SAME DAY.

ORPHANS' COURT ROOM,

THURSDAY, _February 8, 1878_.

Pursuant to adjournment, the committee re-assembled at three o'clock,

P.M., and continued taking of testimony.

Robert Pitcairn, re-called:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Commence with the troops at the round-house, and tell us what troops

were quartered there, and give a detailed statement of the movements of

the troops from that point during the continuance of the riot?

A. I said that the Philadelphia troops had dispersed the crowd, and

that made an opening for me to get to my office, where I found Mr.

Cassett and General Pearson. General Pearson was telegraphing for more

troops to come up. General Brinton arrived just behind me, and reported

to General Pearson the result, that the troops had fired without

orders, and what had been done. Then there was a consultation as to the

disposition of the troops, whether they should go up the hill or remain

an Twenty-eighth street, or come in to the round-house. They were

asking our opinion. I remember, they asked Mr. Cassatt's opinion. I

told Mr. Cassatt that I did not think he had any opinion. I remained

there, and Mr. Cassatt with me. Before I left they decided that they

were going to take the shops and the round-house to protect their men.

I left, promising to send provisions, and went to the Union depot where

I remained until some time in the night, and then went to Blairsville.

When I left Mr. Cassatt, we had word that Brinton had gone to the

Allegheny side, by the West Penn. That was what induced me to go to

Blairsville. Not knowing where to go to, I felt that was my

head-quarters for the time, we being compelled to run trains over the

West Penn.

Q. When did you arrive at Blairsville?

A. On Monday morning.

Q. When did General Brinton's command arrive there?

A. I think that afternoon or evening. It might have been the next

morning, but I think it was that evening. The next day, though, I was

ordered to remain at Blairsville. I met this committee. Train-master

Geyer wanted me to come down. I came down Tuesday, I think, or it might

have been Wednesday morning, but I met the committee with the

confidence that everything was going to be settled, but they brought

this paper out that I told you was presented to me at Pittsburg, and

with the committee that met me, instead of being very old men that we

considered loyal men, there were some members of the committee who were

among the suspended men. Nevertheless, I communicated the whole

petition to President Scott, and asked for a reply. Mr. Scott's reply

was in substance what Senator Scott told you was their reply to the

citizens here, namely: that the welfare of the country would not allow

him to give way to the men at the present time; that there were other

interests involved, and that if they would go to work to start the

trains again he would be glad to receive them. The conference with that

committee amounted to nothing. The fact of the matter was, I was caught

in a trap. I came down to see my old loyal men, and found suspended

men, who, in an official way, I could not deal with, not being in our

employ. A question was put to me this morning about the number of men

suspended. I do not know how many suspended men we had at that time. I

then came to Pittsburgh. I had orders to repair the damage, and try to

get the main track through to the Union depot as quickly as possible,

to gather up the force then scattered through the city, and the men who

had gone to their homes, to repair the track and get to Union depot as

quickly as possible. I went to the mayor, and asked him if we would

commence work there if he would give protection. He said he would.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. What day was that?

A. I think Thursday. I was gathering up the men, but was cautioned by

some of the citizens not to go out and work too brash in the

beginning--not to take too many men about the ruins to clear them off,

but to commence moderately, explaining the feeling of the city, how

matters were not quiet there, and that delayed me some days. I met

Governor Hartranft at Blairsville before I left, going to Harrisburg.

After he came here we got a large force.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Do you recollect the day he arrived here?

A. As I have said, it was all one day to me. He came here with a force,

and we went to work with a large force and commenced repairing the

damage. On the Sabbath after--that was the Sabbath after the Sabbath

succeeding the Saturday of the fight, we arranged to move our trains,

and we then had force enough to move all the trains, as we had during

all the time, with the exception that this time the men asked for the

military to be sent with each train, to get them through the coal

regions, and through Johnstown. That matter was arranged with Governor

Hartranft to send a lot of soldiers with the men, to get them through

the different points where we had trouble. I think it was the first or

second train that went out from Pittsburgh on that Sabbath evening that

was wrecked at Spring Hill, by a switch being removed by some parties

while the train was passing over. From that Saturday night or Monday

morning next, we gradually sent more trains and more trains, until we

got our road running as heretofore, and gradually repaired the damages.

Governor Hartranft stayed here a few days, and the committees urged

them to stay until, at least, he left for Scranton.

By Mr. Means:

Q. You stated that when you commenced work you commenced with a small

force, and that after Governor Hartranft arrived with the troops, then

you increased your force?

A. Yes, sir; to as many men as we could work.

Q. Did you feel perfectly safe, after the Governor arrived with the

troops, in going to work?

A. Yes. We had a large body of men.

Q. It was under their protection that you felt safe?

A. It was only under their protection.

Q. Did you feel safe from another demonstration of the railroad

employés, or from any other source?

