* * * * *
William Ryan, _sworn with uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. In the Fifteenth ward of the city of Pittsburgh.
Q. Are you in the employ of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been in their employ, and in what capacity?
A. I cannot state the precise date when I entered the service of the
company; but I judge it is between eight and ten years.
Q. In what capacity were you employed in July last?
A. As freight conductor.
Q. Between what points?
A. Pittsburgh and Derry, or between Pittsburgh and Conemaugh.
Q. You were a conductor on trains that ran double-headers?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been running on trains that run in that way?
A. I cannot tell the length of time precisely, but I was running them
from the time they started--that is, from the time they started to run
through freight as double.
Q. About how long?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. Two or three years?
A. I hardly fancy it could be that long. I should say a year.
Q. Were you at the depot or about the depot on the morning of the
19th--Thursday morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that your morning for going out as conductor of the train?
A. It was my train that should have started out. It was my morning.
Q. What was your time for going out?
A. If I recollect right, it was eight-forty.
Q. Did you start that morning or make any attempt to start?
A. We made every preparation to start, with the exception of coupling
up the train. I examined the train as I was going into the yard. I
thought the men were rather long in getting the engine out. I started
up, and on going to the train men's room met two of my brakemen, and
asked the cause of the delay. They told me they didn't intend to go
out. I asked the reason. They said they had either quit or struck--I
don't recollect. I asked what their object was in striking. They said
they didn't intend to run on double-headers--that they were not making
any more than a living at that time, and that by running
double-headers, it would cause some of them to be dismissed or
suspended. That they didn't know who it would be, and as they had the
advantage at that time, they would make the best use of it they could.
Q. Those were your brakemen?
A. Yes.
Q. What were their names?
A. One was named John Vensel and the other I cannot give his first
name. In giving in his time, I always gave it as M. Martin.
Q. What time had you this conversation with them?
A. I judge about nine o'clock.
Q. They said that some of them would be dismissed?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any further conversation with them?
A. I did.
Q. What about?
A. I tried to advise them not to strike, and showed them the folly of
it. I told them that the times were hard at present and that freight
was very slack, and that the company was trying to economize and that
their chances were just as good as mine. I advised them to stay. They
claimed "no," that they had determined to quit, and were going to do it
or had done it. I notified the dispatcher then that the men had quit,
and asked what I was to do. He told me to remain, and that he would
provide men for me. He went around and made an effort to get men but
could not get them. I then asked permission to go to dinner, and I
went, and came back about twelve or one. There was no change in the
affair at all, everything remained just as it had been.
Q. Where did these men go when they refused to go out on the train?
A. In the yard.
Q. They did not go home?
A. No; they remained in the yard up to the time I left, and I saw them
there in the afternoon.
Q. Were there any other men about at that time?
A. Yes; men were continually coming in off the road.
Q. How many men were there when you left to go to dinner?
A. I should judge about eighteen or twenty men at that time.
Q. Did you have any conversation with any other men?
A. With my flagman.
Q. What did he say?
A. He thought as the rest did, that now was the time to strike or quit,
and that they all had concluded to do it, and that all my conversation
with him would not change his ideas a particle.
Q. What men were coming in?
A. The men off the regular freight trains kept coming in there during
the day.
Q. They joined the other men?
A. Yes; and swelled the crowd.
Q. Did you talk with those men to find out whether they had arranged
for this strike previously?
A. I did not. I blamed them for it, but they denied it. Whether they
had made an arrangement or not for that day, I don't know.
Q. They denied an arrangement?
A. Yes.
Q. How many of them denied it?
A. Two or three of them I think denied it. They had made an arrangement
previous to this to strike, but from some cause or other it was not
carried into effect, and my being a non-union man, I concluded that
they had arranged it in such a way that the responsibility would fall
on me, and in case it would be a failure I would be the man discharged,
and that the union men would not suffer. That was the opinion I formed
that morning.
Q. How long previous had they made this arrangement?
A. A month or two months before.
Q. What prevented the carrying of the arrangement into effect?
A. I do not know. When a railroad man came to me, and requested me to
join them, I told them I could not do it; that my opinion was different
from theirs with reference to strikes; that I did not feel justified in
doing it. He asked me if I had any injury. I told him I could not say.
He said: "I am going to strike to-morrow." I went as far as Derry, and
laid over two or three hours. The only person there I saw by himself
was the dispatcher. I went to him and told him in confidence that these
men were going to strike.
Q. When was that?
A. It was previous to this affair of the men going out--a month or two
months.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. After the reduction of ten per cent.?
A. Yes. I told the dispatcher that these men had come to the conclusion
to strike, and told him I wanted to let it be known--that two thirds of
them were not friends of mine, and it would only cause me trouble by
their going out, and I would notify the proper officers in time to give
them a chance to prevent in case it should occur. I returned to the
city that morning with the train. Coming in, I wondered how to get at
the superintendent's office without being seen. I did not care about
being known, and after putting the train away, I concluded I would go
out on the accommodation, but I met one of my men, and I got into
conversation with him, and I asked him if he knew anything about it. He
said he did, and he said it had fallen through. I asked him if he was
positive of it, he said he was--that he knew it had. I told him I was
very glad to hear it. Says he, I am not. I concluded then not to go
out. I made inquiries among other men, and found it to be the fact,
that they had concluded not to strike at the time appointed.
Q. Did this man give you any reasons?
A. He did not.
Q. Who was he?
A. His name was Sloan.
Q. Did you hear any other conversation or learn anything of any other
union or organization to strike from that morning until the 19th?
A. No.
Q. Had you any knowledge that your men would not go out until you met
them--those two men?
A. None whatever.
Q. How long before that morning was it known to the men that the order
had been issued to run double-headers?
