The CHAIRMAN. What was your answer to that?
Mr. FRITZ. I did not, I got no such instructions. In fact, we
couldn't--we would have taken the precautions without the notice but we
did not get the notice, I never heard of that.
Mr. BALL. Do you recall that on Friday, November 22, Wade asked you or
did he or didn't District Attorney Wade ask you to transfer Oswald to
the county jail for security?
Mr. FRITZ. That would be on the night of the 22d?
Mr. BALL. On the night of the 22d.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he asked me if I would transfer him that night.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. FRITZ. I told him we didn't want to transfer him yet. We wanted to
talk to him some more. We talked a little bit. He didn't actually want
him transferred. He just was more or less talking about whether or not
we wanted to transfer him.
Mr. BALL. Now on Saturday Decker called you and asked you to transfer
him?
Mr. FRITZ. On Saturday did he call me and ask me to transfer him?
Mr. BALL. Yes, that would be the 23d.
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. BALL. Did Chief Curry tell you that Decker had called or anything
of that sort?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; when I was talking to Chief Curry on one of those
conversations, I don't think it is the conversation now when he told
me about the hours, I think it is another conversation, I told him, I
said, "I don't know whether we were going to transfer him or Decker was
going to transfer him," and Chief Curry said, "We are going to transfer
him, I have talked to Decker, we are going to transfer him."
Mr. BALL. When were the plans for the transfer made?
Mr. FRITZ. When were the plans made?
Mr. BALL. Yes; do you know?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't know about that. The only thing I know is what I
told you about when the chief told me about would he be ready by 10
o'clock that morning, and I told him I thought we could.
Mr. BALL. You didn't make the plans yourself?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. They were made by the chief?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; they were made by the chief.
Mr. BALL. When did the chief first tell you what the plans were?
Mr. FRITZ. That was on the 23d. He didn't tell me about all the plans,
of course, at that time because I told you when he came up to tell us
about that, when he asked when we were ready to go he told me about the
armored car, that is the first I had ever heard of that.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever tell any of the press the time that Oswald would
be moved?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't believe I did. I was interrogated by a
bunch of them as I started to leave the office on the night of the 23d.
As we started to the elevator, a group of us from my office, and some
of the FBI officers, we started to the elevator some 10 or 20 reporters
came up and said the chief said we were going to transfer him at 10
o'clock the next morning and if we were and I didn't talk to them so I
don't think I ever said much if anything to them because I know one of
them followed me almost to my parking lot, I know, asking me questions
about the transfer.
Mr. BALL. At 11:15 when they left your office, do you know whether or
not there was any broadcast over your radio as to your movements?
Mr. FRITZ. On our radio?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. I wouldn't know.
Mr. BALL. Or on any radio, were there any radio broadcasters on your
floor at that time?
Mr. FRITZ. Any of those newsmen?
Mr. BALL. Newsmen?
Mr. FRITZ. Oh, yes; they might not have been on the floor but they were
all down in the basement. You are talking about the morning of the 24th?
Mr. BALL. On the morning of the 24th when you were moving?
Mr. FRITZ. Any number of them downstairs. I don't remember whether
there were any upstairs or not. There probably was maybe a few of them
because I don't think there was any time when there wasn't a few of
them up there, but we didn't leave through that hall and go through the
elevator. We went through the mail elevator.
Mr. BALL. On the 22d and 23d, the third floor was full of newspapermen
and photographers?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; all the time, completely full.
Mr. BALL. Had they left the third floor on the 24th?
Mr. FRITZ. A lot of them had; yes, sir. A lot of them had, and were
downstairs in the basement.
Mr. BALL. How about the television cameras?
Mr. FRITZ. I noticed--television cameras, they were downstairs too.
Mr. BALL. They weren't up on the third floor?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe--there could have been one or two of them
left up there, I don't think many of them were still up there.
Mr. BALL. Most of them were downstairs?
Mr. FRITZ. Most of them were downstairs. I wouldn't say there weren't
any up there because I don't think there was any time when there wasn't
at least a few of them up there.
Mr. BALL. Now, when you went down the jail elevator and you said you
got out and went forward to see if everything was secure. What did you
mean by that?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I meant if everything, it was all right for us to go
to our car with him. We didn't want to leave the jail office with him
unless everything was all right because as long as we were in the jail
office we could put him back in the elevator and if everything wasn't
all right, I didn't want to come out with him.
Mr. BALL. And you went ahead, didn't you?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; first Lieutenant Swain and then I went out and
then the other officers followed me with the prisoner.
Mr. BALL. Was the car there you were going to get in?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had you reached the car yet?
Mr. FRITZ. I was just in the act of reaching for the door to open the
back door, I looked at that picture, and it doesn't show the exact
distance I was from the car but I couldn't have been any further than
reaching distance.
Mr. BALL. When you left, or after Ruby shot Oswald, he was taken
upstairs, wasn't he?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he was. He was first carried into the jail office,
you mean Ruby?
Mr. BALL. Ruby, when Ruby shot Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. Oswald was carried into the jail office and put on the floor
there. Ruby was brought into the jail office. Now I believe that Ruby
was brought into the jail office after Oswald, I believe Oswald was
already on the floor or behind there because I know the officers had
taken Ruby upstairs went behind me and I saw them pass behind me with
him to the jail.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Ruby?
Mr. FRITZ. Did I talk to him; no, sir; I talked to him later.
Mr. McCLOY. I wonder if at this time you would want a little recess?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am comfortable.
Mr. McCLOY. I think we kept the chief on a little bit too long this
morning.