A. I have no hesitation in saying that we were never afraid of our own

men. So far as our own men striking we were not afraid. We were

perfectly able to manage our own men, so far as our own employés were

concerned, if you took away from us the men suspended. But I do not

pretend to say that we were not afraid of the party or parties they

brought. But I know nothing about that, of my own personal knowledge. I

say this: We always had enough men to move our trains, if other parties

had not come in. Who they were brought by, I do not know.

Q. Your own men would never have given you any trouble, had not

outsiders interfered?

A. I say that, but do not pretend to say who brought them.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. It was General Brinton's command which was present when the military

dispersed the crowd by their fire. Was not any portion of General

Pearson's command present?

A. General Pearson's command was at Twenty-eighth street. There were

very few of the soldiers and some of the officers at Twenty-eighth

street. The battery I had taken up on Saturday morning and some few men

were there, and General Pearson's command was on the hill.

Q. Can you tell me why they did not hold their position that they then

occupied--the militia. What necessity was there for retiring to the

round house?

A. I knew what they thought--it was that they were coming under cover

to prevent them from being struck. I was not a military man. However, I

know what I should have done.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. What motives actuated them, after dispersing the crowd, in retiring

their troops to the flat position of the street?

A. After dispersing the crowd, immediately the crowd--not that crowd,

perhaps, but other crowds came back in front of my office--a great

crowd. They were marching by and gathering from all quarters. By

dispersing the crowd, I mean they all ran away, and then they commenced

immediately coming back, and I had pretty hard work to come down to the

office. The crowds were coming up the railway as I was coming down to

the Union depot. All I can say is, they said that the reason for going

to the round house was to get under cover.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Was any effort made by the military to drive back that crowd when

they commenced to reassemble?

A. I was in the office at that time.

Q. Only General Brinton's command went into the round-house?

A. General Pearson's command, I think, was dispersed, but I do not know

it. I know this, that there were there soldiers that came with General

Brinton's command, because some of them came down to the Union depot

with messages.

Q. Had any property been fired or burned at that time?

A. Up to the time that I left no property had been burned.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Would it not have been natural, under military discipline, for the

military to have held their position when they had obtained a position?

A. I think they ought to have gone up on the hill.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. When you returned from Blairsville, you said you expected to meet

your old employés. Now, during all these negotiations, were the old men

and the married men, that you have spoken of as being retained in your

employ, engaged in this riot?

A. Not to my personal knowledge or observation. The majority of them

were running.

Q. Did they make any complaint or any demand upon the company of any

kind?

A. The general remarks of these men then were that they had nothing to

do with this riot. Some of them said they ought to have the ten per

cent. put back, but all deprecated this trouble, and said they had

nothing to do with it.

Q. Were they ready to go to work at all times when you wanted them?

A. They always professed to be, but we never tried them to Sunday

night, and then they wanted protection, and when we gave them

protection they went out.

The following is the paper of the committee appointed by the employés

making certain demands, to which I have already alluded in my

testimony:

BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS,

PITTSBURGH DIVISION, NO. 50,

PITTSBURGH, PA., _July 20, 1877_.

_To the Superintendent Western Division Pennsylvania Railroad_:

_First._ We, the undersigned committee, appointed by the employés

of the western division of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, do

hereby demand from the said company, through the proper officers of

said company, the wages as per departments of engineers, firemen,

conductors, brakemen, and flagmen as received prior to June 1,

1877.

_Second._ That each and every employé that has been dismissed for

taking part or parts in said strikes, to be restored to their

respective positions.

_Third._ That the classification of each said department be

abolished now and forever hereafter.

_Fourth._ That engineers and conductors receive the wages as

received by said engineers and conductors of the highest class

prior to June 1, 1877.

_Fifth._ That the running of double trains be abolished, excepting

coal trains.

_Sixth._ That each and every engine, whether road or shifting,

shall have its own fireman.

Respectfully submitted to you for immediate consideration.

J. S. MCCAULEY,

D. H. NEWHARD,

JOHN SHANA,

G. HARRIS,

JOHN P. KESSLER,

_Committee_.

In regard to the classification mentioned in the paper, I will say

this, that there is no classification in brakemen or flagmen. When you

come to the conductors, they receive a certain rate, which I do not

remember, for the first year, and ten per cent. over that for the

second, and ten per cent. over that for the third, where they remain so

long conductors. Now come the engineers. When promoted from firemen to

engineers, they receive a certain rate, and the second year ten per

cent. more, and the third year ten per cent. more, and the fourth year

ten per cent. more--four classifications. That arrangement was made at

their request, some four years ago, perhaps longer.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. These men were men who would have been suspended under the orders to

run double-headers?

A. No. These men had taken such an active part previous to this

Saturday, that I do not think they would have been kept in our employ,

but we had no opportunity to discharge them.