A. It was known in six hours, I should judge, to all the men on the
line after the order was posted on the bulletin boards.
Q. When was it posted?
A. I cannot give the date, but fancy it was posted twenty-four hours
before the order should have gone into effect.
Q. Did you discover that it produced any commotion among the men?
A. Not more so than at other times. There was general dissatisfaction
among the men on account of the double trains. Of course it increased
it somewhat. There were several trains running before this order was
issued, but when this order would go into effect it would make all
trains double, and this would cause them to feel more dissatisfied.
Q. After you returned from your dinner on Friday, how large a crowd did
you find in the yard?
A. I judge about twenty men--twenty-five--probably more.
Q. All railroad employés?
A. I cannot say that, but the greater portion of them at that time were
railroad employés. The crowd gradually increased until evening.
Q. Did you have any conversation with the men after you returned from
your dinner?
A. With some of them.
Q. About going out?
A. I spoke to them, and asked them who had organized it, and what they
were going to do about it. They said they did not know, that they had
quit because the rest had, and intended to see it through.
Q. Was there any effort made that afternoon to start the trains?
A. I believe not that afternoon to my knowledge.
Q. When was the first effort made to start the trains, to your
knowledge?
A. Thursday morning.
Q. Was there none made on Friday morning, to your knowledge?
A. I think not.
Q. Or during the day Friday?
A. An effort was made, I think, in the afternoon of Friday.
Q. Were you present when that effort was made?
A. I was.
Q. How large was the crowd at that time?
A. I cannot tell the number, but it was a very large crowd.
Q. Composed of employés of your railroad, and of the different roads?
A. Almost all classes of men were there.
Q. Who seemed to be the leaders, at that time, of the crowd?
A. It would be a very difficult matter for me to say. In fact they all
seemed to lead--where one would go, the rest would follow.
Q. Do you mean helter-skelter?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did there seem to be any leader who was taking charge of the riot?
A. In the beginning there was one man that seemed to take the lead--on
the morning of Thursday, but after that I lost all trace of him.
Q. Who was he?
A. His name was Hice. I was in the telegraph office on Thursday
morning, after the strike occurred, talking to the train runner. He
came up, after the conversation with me, and I saw him in the act of
trying to couple an engine on to some caboose cars. They failed to do
so on account of the throwing of stones and other missiles.
Q. What time was that?
A. I judge about ten o'clock--along there somewhere.
Q. Thursday?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that the first violence that was used?
A. The first I saw.
Q. Who were those persons who were throwing the stones?
A. I cannot say who they were.
Q. How many composed the crowd at that time?
A. I fancy some fifteen or eighteen men that I saw there, but might
have been more.
Q. Were they all railroad employés?
A. I cannot say that.
Q. Were those brakemen who had refused to go out with you among them?
A. That I cannot say. I was not close enough to see whether my men were
among them or not.
Q. On Friday afternoon, when the attempt was made to start the train,
will you tell us what occurred then?
A. As near as I can recollect, the train was made up, and it was pulled
up out of the freight yard. I don't know whether the caboose car was
coupled or not. I cannot recollect, but I saw the train start as though
it was going to go out. I saw men run in front of the engines to stop
them, and I saw the parties get off of them, and the train then was
backed into the yard after that.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was that on Friday?
A. I cannot say whether it was Thursday afternoon or Friday, but it was
one of those two days. It seems to me it was Thursday afternoon--the
same day.
Q. When the resistance was made there, was it a combined resistance of
all the men, or did only two or three seem to be leading the others?
A. It was a general rush, a swinging of hands, and a yelling and
hooting.
Q. Were any missiles thrown of any kind?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Was any violence used towards those who were trying to take the
train out?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Were any threats made to the loyal men who were willing to work?
A. I was not close enough to hear the conversation.
Q. Were you threatened at any time if you did not leave the yard?
A. Not directly. Two or three men came to me, and asked me if I was
going out. I told them yes, if I could get a crew, and one of them
intimated to me that I had better not go, or words to that effect--that
they did not want to hurt me, or something like that. That was about
all.
Q. Whom did you report to when your men refused to go out?
A. The dispatcher.
Q. What is his name?
A. William Hunter.
Q. How many trains were to go out at that hour--eight-forty?
A. I think mine was the only one at that time, with the exception of
the single train going on the branch.
Q. When were the next trains to start?
A. The next, I believe, would have been eleven o'clock--no; the next
would have been nine-forty.
Q. Do you know whether the conductors of those trains were all prepared
to start them or not?
A. I believe one of them was there.
Q. Did you have any talk with him?
A. I did.
Q. Was he willing to go?
A. No; he was not.
Q. He was among the strikers?
A. Yes.
Q. Were the engineers willing to go?
A. That I do not know. One of them came to me and ask if I was going
out, and I told him yes, if I could get a crew. He turned around and
walked away, and did not say anything more to me about it.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What was this conductor's name?
A. Meredith.
Q. You said that two or three men came and asked you if you were going
out, and you said yes, if you could get a crew, and that then they
intimated it would be well for you if you did not. Who were these men?
A. One was D. W. Davis. The other name I do not recollect.
Q. What was his position at that time?
A. A brakeman, I believe.
Q. Had he been discharged or was he still in the employ of the company?
A. He was in the employ of the company up to that morning, so far as I
know.
Q. Do you know where he is now?
A. No.
Q. Has he been in the employ of the company since?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. The other's name you do not remember?
A. I don't remember at all.
Q. Where is this Conductor Meredith?
A. I think he is in some part of Kentucky.
Q. How many men did you have as trainmen for one train?
A. Three.
Q. Besides yourself, and aside from the engineer and fireman?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did you have any fear of violence from the employés of the road if
you started out?
A. Well, I had a fear, but no serious fear. I did not think that they
would kill me.
