Mr. LAWSON. In the lead car.
Mr. McCLOY. Was in the lead car. I don't know whether you want to--I
have got to leave. Are you going to ask why they didn't go down Main
Street?
Mr. STERN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Take care of that. The suggestion was made yesterday--you
are going to cover that?
(Discussion off the record.)
Representative FORD. I would like if I might to follow up with a
question which you asked a minute ago on the record. As I recall your
testimony, Mr. Lawson, you indicated that the police who were assigned
along the route had the responsibility to check windows and the crowd.
Is that what you indicated?
Mr. LAWSON. And also the agents as they went by; yes sir. It wouldn't
be just a police responsibility; no, sir.
Representative FORD. How did the police know they had that
responsibility?
Mr. LAWSON. In our police meetings, of which we had three or four
listed in here, we talked about crowd control and watching the crowd,
and of course the agents just do that anyway. That is part of their
function. And in the newspaper accounts it said how watchful the police
were going to be of all kinds of activity, and actually they requested
public assistance, as I recall it, anyone that noticed anything unusual
they had asked that they notify the police.
Representative FORD. When you meet with police officials, in this case
Chief Curry, Sheriff Decker, and who else, is this clearly laid out
that the members of their organization have the specific responsibility
of checking windows? Do you followup to see whether this is actually
put in writing to the members of the police force, and the Sheriff's
department?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I do not followup to see if it was put in writing.
Mr. DULLES. You mean an external check don't you? You don't mean going
through each building?
Representative FORD. No. As I understood it, policemen have the
responsibility to check windows and to look at the crowd, and I was
just wondering whether there is any followup to be sure that the chief
of police and the sheriff or anybody else actually makes this specific
communication to the people in their organizations.
Mr. LAWSON. In this particular instance there was not. Sometimes on my
own advances I have received copies of police directives. Sometimes
this is covered and sometimes there are other directives. This is not
normal though. It is just that the police say "Here is a copy of one
of our orders." Sometimes it is the posting of police, sometimes it
is that. In Berlin where I was assisting on an advance for President
Kennedy's trip in June, we received all kinds of information of this
type, even to the fact where the police had requested anyone to notify
them of anyone that tried to gain entry into their room that didn't
belong there, if it was a business office or if it was a private home
or if all of a sudden they discovered they had a friend that they never
knew they had before and all that. But this is not always done.
Mr. McCLOY. I want to get it clear. In your presence, in the
instructions to the police in Dallas, did you tell the police to keep
their eye on windows as you went along?
Mr. LAWSON. I cannot say definitely that I told the police to watch
windows. I usually do. On this particular case I cannot say whether I
definitely said that. I believe I did, but I would not swear to the
fact that I said watch all the windows.
Mr. McCLOY. I have heard it rumored that there was a general routine
in the Secret Service that when you were going through in a motorcade
or by car, that the problem of watching windows was so great that
you didn't do it. It was only as you came to a stop that it was the
standing instructions that then roofs should be watched and places of
advantage would be inspected or looked at. Is that true?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; the agents in the motorcade are to watch the route
and the rooftops and the windows as they can. Of course there were
thousands of windows there, over 20,000 I believe on that motorcade.
But agents are supposed to watch as they go along.
Representative FORD. An advance agent such as yourself goes to talk
with local police officials?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Do you have a checklist? Do you have a procedure
in writing that you hand to a local law enforcement agent so that he is
clear as to the responsibilities of himself and his people?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I have no checklist, although myself I have a
number of things that I have marked down from past advances and seeing
what other individuals do that I usually try to follow.
However, every situation is so different. Sometimes there are
motorcades and sometimes there are not, and it just wouldn't fit every
situation.
Representative FORD. But there is no specific list of instructions that
the Secret Service gives to a local law enforcement agency?
Mr. LAWSON. No.
Representative FORD. At the time of the Presidential visit?
Mr. LAWSON. No.
Representative FORD. Do you think that it would be helpful?
Mr. LAWSON. It would be helpful in a general way. And it could be
augmented to fit the situation.
Representative FORD. In other words, if you had general instructions
you could give those to the local law enforcement people, and as you
say, for special circumstances, or different circumstances, you could
augment them at the scene?
Mr. LAWSON. I believe it would be helpful. For example, I know that
New York police have, because we were up there so often, and I just
returned from there yesterday, they have a checklist of their own in
the police meetings with the Secret Service that they go over, what
time the arrival is, where he is going to be met, is it a motorcade, is
it a helicopter, et cetera. But still there are many more things that
should be in there.