* * * * *

David M. Watt, _sworn with uplifted hand_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. At East Liberty, on the line of the Pennsylvania railroad.

Q. You are in the employ of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?

A. Yes; in the capacity of chief clerk of the Pittsburg division.

Q. How long have you been employed in that capacity?

A. It will be fourteen years in July next.

Q. You were filling the place of Mr. Pitcairn on the Thursday before

the riot occurred?

A. Yes; during his absence.

Q. Have you any knowledge of any disagreements between the Pennsylvania

Railroad Company and their employés prior to that date?

A. There are continually matters coming up for settlement in the

superintendent's office.

Q. But disagreements leading to the riots?

A. There were none to my knowledge. Had there been, I should have known

it.

Q. Had there been any reduction in wages?

A. Yes; a reduction of ten per cent., which had been notified in May,

to take effect on all the employés from and after June 1.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. All employés?

A. Except those whose pay amounted to one dollar per day, or who were

paid by the month, and whose pay amounted to the rate of one dollar per

day or less.

Q. Did that cause any complaint from the employés?

A. We were compelled to reduce our force on account of the condition of

business. The volume of traffic governs the amount of wages, and the

number of men we work. We had more men than we had the opportunity to

give full time to. It was decided to reduce the force after the 1st of

June, and the idea was to select the older men, and the men who by

their services had proven themselves good and capable. To retain these

and let the single men go, so as to give the married men a chance to

make all the time we could afford to give them in the running of the

traffic. It was also decided to run all the trains double-headers. A

portion of them had been running for years as double-headers, but a

notice was issued in July, advising all the employés that on and after

a certain date--July 19, was the date fixed upon--all trains to and

from Derry would be run as double trains. No complaint in the interval,

between the date of the issuing of the order and the date upon which it

was to go into effect, had been made at the superintendent's office, to

either the superintendent or myself. Nor had there been any, so far as

we had knowledge, to any of the subordinate officers, such as

train-masters and others. Some of the men complained, of course, at not

having work. It was a mooted question as to who would be the ones to go

off.

Q. What date was that order to go into effect?

A. Upon July 19; Thursday. Mr. Pitcairn had arranged to go east on

Thursday, July 19, in the day express, and I came to town, reaching the

office about eight and a half o'clock in the morning, and up to that

time no trouble had occurred, nor was any anticipated by the

train-masters nor any one in our employ. About the time the

eight-forty's--the extras--were to leave, the dispatcher came to the

office and reported that some of the men had refused to go out. I made

inquiry as to the reason of their refusal, and was told that they

refused to go out on account of its being a double-header. Conductor

Ryan was the man whose train did not go out. In the making up of his

train he was ready to go out, but his men refused to go. I then

instructed the dispatcher to call upon all the men on the road, with

those out at the train-men's room. He called upon, I believe, some

twenty-five men, brakemen, who refused to go out. They gave different

reasons, some because they were double-headers, and some because they

would not go if others did not go. Mr. Garrett, the assistant

train-master, came in on the train that reaches there about nine

o'clock. I sent for him, and told him what had been reported to me, and

asked him to go out and see the men and see what they wanted, and

report. Mr. Garrett, and Mr. McCabe, and Mr. Hunter, dispatchers, all

three tried to induce the men to go out, but these twenty-five that had

first refused got the balance to join them in refusing to man the

trains. Mr. Garrett, I believe, requested Mr. McCabe, the general yard

dispatcher, to make up a crew from the yard brakemen to man that train.

Conductor Ryan was at all times ready to go out, and the engineers

belonging to that train professed a readiness to run. We had a number

of conductors there ready to run, and Conductor Gordon was the man who

was going to take the train out after Mr. McCabe had secured the crew

among his yard men. The crew, in making up their train, were assaulted

with stones, and links, and pins, and driven from the train by a number

of those men who had first refused to go out. I found that we were

unable to get the train out. Then it came time for the nine-forty's to

go out. In the meantime the crowd had increased somewhat, and they had

taken possession of the switch which is west of Twenty-eighth street,

leading on to the main track, over which a train to go east would have

to be moved. It was reported to me that they would not allow the engine

to go over that switch. The crowd was increasing. I then started, after

a consultation with Mr. Garrett and other men there, to call upon the

mayor. I asked that he should protect us in the movement of our trains,

by removing from Twenty-eighth street, or that immediate neighborhood,

those parties interfering with the switches.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Did you call in person upon the mayor?

A. I did; between ten and eleven o'clock. I drove to the mayor's

office, and stated the trouble to him, and called upon him in the name

of the company for protection. He replied that he had no force.

