Mr. FRITZ. Wait just one second. No, sir; that was in the jail.
Mr. BALL. Is the jail wired so that you can listen to conversations?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; it isn't. Sometimes I wish I could hear some of the
things they say but we don't.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you don't monitor conversations?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; we let them talk to anyone they want to. If they
are allowed to use the telephone, of course, they are allowed free use
of it. Sometimes they do a little better than that. Sometimes they
place a long distance call and charge it to the city.
Mr. McCLOY. When you went in, Captain Fritz, and you saw the site which
Oswald is alleged to have fired the shot from----
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see any signs of a lunch there, a chicken there?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I will tell you where that story about the chicken
comes from. At the other window above there, where people in days past,
you know had eaten their lunches, they left chicken bones and pieces
of bread, all kinds of things up and down there. That isn't where he
was at all. He was in a different window, so I don't think those things
have anything to do with it. Someone wrote a story about it in the
papers, and we have got all kinds of bad publicity from it and they
wrote in telling us how to check those chicken bones and how to get
them from the stomach and everything.
Mr. DULLES. What was Oswald's attitude toward the police and police
authority?
Mr. FRITZ. You know I didn't have trouble with him. If we would just
talk to him quietly like we are talking right now, we talked all right
until I asked him a question that meant something, every time I asked
him a question that meant something, that would produce evidence he
immediately told me he wouldn't tell me about it and he seemed to
anticipate what I was going to ask. In fact, he got so good at it
one time, I asked him if he had had any training, if he hadn't been
questioned before.
Mr. DULLES. Questioned before?
Mr. FRITZ. Questioned before, and he said that he had, he said yes, the
FBI questioned him when he came back from Russia from a long time and
they tried different methods. He said they tried the buddy boy method
and thorough method, and let me see some other method he told me and he
said, "I understand that."
Mr. DULLES. Did you ask him whether he had had any communist training
or indoctrination or anything of that kind?
Mr. FRITZ. I asked him some questions about that and I asked him where
he was in Russia. He told me he was in Russia, first I believe he told
me, first I believe he said in Moscow, and then he said he went to
Minsk, Russia, and I asked him what did you do, get some training, go
to school? I suspected he had some training in sabotage from the way
he talked and acted, and he said "no, I worked in a radio factory." He
acted like a person who was prepared for what he was doing.
Mr. DULLES. Have you any views of your own as to motive from your talks
with him? Did you get any clues as to possible motive in assassinating
the President?
Mr. FRITZ. I can only tell you what little I know now. I am sure that
we have people in Washington here that can tell far more than I can.
Mr. DULLES. Well, you saw the man and the others didn't see the man.
Mr. FRITZ. I got the impression, I got the impression that he was doing
it because of his feeling about the Castro revolution, and I think that
he felt, he had a lot of feeling about that revolution.
(At this point the Chief Justice entered the hearing room.)
Mr. FRITZ. I think that was the reason. I noticed another thing. I
noticed a little before when Walker was shot, he had come out with
some statements about Castro and about Cuba and a lot of things and if
you will remember the President had some stories a few weeks before
his death about Cuba and about Castro and some things, and I wondered
if that didn't have some bearing. I have no way of knowing that other
than just watching him and talking to him. I think it was his feeling
about his belief in being a Marxist, I think he had--he told me he had
debated in New Orleans, and that he tried to get converts to this Fair
Play for Cuba organization, so I think that was his motive. I think he
was doing it because of that.
Mr. DULLES. Did he express any animosity against anyone, the President
or the Governor or Walker or anybody?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; he did not. Not with me he didn't.
Mr. DULLES. Not with you?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir. He just, the fact he just didn't talk about them
much. He just didn't say hardly anything. When I asked him he didn't
say much about them.
Mr. McCLOY. You knew Officer Tippit?
Mr. FRITZ. I wanted to tell you one thing before I forget. One time I
asked him something about whether or not, either I asked him or someone
else in there asked him, if he thought he would be better off, if he
thought the country would be better off with the President killed and
he said, "Well, I think that the Vice President has about the same
views as the President has." He says he will probably do about the same
thing that President Kennedy will do.
Mr. DULLES. Oswald said that to you?
Mr. FRITZ. Either to me or someone, it could be one of the other
officers who asked that question while they were talking about him.
Mr. McCLOY. Of course, you knew Officer Tippit?
Mr. FRITZ. I didn't know him. I didn't know him. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. He didn't work directly under you?
Mr. FRITZ. I looked at his record and saw that the chief of the
personnel file and I looked at the personnel file and I talked to a
number of officers who did know him and they speak very highly.
Mr. DULLES. Have you ever reviewed his record since these events?