Representative FORD. But I would think for every Presidential visit
there would be certain mandatory things that would have to be done,
areas of responsibility of Federal officials, areas of responsibility
for local officials.
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Such a memorandum or checklist I should think
would be helpful in defining the areas of responsibility, being certain
that there is no misunderstanding as to whose responsibility it is for
A, B, C, or D operations.
Mr. LAWSON. I agree.
Mr. STERN. Were any arrangements made to inspect buildings along the
parade route?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; other than those buildings that we were stopping
at.
Mr. STERN. And this would be?
Mr. LAWSON. The Trade Mart.
Mr. STERN. And Love Field?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Is it recognized in your business, if it is a fact, that
a building that affords a window that looks down parallel with the
motorcade is an unusually vulnerable point? Do you get the trend of my
question?
Mr. McCLOY. Parallel rather that at right angles?
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. LAWSON. I know that there are some windows that are more vulnerable
than others, let's say.
Mr. DULLES. That give a more vulnerable point of attack?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; if you were going in a motorcade at 50 or
60 miles an hour and then all of sudden there was some reason why
something narrowed down and you had to slow up or you knew there was
going to be a big crowd here and the President would probably slow his
vehicle like he usually did for big crowds and stand up and wave, then
you would be more concerned about those windows in that area than other
areas. This motorcade to my knowledge, we went 15 or 20 miles an hour
through most of it except the downtown section at about 7 or 10.
Mr. McCLOY. 10 or 7 did you say?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; 7 to 10 miles an hour.
Mr. DULLES. In this case I assume that if anyone had been looking at
windows, the car that would have seen the rifle and the man would have
been a car several cars back from the President's car, is that not
correct?
Mr. McCLOY. It might have been the other.
Representative FORD. The testimony of one of these young men that we
had, if it is accurate, I would have thought that the lead car might
have seen the Book Depository.
Mr. STERN. We will hear testimony from another passenger in the lead
car, Mr. Sorrels, who was in charge of the Dallas Secret Service
Office, that as the car turned from Houston onto Elm, he saw people
in the windows of the School Book Depository Building. He cannot
recall seeing anyone on the sixth floor, and it is more likely that
he saw people on the fifth floor from his descriptions. He saw some
Negro employees. But he could see from the lead car people in the Book
Depository Building as it came in view around the corner.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see anybody in the School Book Depository?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; at this point just as we started around that
corner I asked Chief Curry if it was not true that we were probably
5 minutes from the Trade Mart, and it is quite usual to make a radio
call to your next point of stop that you are 5 minutes away. Therefore
right about the time we turned that corner and were a little ways past
it, I am sure I was speaking on the radio, because the White House
Communications Agency has about the time I gave the 5 minutes away
warning signal, and within seconds after that the shots were fired.
Representative FORD. As you came or as the lead car came down Houston
Street----
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. You were facing the Texas School Depository?
Mr. LAWSON. Right.
Representative FORD. Did you look at or scan that building?
Mr. LAWSON. I do not, no, because part of my job is to look backwards
at the President's car. The speed of the motorcade is controlled by
the President's car, unless is it is an emergency situation. If he
stands up and is waving at the crowd and there are quite a few crowds
then, of course, the car goes slower. If the density of the crowd is
quite scarce or there is a time factor why you are going faster. So
the person in the lead car in this rolling command car usually keeps
turning around and watching the President's car. If his car comes up
on our bumper that means we are not going fast enough and we should go
faster, and you tell the command officer to call the motorcycles, the
pilot car, et cetera, to move out faster. If you notice that his car is
dropping back from you, that means their car wants to go slower and you
do the same thing in reverse. So I was watching the crowds along the
sides, requesting Chief Curry to move motorcycles up or back, depending
on the crowd, move them up towards the President's car because at
certain times people were almost out to the car, and to use them as
kind of a wedge. Other times they were able to drop back or go forward,
so that I was looking back a good deal of the time, watching his car,
watching the sides, watching the crowds, giving advice or asking
advice from the Chief and also looking ahead to the known hazards like
overpasses, underpasses, railroads, et cetera.
Representative FORD. But as the lead car turned from Main onto Houston
and proceeded toward Elm, you were more preoccupied with looking at the
President?