Q. Mayor McCarthy?

A. Yes; he said that the day-light force had been taken off, probably,

about the 1st of July, and that he had nothing but the night force. I

asked him to give me the front office force. He said he could not send

them away. I told him I must have protection of some kind. He said that

he might send out and gather up a force. He wanted to know how many men

I wanted. I told him if he would send up ten men in uniform, that with

our own force from the depot, if he could go up to the ground with me,

and I had a buggy to take him, I thought the trouble would be all over

before twelve o'clock. I thought the simple fact of his presence,

without the police, would disperse the crowd there at that time. He

refused to go, saying that he could not leave the office. I rather

urged the matter upon him. The mayor then said he had been sick, and

was not fit to go. He gathered a force of some ten men, I believe, and

sent officer Charles McGovern, one of the front office men, in charge

of them. They were to report at the Union depot, and be moved from

there by a passenger car to run especially to Twenty-eighth street.

Before the force was sent, the question was asked of me, who was to pay

for the men.

Q. By whom?

A. The question was suggested by Mr. O'Mora, and addressed to the

mayor. The mayor then addressed me, and desired to know whether I was

in a position to assume the expense. I told him certainly, that I must

have protection, and that if he could not give the force, and I must

pay for it, I was then ready, and would become responsible for the

payment of the men. I went to the outer depot, and got there a few

minutes before the squad of police arrived. I walked up to

Twenty-eighth street, in company with one of the dispatchers, I think

McCabe, and was then advised that we could not turn the switch, that

those parties held the switch, and would not allow the engine to back

down. The engineer was John Sweeny, and the conductor was S. K. Moore.

We wanted to take the engine down to couple on to a draft of cars to

take them out on the Wilkensburg siding. I directed Moore to turn the

switch. He refused, saying to me that he was afraid, that there were

men there to shoot him the moment he attempted to turn the switch. I

replied: "Very good, I will turn the switch," and I made a step forward

for the purpose of getting to the switch, when the crowd gathered

around me, and a brakeman by the name of D. D. Davis, who, I believe,

at the time was in the employ of the Pan Handle road, or else a

discharged employé from there--he was not in our employ--jumped in

front of me, and waving his hand, or his hat, called out: "Boys, we

will die right here." I placed my hand upon his coat, and called upon

officer McGovern to arrest him. While my hand was upon his coat, some

one delivered a blow, and hit me in the eye. That was from behind this

man Davis. Immediately an attempt was made on the part of the police

officers to arrest him. Others interested with him were throwing

themselves in the way of the police officers to prevent the capture,

but he was finally captured, and taken to the station-house. Prior to

that time, however, I had reported to Mr. Pitcairn on the day express

east that there was trouble, but that I did not anticipate it would

amount to a great deal, and that he need not hurry home, unless further

advised by me. The first place I could reach him was at Altoona. After

having been struck, and finding the crowd increasing, and determined to

prevent the running of the trains, I made a still further report,

stating the condition of things, and he came back to Pittsburgh on the

next train on which he could reach here, the fast line west that night.

After I was struck, I believe I directed Mr. Smith to write a message,

either in my name, or in Mr. Pitcairn's, I do not recollect, and

addressed to the mayor, calling upon him for an additional force of not

less than fifty men. It may have been a portion of those men who came

up on the Atlantic express, six or eight, in charge of William J.

White. Mr. Garrett reported from Torrens an immense crowd gathered

there. I went up on the Atlantic with this police force to try to

endeavor to get the stock. There were forty-six cars, all loaded with

stock, waiting for this train to come out. We expected every moment to

get some train started. Mr. Garrett had made an arrangement to side

track some train coming west, and to take the engines and turn them at

Torrens, and go east with the stock. They were there interfered with by

quite a large crowd, who notified the employés on the trains that had

come west that they must not couple to or touch the cars, intimidating

them and threatening that they would be killed, or that something would

happen.

Q. Who composed that crowd?

A. A number of railroad employés of our road and other roads and

parties I didn't know, but supposed them to be not railroad men.

Q. Who seemed to be leading the crowd at Torrens?

A. A man who had been in our employ until the morning of

Thursday--Andrew Hice. He notified the parties that he would be damned

if any stock should move there, and that no train should pass there

until the matter was settled.

Q. Was he an engineer?

A. He had been at one time a conductor on the road. Up until that

Thursday morning he was in the employ of the company as a flagman. I

might here state that when I directed Mr. Garrett to go out and see the

men, he was told to notify all those employés who were called upon, and

who refused to go out, that they might consider themselves as

discharged. One party was paid off immediately; the others had not come

for their pay, and nothing was said about paying or reporting them

discharged until after the troubles were over.

Q. Did you have any conversation with those men yourself at that time?

A. Which men?

Q. With that crowd--those leaders?

A. I did have a conversation at Twenty-eighth street, before going to

Torrens. I called upon the crowd to disperse and leave the ground of

the company, that we proposed to move our trains, and did not desire to

have any trouble.

Q. Did they make any demands at that time, and if so, what were the

nature of those demands?