Q. You did not believe on the morning of the riot that they would do
so?
A. No; besides I was determined to protect myself in the best way I
could.
* * * * *
John Plender, _sworn with uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. I am living at Walls station.
Q. Are you in the employ of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?
A. Yes, sir; I am running a passenger engine--the "accommodation"--as
engineer.
Q. Were you in July last?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Between what points?
A. Between Walls and Pittsburgh.
Q. What is the distance of Walls from Pittsburgh?
A. Sixteen miles.
Q. How often do you make your trips?
A. I make three round trips a day.
Q. Were you at the Union depot on Thursday morning, the 19th?
A. I came in that morning from Walls, at eight-fifteen.
Q. What time did you go out?
A. At twelve-five.
Q. Where were you between eight-fifteen and twelve-five?
A. In the round-house, at work on my engine.
Q. When did you first learn that any men had refused to go out on their
trains?
A. I suppose it was half-past nine when one of the men told me. It was
an engineer that told me.
Q. Was he one that had refused to go out?
A. No; he had just come in.
Q. Did you learn anything more about it between that time and twelve
o'clock?
A. No. The "Yioughiougheny" came in, and he told me that there was a
strike.
Q. What then took place?
A. That was all that took place between him and me.
Q. Did you remain in the round-house?
A. I remained in there until eleven o'clock, when I backed out, and
came down and took out the train.
Q. Were you interfered with in any way?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any conversation with the strikers that day?
A. Not until evening.
Q. Whom did you see in the evening?
A. I had no conversation, no more than a man stopped me at
Twenty-eighth street, and asked me what I was hauling.
Q. Were you coming in or going out?
A. I was going out on the last trip, at eleven-forty. I told him I was
hauling an accommodation train. He told me I could go on, and he got
down off the engine.
Q. Did they stop you?
A. No; they were all standing there, and when I came up--we all have to
stop there--he got on the engine.
Q. At what point?
A. At Twenty-eighth street.
Q. How many were standing there then?
A. Quite a number--I suppose about thirty-five or forty of them.
Q. Did you know any of them?
A. I knew him. It was dark, and I couldn't see who the rest were.
Q. What was the name of that man?
A. D. W. Davis, I think.
Q. Did he say anything more to you?
A. No; nothing more. He said it was all right, that I could go on,
after I told him what I was hauling.
Q. What was the manner of the crowd at that time as to their being
boisterous or demonstrative?
A. Indeed, I could not tell you. We just stop for a couple of minutes,
and sometimes not that long.
Q. You had no conversation with any other excepting the one who got on
your engine?
A. That is all. He was discharged off this road a couple of times, and
off the Pan-Handle, I believe.
Q. Why was he discharged?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. Where did he live?
A. Somewhere about Twenty-eighth street.
Q. Did you learn that day, or any time after that, when these parties
resolved to strike?
A. No.
Q. Did you know of any preconceived plan of striking?
A. No; I did not.
Q. Do you know whether they have a secret organization or not?
A. All I heard of was the Train Men's Union--that is all I know of.
Q. What is the object of that?
A. That I cannot tell you. I never was in any of their meetings, and
know nothing about it.
Q. Do you know whether there was any other organization?
A. The Engineers' Brotherhood.
Q. What is the object of that?
A. That I cannot tell you. It is something I never belonged to.
Q. Did you come in on your regular trip in the morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you molested in any way?
A. No.
Q. Did you go out on time and come in on time all day Friday?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Without being molested?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you run on Saturday?
A. Until eight-fifteen, Saturday night.
Q. What stopped you then?
A. I did not go out at eleven-forty, because I could not get out at
eleven-forty.
Q. Why?
A. The fire was too hot.
Q. I suppose you didn't go out for a week or so then?
A. I went to work on Tuesday.
Q. At what time?
A. I think I went out at six-five on Tuesday night.
Q. Was there still a crowd about then?
A. Yes.
Q. How large about?
A. I cannot tell how large the crowd was.
Q. Had the work commenced then, by the company, in clearing off the
tracks--the _debris_?
A. Indeed, I cannot tell you whether it had or not.
Q. Were you interfered with in any way on Tuesday night when you went
out?
A. Not on Tuesday night.
Q. What was the mob doing at that time on Tuesday night?
A. The mob was cleared away then, on Tuesday, partly.
Q. Partly, you say?
A. From Thirty-third street. It was as far as we could get. I went to
work on Tuesday after the Sunday of the fire.
Q. You run your trains regularly up to Saturday night?
A. Yes; we came in at eight-fifteen.
Q. Were you there when any of the demonstrations were made by the crowd
in firing or throwing stones?
A. No.
Q. You were not about Twenty-eighth street then?
A. No.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you see any interference?
A. I saw the interfering on Thursday with the Union Line that they were
trying to take out.
Q. Stopping of the train?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any violence or assaulting of the engineer, or any train
men of that train?
A. No; the crowd just got in front of the engines, and sprung on them.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Who were those men?
A. They were other men than railroad men.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you know any of those men who got on your train?
A. No.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Couldn't you guess from their appearance what their trades or
occupations were?
A. No.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did they get on and off the engine as if they were men used to being
around the cars?
A. No; some of them would get off and fall, and some of them would get
off pretty good.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Were they sober or not?
A. I could not tell that.
* * * * *
W. A. Kirk, _sworn with uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. At Wilkensburg.
Q. What is your connection with the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?
A. I am a conductor on the Wilkensburg accommodation.
Q. Were you a conductor in July last?
A. Yes.
Q. How far is Wilkensburg from Pittsburgh?
A. Seven miles.
Q. How many trips do you make between these points a day?
A. Five round trips.
Q. What is your time for leaving?
A. The first trip in the morning we leave Wilkensburg at
six-fifty-four, and get there at night at ten-fifteen.