Mr. LAWSON. I don't know whether I was looking sideways or backwards
then, but I do recall noticing the Book Depository Building and that
corner and then deciding that we must be about 5 minutes away, and
asking Chief Curry if this was not so and then making a radio broadcast.
Representative FORD. So as you drove down Houston Street, you didn't
have an opportunity to look at the Texas School Depository?
Mr. LAWSON. I may have, but I don't remember if I saw this. I was doing
so many things all at once.
Representative FORD. What was Sorrels' responsibility at this point?
Mr. LAWSON. His responsibility would be again to watch the crowds and
the windows a little bit more than I because it was my responsibility
to be watching the Presidential car.
Mr. STERN. He was sitting in the rear right, was he not?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes, sir; and I was in the right front.
Representative FORD. He didn't have the responsibility of looking back
like you did?
Mr. LAWSON. Not as much as I would have; no, sir.
Representative FORD. In light of the problem of trying to have
individuals in numerous buildings, inspecting the buildings and so
forth, is it desirable to have more people in another car ahead of the
lead car for the purpose of scanning buildings?
Mr. LAWSON. Giving a personal opinion now, I would say that that would
be a good factor. However, if someone stayed back from the window until
you went by and then stuck his gun out the window, why it might not be
as good.
Representative FORD. It wouldn't be any worse.
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; but if they did see something that wasn't a likely
occurrence, then they could broadcast over the radio stop the President
or turn right or turn left.
Representative FORD. But as I understand your responsibilities in the
lead car, it doesn't appear that you had an opportunity to do the
scanning?
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir.
Representative FORD. Which was necessary.
Mr. LAWSON. No, sir; I would not.
Representative FORD. So you are really left up to one individual in the
lead car in the Secret Service for that purpose?
Mr. LAWSON. Yes.
Representative FORD. I raise the question whether that is adequate for
the overall purpose.
Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't want to interfere with the procedures but could
I ask a question off the record?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. McCLOY. I think you might go on the record with this. There has
been some question as to whether we are referring directly only to the
lead car or whether to all the personnel in the cavalcade. I gather,
Mr. Ford, you were referring to the personnel in the lead car as
distinguished from the other Secret Service personnel and other police
in the motorcade as a whole?
Representative FORD. That is correct. I am cognizant of the fact we
have a followup car. What are the responsibilities of those in the
followup car?
Mr. McCLOY. By followup car do you mean the President's car because
there will be Secret Service men in the President's car too?
Representative FORD. There was only one on this occasion, or two, the
driver and Mr. Kellerman. The driver was certainly preoccupied, and
as I remember Mr. Kellerman's testimony, he was so engaged he didn't
have an opportunity to do the kind of scanning that would appear to be
necessary. So whatever scanning there was done by either the lead car
or the Presidential car or the followup car primarily had to be done by
the people in the followup car. Is that a fair analysis?
Mr. LAWSON. I don't recall if you mentioned the pilot car, but they
would have had an opportunity in the pilot car to do some scanning.
Representative FORD. But there are no Secret Service people there.
Mr. LAWSON. No Secret Service people in that one.
Mr. McCLOY. There would be Secret Service men in the Vice Presidential
car, and of course there is the Secret Service car that follows the
Presidential car, all through the route there are interspersed Secret
Service men.
Mr. DULLES. It must have been the third or fourth or fifth car in the
motorcade that was right opposite the window at the time the assassin
put the rifle well out of the window and shot.
Mr. McCLOY. Why do you say that?
Mr. DULLES. The shooting took place when the President's car was
somewhere here (indicating to photograph of scene). It had made the
turn, you see. Here is the building. Now there is the window up here
roughly. He didn't shoot here. They went around the turn and were down
here. There was a barricade there. There was something there that
obstructed the view you will remember.
Mr. McCLOY. That is the sign here like this.
Mr. DULLES. It would be down that far.
Mr. McCLOY. It might have been there.
Mr. DULLES. As close as that? Whatever it was, the car that was right
opposite the window and going in this direction at that time must have
been the fourth or fifth car--the car which had the best view of the
assassination. You wouldn't be looking I shouldn't think, if you were
in a car here, you wouldn't be looking back there. You would be looking
off here and off here for protection.
I should think that car in this strange situation, where he was
shooting right down the street--isn't that correct? I don't know if you
have ever followed that up. I don't know what car it is. It is some
car along here, though, that would have been right opposite the window
at the time the shooting took place, not one of the lead cars or the
President's car.