A. They did not. They simply said it was a question of bread or blood

with them. At Torrens I had a conversation with the engineers and

conductors of the trains coming west, and tried to persuade them to

couple on to the stock and go ahead. They, however, refused, and gave

as a reason, that they were afraid for their lives to do so. Mr. Thomas

Scott, day stock agent at East Liberty, and the dispatcher both said to

the crews that they would couple the cars if they would back the

engines; but the crews were too much intimidated to do that. Mr.

Garrett started with those engines to go east, and was to stop at

Wilkensburg to take there a draft of twenty-two to thirty-two freight

cars, and start for Derry with them. He and I had an understanding that

I would attempt to get the stock from there somehow. I was to advise

him after he left whether he might expect it. We gave it out that the

stock was to be unloaded, and the shifting engine at the station, there

for the purpose of shifting around the yard, backed down against the

stock, and, that being coupled to the train, they started at once, and

before they discovered what we were after, the train was out of reach,

and this train that Mr. Garrett had taken east stopped and took on the

stock at Walls. This was the last stock that we got away from East

Liberty. East Liberty is four and five tenths miles, and Torrens is

half a mile further east. I staid at Torrens waiting the movements of a

train from Pittsburgh--the train that should come out in the afternoon.

An attempt was made about four o'clock to move that train. A crowd

interfered after the engines had started, and the engineers left their

engines, and the crews gave up the trains. I then came back to

Pittsburgh and went to the office, and made a still further report to

Mr. Pitcairn. I then drove again to the mayor's office. I met Captain

Bachelor at the office. He wanted to know if he could do me any

service.

Q. He called in the capacity of a private citizen?

A. Yes.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Who is he?

A. The president of the Mason's bank. I found, on inquiry, that the

mayor was not about when I got to his office. I was informed by his

clerk, Mr. Metzgar, that he had gone out to Castle Shannon in the

afternoon. That his wife was sick, and that he had gone to see her. I

then asked whether anything could be done to call out the night force,

fearing from the way the crowd was increasing that there might be

considerable trouble. They said they could not send the police force

out there and leave the balance of the city unprotected. I then drove

up here to the sheriff's office--or rather the captain drove up--and

found all closed here. I then drove to the sheriff's residence, on

Washington street, and they replied that he was out of the city, but

was expected back during the evening. I then went back to the office,

and found that we could not make any movement that night, though we

held the crews ready to go in case we had a chance to move.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. What night was this?

A. It was on Thursday night. I reported the condition of affairs to Mr.

John Scott, who had called at the office on his way into town, in

pursuance of a message from the east, to consult with Mr. Pitcairn.

During that night, and before twelve o'clock, the crowd was

accumulating, and had entire possession of the tracks at Twenty-eighth

street, so that we were unable to move even the engines engaged in the

yard transfer work. The engineers had all been notified to put up their

engines, and go into the house, and the movement of stock was

interfered with. The movement of stock from the western roads--some was

turned back. There seemed to be some trouble among the parties

themselves as to whether the stock should go on or be sent back. I

called at the office of the Pennsylvania company, to get the Honorable

John Scott to go with me, and we called upon the sheriff in the name of

the company for protection, and stated all that had been done up to

that time. The sheriff got his deputy, who lived across the way, and we

all drove out to the outer depot. On the way out we saw Mr. Pitcairn

walking up, and took him in and rode to the outer depot--I think a

little after twelve o'clock, midnight; the sheriff, after a

consultation, went with General Pearson and some twenty or thirty men

of our employés, myself among the number, to Twenty-eighth street. He

there mounted upon a plank leading up on to a gondola, so that his head

was above the crowd, and addressed them, advising them to leave and go

to their homes, stating what his duty would be in case they did not go.

He was greeted with all sorts of vile abuse, and told to go home. I

will not repeat the language. He found he could do nothing there with

them. He was jeered at, and while he was addressing the crowd pistol

shots were fired in the air. That crowd was composed of some few

railroad men, but the majority were not railroad men--a great number of

them were mill men, and some of them with no occupation at all.

Q. How large was the crowd at that time?

A. I should judge in the neighborhood of two hundred men. The sheriff

then went back to the superintendent's office, and entered into

communication with Harrisburg and other points, sending the telegrams

as described by Mr. Scott. There was no other attempt made that night

to move anything, except stock to the stockyard from the connecting

lines.

Q. What occurred on Friday morning?

A. We had crews brought in from Derry--that is the train-masters. They

came in as passengers, ready to take the trains east. The majority of

the engineers, up to this time, had professed their entire willingness

to run at any and all times, but the crowd, on Friday, had increased to

such an extent that it was not deemed prudent to attempt to start the

trains without some protection afforded to the men running them, at

least through the crowd. Very little was done during Friday, except the

movement of stock. Friday night the troops were moved, the Fourteenth

and Nineteenth regiments, I believe, to the neighborhood of

Twenty-eighth street. I expected on Saturday morning that we would

start our trains without much trouble. I believe they took almost

complete and entire possession of Twenty-eighth street and the switches

that we needed to get our trains out.