Mr. FRITZ. If it is all right with you.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Ruby at that time?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; not at that time.
Mr. BALL. Later?
Mr. FRITZ. I talked to him later, probably an hour later. I guess I
have the exact time here if you need it.
Mr. BALL. What did Ruby say to you, do you have the exact time?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, he told me, I told him, I, of course, wanted to know
something about premeditation because I was thinking about the trial
too and I told him I wanted to ask him some questions and he said,
well, he first said, "I don't want to talk to you, I want to talk to
my lawyers," and he said, I believe he told me too that he had been
advised by a lawyer, and I asked him some other question and he said,
"Now if you will level with me and you won't make me look like a fool
in front of my lawyers I will talk to you."
I didn't ask him one way or the other, but I did ask him some questions
and he told me that he shot him, told me that he was all torn up about
the Presidential killing, that he felt terribly sorry for Mrs. Kennedy.
He didn't want to see her to have to come back to Dallas for a trial,
and a lot of other things like that.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him how he got down to the jail?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he came down that ramp from the outside. So I
told him, I said, "No, you couldn't have come down that ramp because
there would be an officer at the top and an officer at the bottom and
you couldn't come down that ramp." He said, "I am not going to talk to
you any more, I am not going to get into trouble," and he never talked
to me any more about it.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him again?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think I ever talked to him after that. I talked to
him a little while then and I don't believe I ever talked to him after
that. I asked him when he first decided to kill Oswald, and he didn't
tell me that. He told me something else, talked about something else.
Mr. BALL. What was that time, you said you could give us the time?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I can give you the time. 3:05.
Mr. BALL. What time?
Mr. FRITZ. 3:05.
Mr. BALL. 3:05 in the afternoon?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you know that Archer or Dean or Newman had talked to Ruby?
Mr. FRITZ. I didn't know that they had talked to him. I knew that some
officers had talked to him but I didn't know who they were.
Mr. BALL. Were there any reports given you by any one of these three
men, Dean----
Mr. FRITZ. They weren't given to me. Those reports were given to the
investigative team that the chief setup headed by Captain Jones and
some of the inspectors and they gave me a copy. I have copies of it.
Mr. BALL. You have copies of those reports?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. BALL. Do you know, did you know prior to the trial of Ruby that
either Dean or Archer or Newman, either one, had claimed to have talked
to Ruby about his premeditation in the killing of Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, sir, I didn't know, I wouldn't have known that. They
never told me about that. I wouldn't have known. I think that maybe the
chief had taken some report from Dean, but I didn't see that until, I
think I put it in this book a few days ago.
Mr. BALL. Well now, did you have charge of the investigation of the
Oswald killing?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were in charge of that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then all the reports would come to you?
Mr. FRITZ. Come here; yes, sir. With one exception. The reports from
all those officers in the security in the basement. You see, I had
nothing to do with setting up the security in the basement, that
was under the security division and the chief might have given that
assignment to, those are in a different book, they are in a report
made to this investigative team appointed by the chief. We have their
copies, too.
Mr. BALL. Well, but you had charge of the investigation of the homicide?
Mr. FRITZ. The homicide but I didn't have charge of the investigation
of the basement incident.
Mr. BALL. Well, the reason for my question is that there has been some
question raised as to testimony in the Ruby trial of these men, Dean,
Archer, and Newman.
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I heard that.
Mr. BALL. And they have testified to certain statements made that they
heard from Ruby afterward, and the question is whether or not these men
have reported to you that they had heard that.
Mr. FRITZ. They didn't report it to me; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or reported it in writing to their department?
Mr. FRITZ. They didn't report it to me, if they reported to anyone
I didn't get it. But I understand that Dean had made some kind of
special report to the chief but that wasn't to me.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever know a man named Roger Craig, a deputy sheriff?
Mr. FRITZ. Roger Craig, I might if I knew which one he was. Do we have
it here?
Mr. BALL. He was a witness from whom you took a statement in your
office or some of your men.
Mr. FRITZ. Some of my officers.
Mr. BALL. He is a deputy sheriff.
Mr. FRITZ. One deputy sheriff who started to talk to me but he was
telling me some things that I knew wouldn't help us and I didn't talk
to him but someone else took an affidavit from him. His story that he
was telling didn't fit with what we knew to be true.
Mr. BALL. Roger Craig stated that about 15 minutes after the shooting
he saw a man, a white man, leave the Texas State Book Depository
Building, run across a lawn, and get into a white Rambler driven by a
colored man.
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think that is true.
Mr. BALL. I am stating this. You remember the witness now?
Mr. FRITZ. I remember the witness; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did that man ever come into your office and talk to you in
the presence of Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. In the presence of Oswald?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am sure he did not. I believe that man did come
to my office in that little hallway, you know outside my office, and
I believe I stepped outside the door and talked to him for a minute
and I let someone else take an affidavit from him. We should have that
affidavit from him if it would help.
Mr. BALL. Now this man states that, has stated, that he came to your
office and Oswald was in your office, and you asked him to look at
Oswald and tell you whether or not this was the man he saw, and he
says that in your presence he identified Oswald as the man that he had
seen run across this lawn and get into the white Rambler sedan. Do you
remember that?
Mr. FRITZ. I think it was taken, I think it was one of my officers, and
I think if he saw him he looked through that glass and saw him from the
outside because I am sure of one thing that I didn't bring him in the
office with Oswald.
Mr. BALL. You are sure you didn't?
Mr. FRITZ. I am sure of that. I feel positive of that. I would remember
that I am sure.