?
A. Because, I suppose, they were intimidated.
Q. But when you gave them the protection they asked, did they not make
an effort to throw the water?
A. No.
Q. Did the mob make a rush?
A. No; no more than following the engine.
Q. What reason did they give for not throwing the water?
A. I do not know.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Who had charge of the engine at that point?
A. I do not know; I do not know what engine it was.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. Did the firemen throw water on private property when it was burning?
A. All the time.
Q. But not on the railroad property?
A. No.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Do you know who the man was who asked protection from the mayor?
A. I do not know.
Q. Did the mob interfere with private property at any time?
A. Not during that day. They did attempt to during that night and also
during Sunday night.
Q. What attempts were made on Sunday night?
A. The American house, I think, or some place near it, was gutted, but
by that time we had a pretty good force, and we went there and drove
them away and arrested some of them.
Q. Who had command there?
A. Lieutenant Coates.
Q. He had no trouble in beating the crowd away?
A. He had some trouble, but he did it.
Q. How many men had he?
A. I went there afterwards, and we had, I suppose, some forty men
there.
Q. After the railroad property was destroyed--by that time you had a
pretty good police force?
A. Yes; the men were reporting during the day.
By Mr. Dewees:
Q. You stated you had sixteen policemen at Union depot?
A. I stated I had sixteen in line.
Q. Where were the balance of your police at that time?
A. They were scattered among the mob.
Q. The whole police of the city were there?
A. No, sir; all I could gather up at that time were there.
Q. Are you still the chief of police?
A. No, sir; there is another administration.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Have you a police commission or police committee, that have any
special duty in taking charge of the police or in regulating the
police?
A. No, sir; it is the mayor that has that power here.
Adjourned to meet at three o'clock, P.M.