Q. That is the troops took possession?

A. Yes; they had full possession of Twenty-eighth street on Saturday

morning.

Q. And all the switches you needed to get your trains out?

A. Yes. But the crowd assembled in very large numbers, and it was not

long before the crowd had possession of them, and all the ground.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. Driving the troops off?

A. There was no conflict at all. The troops were stationed, one

regiment on the hillside, probably some two hundred feet back from the

line of the railroad, with their arms stacked, and another regiment was

stationed on the road leading up to the hospital grounds, east of

Twenty-eighth street, with their arms stacked, and a few men were on

the crossing.

By Mr. Means:

Q. I want to know if those troops left their arms stacked while the

crowd was still accumulating?

A. The crowd was in and about there. Do you mean whether or not the

crowd could have taken possession of any of those arms without

interference?

Q. No; but whether while the crowd was still accumulating the troops

had their arms stacked?

A. The crowd was accumulating, and continued accumulating up to the

time of the firing.

Q. And the arms were still stacked?

A. Yes, sir; while I was there.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. That is Friday evening?

A. No; Saturday morning. Mr. Pitcairn, and Mr. Cassett, and General

Pearson, and other officers were at the Union depot. I remained at

Twenty-sixth street, awaiting any instruction that might be sent me. I

was advised by Mr. Pitcairn to hold myself in readiness to move some

trains on Saturday afternoon--that the sheriff and posse were coming up

the track, and that they would be followed by the troops, and that he

expected that the crowd would be dispersed, and that we would be

furnished a sufficient guard to place upon each one of those trains to

move them out beyond Torrens, or to any other point where we might

expect trouble. I waited, and met them as they came up. They were

followed by quite a large concourse of persons. The troops held the

track about opposite Twenty-fifth street, and there the Second brigade

of the Philadelphia troops was left. I do not now remember the name of

the general in command. However I was left with him. The First brigade

moved on to Twenty-eighth street. This Second brigade threw out a

skirmish line across the entire yard, with instructions from the

general to drive back everybody. It was General Loud. He threw out a

skirmish line and drove all parties west a sufficient distance for us

to couple together all our cars and to make up our trains to go out.

Q. Drove them towards the city, you mean?

A. Yes; quite a crowd of the transfer clerks, and some of our

engineers, and oil men, and repair men were on the tops of the cars,

who claimed to be employés, and had business there. General Loud sent

an officer to me and asked if they were to remain there or whether we

wanted them. I told him that we did not want anybody within a certain

distance. When we had made attempts, prior to that, to couple up the

trains, the links and pins all along had been taken out. I went down

and advised the transfer clerks to go into the office, and I told the

officer that when any of our men had business to be inside, they should

be let through, and I told them that if we wanted them we could advise

them. After having cleared off that space, we heard firing. I looked up

in the direction of Twenty-eighth street, and saw a crowd coming down,

a portion of them coming down towards where I was, right opposite the

mouth of Twenty-sixth street. Seeing the crowd coming, I had the gate

thrown open--the gate that closes the shops and the exit gate on

Liberty street thrown open--and directed colonel, some one of the

Greys, to throw a body across to prevent them going down the space he

had cleared, and that we could turn them out at that point out on

Twenty-sixth street. That firing occurred about five o'clock. When I

speak of time in my testimony, I speak altogether of railroad time.

There was no further attempt made that night to start trains. The

excitement was so great, and it was quite late, so the men refused to

go for fear of being thrown off the track at some point on the road. I

believe that brings me up to the time of the firing.

Q. You had a space sufficient cleared to enable you to get your cars

out?

A. Our engines were backed down from the round-house on to those tracks

that the trains were standing on. We had cleared off a space there from

the side hill to the line of the "transfer" clear of anyone and

everyone.

Q. What prevented you from moving out your trains at that time?

A. The men got frightened at the firing, and started off. They were

afraid that if they made an attempt at that time in that excitement

that they would be thrown from the track.

Q. Where were the militia then?

A. General Loud was still in his position between Twenty-sixth street,

and, I should judge, Twenty-fourth. The First division was at

Twenty-eighth street, and a considerable portion of the crowd was

between Twenty-sixth and Twenty-eighth streets, between the two bodies

of troops. I asked the colonel in charge of this Grey regiment not to

allow his men to fire on the crowd coming down, that they could be

turned out at Twenty-sixth street, and that some of our men were there

who were all right. He got in front of his men and cautioned them. He

first gave the command to a captain to have his men load their pieces.