Mr. FRITZ. I didn't exactly review it but I read a good part of it and
the chief read a good part of it to me.
Mr. DULLES. The record is good?
Mr. FRITZ. The record is good. It was average, it looked better than
a lot of them do. It is all right. It had the same little things that
happen to most officers, maybe some little complaint about something
minor, nothing of any consequence.
Mr. McCLOY. So far as you know he had no connection with Ruby?
Mr. FRITZ. I am sure he did not. I think I know what you people have
probably heard. We hear all kinds of rumors down our way and I am not
trying to volunteer a lot of things here. I know you have a lot of
business to do, have you heard something about some connection between
Oswald and Ruby and Tippit, and some fourth person. I heard some story,
we didn't find any ground for it at all. We didn't find any connection
of any kind that would connect them together. I can't even find a
connection between Ruby and Oswald and I can't place them in the same
building at the same time nor place them in the same building together,
YMcA, one of them lived there and one of them was taking some kind of
an athletic course there.
Mr. McCLOY. But not at the same time?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I can't place them there at the same time; no, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Have you discovered any connection between any of your
officers and Ruby?
Mr. FRITZ. Well, I think a lot of the officers knew Ruby. I think about
two or three officers in my office knew him, and I think practically
all of the special service officers who handle the vice and the clubs
and the liquor violations, I think nearly all of them knew him and, of
course, the officer knew him who had arrested him carrying pistols a
time or two, two or three times, uniformed officer mostly. He seemed to
be well known. It seems a lot of people in town knew him. But I never
was in his place and I didn't know him. Twenty years ago I might have
been in his place.
Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz, from being with Oswald for a couple of days
what were your impressions about him? Was he afraid, scared?
Mr. FRITZ. Was he afraid?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't believe he was afraid at all. I think he
was a person who had his mind made up what to do and I think he was
like a person just dedicated to a cause. And I think he was above
average for intelligence.
I know a lot of people call him a nut all the time but he didn't talk
like a nut. He knew exactly when to quit talking. He knew the kind of
questions. I could talk to him as long as I wanted to if I just talked
about a lot of things that didn't amount to anything. But any time I
asked him a question that meant something he answered quick.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear of a lawyer in Chicago that called up and
offered to help Ruby?
Mr. FRITZ. Some lawyer from Chicago sent him a wire.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the wire?
Mr. FRITZ. I saw the wire; yes.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who the lawyer was?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't remember his name. I believe he probably
had it delivered to the jail.
Mr. BALL. To Oswald, a lawyer from Chicago offered his services to
Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes; Ruby too. But I am talking about the one to Oswald. I
don't know that I would even know his name if I heard it.
Mr. BALL. We have some pictures here from the crime laboratory as
we have marked Exhibits 712, 713, and 714. The witness has already
identified a picture of Oswald. I show you this, Captain, can you tell
me which one of these pictures on Exhibit 714 that you showed to Oswald
the day when you interrogated him, asked him it that was his picture?
Mr. FRITZ. It is the one with the two papers in his hand.
Mr. BALL. The one to the right. Did you ever show him the one to the
left?
Mr. FRITZ. I don't think so.
Mr. BALL. We offer 713, 712, and 714 as two pictures taken.
Mr. FRITZ. These are the pictures I told about a while ago.
Mr. BALL. They were taken by your crime lab?
Mr. FRITZ. Our crime lab took these pictures when I went over there
with Mr. Sorrels.
Mr. BALL. Where were they taken?
Mr. FRITZ. In the backyard of the Neely Street address. If you will
note, you will see in this picture, you notice that top right there of
this shed. Of course, this picture is taken up closer, but if you step
back further you can see about where the height comes to on that shed
right there. Not exactly in the same position.
Mr. BALL. I offered these. (Commission Exhibits Nos. 712, 713, and 714
were admitted.)
Mr. FRITZ. It shows the gate.
Mr. BALL. Indicating the location of the picture taken--this set will
indicate the pictures were all taken at the Neely Street backyard.
Mr. DULLES. You recall the date of these pictures, in April?
Mr. FRITZ. I believe they will be dated on the back of them.
Mr. DULLES. April, so the trees would be about the same.
Mr. BALL. When were the pictures taken by your crime lab?
Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure but I believe the date will be on the back of
the picture. November 29, 1963. Picture made by Officer Brown who works
in the crime lab.
Mr. BALL. Captain, I would like to ask you some more questions about
your prisoner.
Mr. FRITZ. All right, sir.
Mr. BALL. The first day that you had Oswald in custody, did you
get a notice from the FBI, any of the FBI officers that there had
been a communication from Washington suggesting that you take extra
precautions for the safety of Oswald?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; there was not.