Q. What time do you get to Pittsburgh?
A. Seven-thirty first, and leave at nine-forty, going out on the last
trip.
Q. On the morning of July 19th, were you disturbed in coming in or
going out?
A. No.
Q. When did you first learn of any difficulty or any strike?
A. When I came as far as Twenty-eighth street with the twelve-five
train--coming in on that trip--with the train due at the depot at that
time. I then heard of it. I had heard remarks of a strike, but heard
nothing definite until I came in on that trip.
Q. What occurred on Friday?
A. I saw men standing around there on Friday, I did not see anything at
all, except seeing men standing around.
Q. Were you molested in any way?
A. Not on Friday. I did not see anything unusual on Friday. No; I was
not molested on Thursday in any shape, but on Friday they were around
by hundreds. Parties that I did not know where they came from, and we
could not do anything with them. They would get on the trains, and we
could not do anything with them. They did pretty much as they pleased,
and I saw that we had better keep quiet. They were riding between
Twenty-eighth street and Lawrenceville and Torren's station, during
Friday. They were just riding when it suited them.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What did they seem to be?
A. They seemed to be mill men, as much as any thing else, from their
appearance. They seemed to work somewhere where the sun did not strike
them.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. They refused to pay fare?
A. Yes; they paid nothing. On Saturday morning, coming in on the first
trip, I did not see any of them. I had the usual run of passengers in
that morning. Going out at nine-forty, I got a crowd on that covered
the engine, and tank, and train, and every place. After I left
Twenty-eighth street, I made up my mind between there and Lawrenceville
that I would not go any further until I had got those parties off. I
got to Lawrenceville, and went to the engine, and got a big coal pick,
and then went to them, and said the first man that refuses to get off
here, I am going to stick the coal pick in him. I found that they all
got off, and seeing that I had it my own way with those on the engine,
I thought I would try it with the others on the train. I did try it on
them, and so pulled on to Millvale, when I did not have anybody on that
did not pay any fare, and I kept that up all day Saturday, except one
trip. On the half-past three trip, they were a little too thick. I
threw them off, and knocked them off the train, and drove them off the
engine with the pick. At Liberty, coming in on the twelve o'clock trip
that day, I was about five minutes putting them off there. A crowd of
them got on at Torrens. I got them all off, that did not pay any fare.
My crew stood by me very well. During the whole trouble, if I had had a
few more men on the train--I only had two of a crew--I could have
cleaned them out all the time. I was not molested or troubled at all by
the railroad men--that is on the train, in that way. I was told at
Liberty, on Saturday night, that I could not run the train out the city
there by one railroad man and one other.
Q. Who was the railroad man?
A. His name was Hice, and the name of the other was Smith.
Q. Smith was not a railroad man?
A. No.
Q. Do you know what his occupation is?
A. A one-horse stock dealer. He went around the country buying up
calves. I do not know what he is doing now. He is under indictment at
present.
Q. Was Hice in the employ of the company at that time?
A. He was when the riot commenced. He has not been since.
Q. You say you ran your train without carrying passengers that refused
to pay fare except once. What day was that?
A. It was Friday that I could not do anything with them.
Q. Did you attempt on that day to eject those men?
A. I did, but I concluded it was not going to be very healthy, and I
gave it up. They would not get off, and made all sorts of threats. I
did not know any of them that made the threats. They threatened that if
there was any putting off, they would be the parties to do it, and I
would be the one to go off.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Can you tell us any of the occurrences of the riot?
A. I cannot, for I was just simply running on the train. I did not
stop. The firing that took place at Twenty-eighth street occurred while
I was out on a trip. They held me at Lawrenceville until it was all
over and quiet, so that the track was clear when I came down. When I
came in, there were not many there, but there was a big crowd there
when I went out. I ran my train every trip except the last one,
Saturday night. I went for information to the telegraph office, but
could not get any, and I kept the train out there and did not make the
last trip.
Q. During all the excitement you were free to run in and out?
A. Except a little detention waiting for the crowds to open. They would
always get out of the road. Nothing was said to me by any person--by
any employé, except this man Hice. He asked me once if I did not think
I had better stop, and I told him I did not think I had, that I would
go on as long as there was a track to run on, and make the trips, if I
could.
Q. Did you have any conversation with any of these men except Hice, or
did you hear any of the strikers talking?
A. Two or three railroad men--I do not know their names--went out on my
train at three o'clock on Thursday afternoon; they were going out home.
I asked them what the trouble was, but I got but little satisfaction
out of them, no more than they were swearing at the double-headers;
that was all I could hear.
Q. They were not taking part in the riot?
A. No; they said they were not going out, but they had nothing to do
with the trouble. I think they went home, for I would see them still
out down there when I went out. They were not in the crowds at all.
* * * * *
Frederick Fleck, _sworn with uplifted hand_:
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. At Spring Hill, on the line of the Pennsylvania railroad.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. I am a locomotive engineer.
Q. Were you so engaged during the riots in July?
A. I was.
Q. Can you give the committee any information upon the occurrences that
came under your observation?
A. On the morning of Thursday, the 19th, I started out on my usual
time, at seven-twenty, with a coal train. I ran what is called the
Pittsburgh coal train--making two round trips from Pittsburgh to
Brinton's about eleven miles out. We left in the morning without any
indication or sign of trouble on the road. Everything appeared to be
going on as usual. There was no intimation of any trouble. Coming in on
the road, about East Liberty or Torrens, we usually met the trains
going out--the eight-forty's. We did not meet them. We should have
passed them between those points. We did not know what was the matter,
but thought there was some delay or no freight; but when we came to
Torrens, some of the men about the stock-yards, by signs in this
manner, [indicating,] showed there was a strike, as we understood; but
we knew nothing definite until we got to Lawrenceville, and there
ascertained there was a strike. We usually cut the engine loose on
running by the upper round-house. There was a conductor came on the
engine, and asked me if I was going out. I told him I certainly was,
that I had no reason why I should not go out. He said the boys were on
a strike, and they did not propose to let anybody go out.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Who was that conductor?