That was done, and then he cautioned his men, saying it was a very

delicate matter, indeed, and that the men should be very careful, and

that when there was any necessity for any firing that the men must

remember that he would give the command.

Q. How long did the troops remain stationed as you have described?

A. I cannot answer that as to time. I went to the office and there saw

General Pearson and General Brinton, and some of the others in

consultation. They were all close around the shops, and they then

turned and moved into the shops. I suppose it was then about six

o'clock.

Q. Where did the troops stay during the night?

A. I was not there during the night.

Q. Do you know from your own knowledge?

A. They stayed in what we call the lower round-house and lock-shops.

Q. What troops stayed there?

A. I understand the Philadelphia troops, General Brinton's command, and

the two pieces belonging to the battery here were taken into the

round-house. The Fourteenth regiment had been stationed at the transfer

building. The reason, I think, for their going into the shops, as I

understood it, was that the men who were there had come without any

preparation, and as there were to be no trains run out that night, they

would go into the shops to be as comfortable as possible.

Q. Was any further effort made during that night to start any trains?

A. We were unable to make any efforts further.

Q. Can you tell us what became of the crowd during the night?

A. The crowd around the buildings accumulated so that in front of the

office, at the corner of Twenty-sixth and Liberty, and for some

distance on either side of it--that being the head-quarters--the

office--they had taken possession of Mr. Pitcairn's office for the

head-quarters--the crowd was very dense, and packed down Twenty-sixth

street, probably half way to Penn, and on Liberty street, in every

direction, for a square--an immense crowd of people yelling with rage

against the troops.

Q. How many would you judge were there at that time?

A. Not less than five thousand people.

Q. Did they remain in force during all the night?

A. I was not there during all the time, but I understood they were

constantly accumulating.

Q. Until Sunday morning?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How large was the crowd on Sunday morning?

A. I cannot answer that. I was on the side hill early on Sunday

morning, and I could see immense crowds in all directions moving up

Liberty street.

Q. Can you tell us what the result of that firing, at the point

cleared, was as to loss of life?

A. I am not prepared to answer that. If you will remember, I was

stationed at Twenty-sixth street, and was not at Twenty-eighth street.

At the time of the firing, I was with the second brigade of General

Brinton's division. There passed me, and were taken into our office,

several soldiers belonging to the First regiment, and a boy who was

shot down. I should judge a boy about twelve or fourteen years of age.

There were two men carrying him. Quite a number of wounded soldiers

were taken to the office, and they sent for Doctor Hamilton.

Q. Can you state what efforts were made, after the troops were taken

into the round-house and the shops, by the officers of the militia to

drive back the crowd and disperse it there that night or Sunday

morning, or during the day of Sunday?

A. When they went into the round-house, I understood they would keep

under cover. I do not think, from all I understood, it was the

intention of the troops to come into any collision. They felt that they

were brought there to protect the movement of trains, and that there

would be a guard go out on each train, after having obtained possession

of the Twenty-eighth street switches.

Q. What time did the firing of cars commence by the mob?

A. I cannot answer that from my own knowledge. I believe in the

neighborhood of ten o'clock.

Q. Saturday night?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was any attempt made by the officers of the troops, or by the civil

authorities, either of the county or city, to prevent that, and to

drive back the crowd when they began to fire the cars and destroy

property?

A. I cannot answer that. I did not see any.

Q. By any of the authorities?

A. I did not see any.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. Did it appear that the citizens were in sympathy with the strikers?

A. I am a Pittsburgher.

Q. But I ask were the citizens in sympathy with the strikers?

By Senator Yutzy: I think, Mr. Chairman, that that question ought to be

modified. All the citizens were not present.

By the witness:

A. If you asked me the question whether or not the citizens, or any

number of them, came to me and offered their assistance, then I might

answer the question. The crowd certainly manifested no disposition to

assist in the running of trains. The crowd, of course, was in sympathy.

I speak of those who were present at Twenty-eighth street and

Twenty-sixth street, on Liberty street, fronting the office, and I

should say there were none at all in sympathy with the railroad

company, but the soldiers.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. But that does not answer my question. I desire to know whether the

citizens were not in sympathy with the strikers?

By Senator Yutzy: I repeat, Mr. Chairman, that I do not think this

question should be put to the witness. I move that the committee retire

for a few moments' consultation.

This motion being agreed to, the committee retired.

Upon returning, the chairman of the committee announced to the witness

that the question would not be pressed for the present.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What time did the first firing occur?

A. In the neighborhood of five o'clock. It was, probably, a few minutes

after five o'clock.

Q. But when did the first firing occur--that is, when was the fire

first kindled by the mob?

A. In the neighborhood of ten o'clock.

Q. Was any effort made by the railroad company, during the night, to

prevent the firing and destruction of property?

A. I would hardly know how to answer that. The railroad employés that

we had considered loyal and ready to run, when we desired them to go on

the trains, had gone to their homes, it not being deemed prudent to run

any trains that night. I left the outer depot in the neighborhood of

seven o'clock, to go down to the Union depot for supper, and to arrange

for the sending of supper for General Pearson's staff, and General

Brinton's staff, and all his brigade generals' staff. I went to the

Union depot with Mr. Pitcairn and Mr. Cassatt, and, I think, Colonel

Smith, on engine forty-five. At that time the military were in

possession of the shops and round-house, and I did not anticipate that

anything would be done until daylight. The firing of the cars was, I

understand, up at Lawrenceville, or just within sight of there, and the

cars were dropped down, and the switches so turned that they would run

towards the round-house--the burning cars, these, of course, would

communicate to other cars.

Q. Would the cars run themselves?

A. It is down grade from East Liberty to Lawrenceville, and there a

moderate down grade until about Twenty-sixth street, where there is a

short level space, probably, two or three squares, and then there is an

up grade west of that point until you reach about opposite St.

Bridget's church, where again it is down grade, so that a car started

from the east would run towards the round-house, and a car started from

the west end of the yard would run toward the round-house.

Q. Do you know how long the troops remained in the round-house?

A. I understand they left between five and six o'clock that morning.

Q. Sunday morning?

A. Yes.

Q. You were not present there?

A. No.

Q. You do not know what occurred from your own knowledge?

A. Except from what I saw from the hillside.

Q. You were present during the day--Sunday?

A. No.

Q. Were you where you could see the movement of the rioters?

A. Not after four o'clock, Sunday morning.

Q. How long did the riotous proceedings continue--in other words, when

did the mob disperse and cease their burning and destruction of

property?

A. I left town on Sunday night at nine o'clock, and I understand they

were still riotous. Of my own knowledge I know nothing after that time.

Our head-quarters were at Blairsville intersection.

Q. When did you first get control of your road and property at this

point?

A. Mr. Pitcairn came west from Blairsville intersection on Wednesday,

July 25, I think on the Johnstown accommodation. We were then running

our through connections over the West Penn Division, from Allegheny

city to Blairsville intersection, and on the main line as far as East

Liberty, our mail trains, and our passenger trains, and our Uniontown

express over the south-west road.

Q. Were you present when the troops fired upon the crowd? If so, state

all the circumstances that took place at that time?

A. I have already said that I was not at Twenty-eighth street at the

time of the firing, but was with General Loud at Twenty-sixth street.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. You know nothing then as to what transpired at Twenty-eighth street?

A. Except by seeing the crowd running, and hearing the firing, which

was of an irregular character--not a volley at all.

By Mr. Means:

Q. The firing was something like the firing of a skirmish line?

A. Yes.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Who composed the crowd at that time? Were they railroad employés or

stragglers in general, or were there any other persons in the vicinity

mixed with the crowd to any extent?

A. There was quite a very large number of lookers on, stationed on the

hill side above--men, women, and children, scattered all along,

probably for a distance of fifty thousand feet.

Q. How close were they to the persons carrying on the riot?

A. Probably from a hundred to two hundred and fifty feet above them.

And at Twenty-eighth street, and east and west of Twenty-eighth street,

and covering all of the tracks before the troops came up, there were

many people. All our trains passing--we were running all the

accommodation trains east and west--were boarded at Twenty-eighth

street by the crowd, who filled them up, and ran through the cars, and

piled upon the engines, so as to seriously interfere with the men in

the performance of their duties. The crowd, many through curiosity,

went upon the trains in such force that it was useless for any of our

men to attempt to collect fare. The engines were perfectly black, both

in front of the engine and the tank and the platform. A great number of

those men got on and would go through the trains to see who was in

them, before they would let them proceed.

Q. Were the passenger trains interfered with by the mob?

A. All were stopped at Twenty-eighth street, and the mob went through

and examined each and every train for soldiers.

Q. And then allowed them to go on?

A. Sometimes it was a very serious question. If we had not had some

engineers determined that they were going to try to get their trains

through, they would have cut the passenger trains off and allowed

nothing but mail cars to go.

By Mr. Means:

Q. On the 23d of July, did the sheriff not throw a guard around the

burned district?

A. I was stationed then at Blairsville Intersection, and I cannot

answer that question of my own knowledge.

Q. Then you do not know whether on or after the 23d day of July the

railroad company could or could not have had entire control, if they

had seen fit?

A. Most decidedly they could not, simply for the fact that they could

not get beyond Lawrenceville station.

Q. But did not the sheriff throw a guard around the burned district?

A. I don't know. I was not in the city on the 23d of July. But the

tracks were all burned between Thirty-third street, or Lawrenceville,

and the Union depot.

ORPHANS' COURT ROOM,

PITTSBURGH, FRIDAY, _February 8, 1878_.

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