A. His name was Leech Reynolds.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was he an employé of the railroad company?
A. He was a conductor at that time.
Q. Do you know where he resides?
A. I think he then resided in the Twelfth ward. I did not pay any
attention to him, whatever, and the train was dropped past, and I
pushed on to the west end of the yard, as usual. I believe there were
no objections to putting trains away that came in.
Q. Is Reynolds living in Pittsburgh now?
A. I think he is, although he is not employed at present. I paid no
attention to the threats. I asked what would be the consequence if I
did go out, and he said that I would get my neck broke. I smiled. I told
him I did not know--that it was pretty hard to break, as it was short
and thick. I went on to Lawrenceville with the engine and crew. We
carry four men on that train. It is a train that does a great deal of
work, and we require two flagmen. There was a great deal of work to be
done on that train, as it is a double train, and we take local traffic.
At Lawrenceville I started to go down the track, when the conductor and
crew left the engine. I said, boys are you not going out? They
concluded not to go out, that they did not want to be black sheep. I
told them that I did not know that the double-header business
interfered with us, and it was only a question of double-headers, so
far as I knew. Nevertheless, they concluded not to go out. I then took
the engine down, and reported that there was no crew to go out. This
was about eleven o'clock on Thursday morning. In the meantime, there
was some scuffling about there. I saw men rush back and forward, and
there were some policemen there. I did not know what the trouble was,
and went down to make some inquiries from Mr. Fox. I asked what the
matter was, and was told that they were trying to arrest a man that had
struck Mr. Watt. They had got hold of him, but he was limber as an eel.
The engine was taken into the round-house. About two or three o'clock
that afternoon, an attempt was made to take the double train out--what
is called the Union Line. Conductor France was to take it out. He asked
me what to do about the matter. I said he ought to judge for
himself--you know your business--but, if I were you, I would attempt to
take the train out, and if they won't let you, then you have done your
duty. He is a rather bold, brave fellow, and sometimes would go further
than other men would. He said, I have got shooting-irons, and if they
stop me I may hurt somebody. They coupled up the train, but they were
stopped at the lower round-house. There were some parleying there, and
some difficulty. A crowd was there, of twenty or thirty or forty,
stretched along from Twenty-sixth to Twenty-eighth street.
Q. Who were this crowd?
A. They were railroad men--I can hardly tell who they were--principally
railroad men at that time. The order was given to start the train. I
think Mr. Watt was there, and the engineers made an effort to start,
but the crowd got in front and commenced swinging their hands, and I
saw one man flourishing a revolver. I think his name was Harris. They
stopped them, and the engineers got off, and the firemen, and the train
did not move. That was on Thursday, about three o'clock. On Thursday
evening the engineers called a meeting over Clark's hotel, and I went
to see what action would be taken in regard to the strike. Up to that
time I understood the engineers had not taken any part--that they were
a kind of silent party, looking on. They met and discussed the matter
_pro_ and _con_ for some time. The older men advised not to have
anything to do with the matter, that it was a conductors' and
brakemen's fight, and that they should be left to fight it out
themselves; but some time previous to this, there had been a reduction
of ten per cent., and the engineers had sent a committee to
Philadelphia to the general office, to see what could be done about it.
The committee returned, and they had accepted the reduction in good
faith. I told the meeting that the men had consented to take the
reduction, and that so far as the double-headers were concerned, they
had run them before, and that there was no objection--that it did not
require any less engineers or firemen to run the double-headers, and
that it did not effect us in that respect, but before the meeting broke
up some men came in under the influence of liquor, and got a little
noisy, and the thing dropped until Friday morning. On Friday morning
they had another meeting, and I also went to that. The older engineers
thought that we could keep the men out of it--the engineers and
firemen--but it appeared to be determined on the part of the majority
of the freight engineers and firemen to go into the matter, and the
meeting was postponed until three o'clock. They did not come to any
conclusion. The majority of the men there that morning were opposed to
the strike. They concluded to have another meeting in the afternoon;
and I saw, with a few others, that a resolution would be adopted that
they would go for the strike, so I did not go, and I advised some of
the younger men that I knew, not to go near the meeting. This was at
Engineers' hall. About one o'clock they had organized the meeting, but
I was not down there. They sent a sub-committee to come up and take me
down by force to the meeting. I refused to go. Then they organized and
concluded to go into the Trainmen's Union, and they went into it, and
went into the strike--that is the majority of our freight
men--engineers. Up to that time I did not know of any organized
committee or anything else waiting on the officers, and I told our men
in the morning you cannot consistently demand anything until you see
the officers and have a refusal. I told them you have not made any
request, and you are going into this thing without making any request,
and that you have violated the law at the start, and you cannot expect
to be successful; but they said that the iron was hot, and that they
were going to strike. So after that time until the trouble was over, I
had nothing to do with the men. I staid there until Saturday evening,
ready to go out. In fact on Saturday my engine was fired up and ready
to go out. I never refused to go out because I had never quit the
service of the company.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What kind of a meeting was this?
A. It was meeting of engineers and firemen.
Q. A secret organization?
A. No; it was an open meeting.
Q. Participated in by men belonging to this organization and others?
A. By the brakemen, conductors, engineers, and firemen, and all those
that wished to be there. On Saturday evening the troops came up, and I
was back and forward to the shops. I was up on Twenty-eighth street,
but I saw no violent demonstrations, although there was a big crowd
there. I suppose, though, if there had been any effort on Friday or
Saturday, to send trains out, there would have been violence. Plenty of
revolvers and fire-arms were displayed there, by plenty of men outside
of railroad men.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Was it railroad men who flourished and displayed the revolvers and
fire-arms?
A. I think the majority were outsiders.
Q. Were they citizens of the city of Pittsburgh, or strangers?
A. I don't know. I suppose they were citizens from the East End--from
the east of the city. There were thieves, and robbers, and rogues, and
tramps there from the whole country.
Q. Were they citizens of Pittsburgh, or were they strangers?
A. I think the majority of them were outside of the railroad employés.
Whether they were glass-blowers, or puddlers, or citizens of any other
occupation, I could not tell. The Pittsburgh troops were on good terms
with the mob. Some were giving them muskets, and marching up and down
with the mob, and eating hard-tack with them, and there was a good
feeling, generally, between them. The report came that the troops were
coming from Philadelphia, and that there would quite likely be trouble
with them, because they were strangers here, and would not know the
position of things here, but would obey orders. From that, I inferred
that the Pittsburgh soldiers had not exactly obeyed orders. I only
inferred that. This was the kind of tone or feeling around there. When
the Philadelphia troops came marching up through the yard, my engine
was out. I think that General Pearson was there at the same time that
the Philadelphia troops came up from Twenty-eighth street. I think that
General Pearson was, and I am positive about Mr. Cassatt. He said to
me: Fred., are you willing to go out? I said: Certainly. I have never
refused to go out. Certainly, on condition that the mob is dispersed. I
would not like to run through it. I don't want to hurt anybody. He
said: We don't want to send anybody out, until the mob is dispersed. I
thought that if there was any determination displayed on the part of
the troops, the mob would go away. Shortly after that, I was at the
upper end of the lower round-house, half way between Twenty-sixth and
Twenty-eighth streets. After the troops got up there, somebody made a
speech--some one of the officers, or somebody--made a little speech,
warning the people to go away, and disperse. I couldn't hear exactly
what was said. Then I saw some of the soldiers come down shortly after
that, and one of them, particularly, had the whole side of his face
knocked off by a brick. They were the Philadelphia troops. Some of the
others came down sick. I don't know whether they were sunstruck, or
what kind of struck, but they were weak about the knees, some of them.
Then, by and by, I heard a little bit of musketry rattling, and then
heard them shoot in every direction, and saw the crowd dispersing in
every direction--some running up the hill, and some up the railroad,
and some down Twenty-eighth street. In a short time, nobody was there.
The troops came down to the round-house, and were quartered there, with
the Gatling gun put in position, off Twenty-eighth street. I heard one
of the officers of the troops saying, that they could not stand it much
longer--that they were yelled at and struck--that they had not come to
Pittsburgh to hurt anybody, but that they couldn't stand it much
longer. But General Brinton told them, in my hearing, that they
shouldn't shoot at all. They had barricaded Twenty-eighth street. The
troops were barricaded there. Guards were posted properly, I suppose;
but they had no rations, and a good many of the men commenced to
complain about something to eat--that they had only had a small lunch
since they had left Altoona, or somewhere. Somebody remarked, that they
would open up the Gatling gun on the mob, if it didn't quit throwing
the stones and missiles at the men. This was about six o'clock. The
General came, and said, I don't want a man to shoot, without the
barricades are broken in. Stand back, and don't use any violence. I
won't allow any shooting to be done, without, it is in self-defense. I
remained there until half past eight or nine o'clock. The mob had
gathered so thick that it was almost impossible to get through. From
Penn up to Liberty, and from Twenty-sixth up to Twenty-eighth streets,
there was a solid mass of people. At that time, the old telegraph
office was shot into, and stones were thrown into it, and the only
thing that prevented them from shooting everybody there, was simply
because the street was so much lower, and they had to shoot up, and the
balls struck in the ceiling. One or two of the soldiers were struck in
the back by missiles, or with stones in the face. One of the officers
was struck, and it kind of riled him. By that time, an order came to
send to Union depot to take the fast line out. Nobody was about. They
had the engine, but no engineer. Mr. White asked me to go down. I said
I would, if I could. I tried to get out at the rear of the shops, but
the mob would not let me out. An officer was called up to pass me out
of the round-house. I said, if you let me out between the office and
the old round-house, I can jump off the wall, and get down. Previous to
this time, it was generally thought, in the crowd outside, that Mr.
Pitcairn and some of the officers, (Mr. Watt,) were in the office--in
the outer depot office. It appeared that there was an antipathy against
these men, and they wanted to get at them. Some remarks were made that
they had coffins for them, and others said: Get them out of there. Just
such threats the mob would make. They seemed to have made up their
minds that those men had ordered the double-headers, or the reduction,
and they were going to take their revenge out of them. They were
instructed so (the mob was) by the railroad men. I thought that they
were up there. I didn't know they were away. I thought they were there.
Then I jumped off the wall. In the act of jumping, I was fired at. I
suppose some ten or twelve balls were fired at me by some men there who
had no love for me.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Who fired?
A. The mob outside. I got out of the crowd and into the Union depot. I
found then that it was countermanded--that the fast line was not to go
out. I went into the depot, and I don't know who I found, now--but I
found out that the train was not to go. I found Mr. Pitcairn there, and
I told him I thought it was not a wholesome place for him, that he had
better leave. I told him I thought that some of the men were disposed
to do him some personal damage if they came across him, and from the
way in which the mob or the crowd felt, I didn't think it would be very
well for anybody to get in their way at that time. About nine o'clock
there was somebody came and asked for volunteers to take an engine out
to the outer depot, to take provisions up to the troops. I told them I
would, and I waited for some time, and then I found out that they had
come to the conclusion that it would not be safe to go up. I heard no
more of it until morning. I staid with the engine during that whole
night, and saw the fires getting brighter and brighter, and coming
closer down. I staid there at Union depot until eleven o'clock Sunday,
when I drew the fires out of the engine and left her standing there by
the orders of the depot-master, and went home by the way of the Fifth
avenue street cars. While waiting for dinner, my brother-in-law heard a
train, and I went out on the road, and I saw a train coming backward. I
gave a slight signal and the engineer stopped. It was not very hard to
stop a train then. The conductor inquired what I wanted; he said that
he was going out as far as Walls. I said I would like to go. It seemed
that some of the troops were coming in and came as far as Torrens, and
were ordered back. I went to bed early in the afternoon after getting
there. I came in on Monday, and was at our head-quarters at Fast
Liberty. I thought our foreman was there. I reported for duty. About
noon he asked me to run the Walls accommodation train. I said,
certainly, I will run the train. I run it--no, I did not go out that
trip, for the man who had the engine refused to get off, although he
had asked in the first place to get off. When I came he refused to give
it up. He pulled out a pistol and displayed it, and refused to give the
engine up, yet he had asked in the first place to be relieved. So I
told Mr. Whetman, our foreman of the round-house. Well, says he, let
him run it, but he told me sometime ago, that he was tired and wanted
to be relieved. I remained there until afternoon, when I got orders to
take the engine. I went down again, and said, I have orders to take
this engine. So I took her and run her sometime--I run her that night
from Thirty-third street to Walls and back on regular trips. But I
didn't make the last trip. In the morning I came in at the usual time.
When I came in, it appears that a committee had waited on Mr. Whetman,
and told him to take me off that engine. I believe the man Reynolds
told him that they would not allow me to run the engine. Then Mr. Henry
took the engine and run one round trip, when Mr. Blender took her. But
before this, I was to go to Lawrenceville to take a train down to find
a committee of men to have a conference about the thing. Mr. Garrett
got on the engine. I asked where I was to go at East Liberty. John
Shires and McCullough, who were on, were both of this committee, and
Mr. Garrett told me that these parties wanted to go down for this
conference. Shires spoke up and said, we will give you orders where we
want you to go--we are running this road now. In fact I did not know
who was running it. I had nothing to say. Five or six more parties got
on, and we came to Pittsburgh. Shires gave me orders to go on down.
Things went on so all that week. No train went out until the following
Sunday, when I was ordered to take the yard engine at Torrens, and load
some stock.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Who was Shires?
A. He was a conductor on a shifting engine at that time. On Sunday we
loaded some stock at Torrens I took the engine that usually did that
work. Nobody was on her. I examined the fire and water, and found all
right, and went to move the engine, when the engineer that had been on
her came up and asked me what I was going to do. I said I had orders to
run this engine. He said, I am running this engine. I said all right,
and got off, and reported to Mr. Whetman. He said that the man had
refused to move the stock; but said he would move passenger cars. He
was not willing to move stock. He went down to the man and talked to
him; but it appeared it had no effect. He would not do it. He came back
and said, I want you to take that engine. I went down and tried to
persuade the man. He was a man of family, and I thought he had better
sense. I said to him this thing is all broken up, and it was a mistake
from the start. This stock ought to be loaded, and I said you are
taking revenge out of innocent parties. I said I don't know who will
provide for your family if you are out of work, and I am confident if
you won't work now they won't give you work when you want it. He said
they would have to take him. He would not take the stock, so I took the
engine and loaded the stock.
Q. Did they resist?
A. No; I had no crew then; so Mr. Scott, the agent at the stock-yards,
and Mr. Gummey, volunteered to couple the cars and do the work. So he,
and I, and Mr. Scott did the work. We loaded three or four double
trains that afternoon.
Q. What class of men were engaged in the riot when it first broke out?
A. Well, so far as I know, I think it was caused by one man only
refusing to go out--the flagman of that train.
Q. Of what train?
A. Of the eight-forty.
Q. On Thursday morning?
A. Yes; and I think the rest fell in kind of spontaneously as they came
in off the road.
Q. Have you been able to gather anything from the men, showing that
they had a pre-arranged plan for a strike that morning?
A. Not that particular strike. I understood a month or so before, that
the Trainmen's Union had organized a strike for a certain time, but I
don't remember the day or date. I know there was such talk among the
men, that there would be a strike that day among the brakemen and
conductors. There was nothing of the kind among the engineers, that I
know of, because had the engineers held meetings at other places, I
would have heard them speak of it. Previous to that time there was
nothing among the engineers and firemen; but, the day passed over, and
there was no strike; and, of this strike on Thursday, the 19th, I heard
nothing of it--I knew nothing of it, and our crew knew nothing of
it--at least they said nothing to me, and it appeared to be a surprise
to them when we came in. Railroad men sometimes are very communicative;
they generally let one know, directly or indirectly, what is in the
wind. They generally know one among the other.
Q. Had they any secret organization?
A. I don't know what this Trainmen's Union is. It was a new thing to
me. I heard of it, that is all. I believe that such an organization
existed, and had for some time.
Q. Do you know the objects of the organization?
A. I don't really know--I never heard particularly--only from the
talk of the men It was kind of protective or like all labor
organizations--something of that kind--to unite the men together, and
get them to act in unity.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was it of a beneficial character?
A. No.
Q. It was not like the engineers' organization.
A. No.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. It had no connection with it?
A. No.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. I suppose it is secret?
A. I think it is.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. At the meeting you spoke of, did the engineers and firemen agree to
go into that union?
A. I understood so, but I don't know it.
Q. Do you know whether the Engineers' Brotherhood assisted or
encouraged this strike of the Trainmen's Union?
A. I don't know that they did. If they did, they violated their
obligations. They might have been in sympathy.
Q. They took no formal action in the matter?
A. No; not up to that time.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You have stated that the strike was commenced by one man refusing to
go out?
A. As far as I understand.
Q. At what time was the first effort made to prevent men from going out
who were willing to go?
A. As far as I know--I was out on the road at that time that this
refusal was made--that occurred sometime about eight o'clock in the
morning. I left Pittsburgh at seven-twenty, and didn't get back until
eleven o'clock. What transpired in the meantime, I cannot tell you. I
know nothing about it, only from hearsay.
Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, whether it was discharged men or
men in the employ of the company who would prevent others from going
out, either by persuasion or by force?
A. I don't know that. I know that sometime in the afternoon, when that
attempt was made at three o'clock, or thereabouts, there were employés
and non-employés among the party.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. And some of them had been in the service of the company and
discharged?
A. Yes; and some that had never been in the service.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did you hear any talk about men coming from a distance?
A. It was generally supposed--at the time of the fire and riot, I was
at Union Depot, and I saw them carrying off goods--hauling them off by
wagon loads and wheelbarrow loads--men, women, and children--it was
generally supposed that all the thieves that could get here in two
days, from all the country around, had got here; and I suppose,
everybody thought that the property had better be carried off than be
burned.
Q. Can you give the name of the flagman who first refused to go out?
A. No.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Do you know whether the strike was confined to freight men entirely?
A. I think so; although some of the passenger men may have been in
sympathy with them.
William Ryan, recalled:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Please state whether it was discharged men, or whether it was men
who were then in the employ of the railroad company who first prevented
the trains from going out, either by persuasion or by interference?
A. As far as I could see it was men still in the employ of the company.
On the morning that this occurred they conversed about it. I suppose in
that way they persuaded them not to go out.
Q. Was it known then what men would be discharged under this order?
A. No, sir; it was a mystery to all.
Q. Can you give us the name of the flagman who refused to go out first?
A. Harris, his name was. I gave his name in as Gus. Whether it was
proper or not, I don't know.
* * * * *
John Alexander, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What is your occupation?
A. I am an engineer.
Q. In whose employ were you in July last?
A. In the employ of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company.
Q. As a freight engineer?
A. As a passenger engineer.
Q. On what train?
A. On the Walls accommodation.
Q. At what hours did you leave the Union depot?
A. In the morning, on the first trip, at six-twenty, and on the last
trip leaving Pittsburgh, at five-twenty.
Q. What time did you arrive at Pittsburgh in the morning?
A. Eight-twenty-five.
Q. State whether you were interfered with on the morning of July 19?
A. I was not.
Q. When did you first learn there was any disturbance among the men?
A. About four o'clock that afternoon.
Q. How did you learn it?
A. I was coming down to go out on the five-twenty trip, and when I came
to the round-house, above Twenty-eighth street, I saw a crowd of boys
there. I asked what was going on--I asked somebody that I was
acquainted with, and was told that the freight men were on a strike.
That was, as near as I can tell, about four o'clock.
Q. Who told you that?
A. Robert Hardy.
Q. Do you know whether he was among the strikers?
A. I don't know.
Q. How large a crowd was assembled there?
A. I suppose about fifty persons. I thought that somebody was hurt by
the Johnstown accommodation. It was just such a crowd as gathers when
an accident takes place.
Q. Were they boisterous and noisy?
A. No; I didn't go into the crowd.
Q. Did you have any conversation with any of the men?
A. Nothing further than ascertaining what was going on. I went down to
the lower round-house after my engine.
Q. Did you go out that night?
A. I did.
Q. Were you interfered with?
A. Not in the least--further than having to run carefully through the
crowd.
Q. Were you present during the riotous conduct, on any of those days
from Thursday morning?
A. I made my usual trips on Thursday and on Friday without any trouble,
any more than this crowd getting on and off the engine between Torrens
and Pittsburgh.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What kind of men were those?
A. The majority of them were not railroad men. They didn't appear to be
accustomed to riding trains.
Q. Did they talk?
A. Only among themselves.
Q. What seemed to be their object?
A. They had no object, that I could see.
Q. Merely curiosity?
A. More curiosity than anything else.
Q. Have you any knowledge of new facts not related by the other
engineers or conductors here who have testified?
A. Nothing. They have filled up all I can say.
Q. Can you give us any new light, as to the organization of the men or
their plans of action, or the names of the prominent strikers?
A. I don't know the names of many of them.
Q. What do you know about the causes of the riot?
A. Nothing, only the double-headers.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Were you permitted to run the passenger trains without interference?
A. Until Saturday night.
Q. How about the freight trains. Were they permitted to run?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. They were stopped?
A. Except when I passed through with the train. I was not there. I
didn't see the freight trains from that Thursday until the Sunday after
running. I was aware of the fact that there was a suspension of
business.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What was the difficulty with the passenger trains on Saturday night?
A. Coming in from the five-twenty trip, they told us that we couldn't
go out again. Some men got on the engine and told me so.
Q. Do you know where those men were from?
A. I don't know. It was night, and I didn't pay much attention to their
appearance.
Q. Were they miners, or mill men, or tramps, or railroad men?
A. They were not railroad men; they didn't talk like it, or look like
it.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you hear any threats?
A. They only told me I was not to go out again.
Q, They only complained about the orders for running double-headers?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. These men gave no reasons for refusing to allow you to go out again
on Saturday night?
A. No; I suppose they thought I knew.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did the men know of any reason why the double-headers were to be
run?
A. I was not running freight.
Q. You know nothing about freight?
A. It was about that order I heard them talking.
Adjourned until to-morrow, at three o'clock, P.M.
ORPHANS' COURT ROOM,
PITTSBURGH, SATURDAY, _February 9, 1878_
Pursuant to adjournment, the committee assembled at three o'clock,
P.M., this day, and continued the taking of testimony.