Representative FORD. From the person who is brought up for
identification?
Mr. CURRY. Ordinarily the person who is brought up for identification
would be behind the screen, behind this silk screen. This is for the
purpose of protecting the person who is going to try to identify him
more than trying to protect the person who is being shown up because
witnesses ofttimes have a fear of facing someone that they are asked to
identify.
For this reason this screen was provided where the prisoner could not
see out, but the people can see in. It is much like a one-way glass.
Representative FORD. That was used in this case?
Mr. CURRY. No; this was not used. We just brought him in front of it.
Representative FORD. Any particular reason why he was put in front of
it?
Mr. CURRY. They asked us if we wouldn't bring him out there, they
didn't think their cameras would show through the screen. And as I
repeated, when this was brought up, I asked Mr. Wade, the district
attorney, if he saw anything wrong with this and he said "No; I don't
see anything wrong with this," so we agreed to do this.
Representative FORD. Who was in charge of the actual showup operation?
Mr. CURRY. The jail personnel would have brought him down from
downstairs and brought him into the room and then removed him.
Representative FORD. Who handled the actual process of identification
or attempted identification by various witnesses?
Mr. CURRY. Usually Captain Fritz or some of his homicide detectives are
present. I know when they were having a showup for a little lady, I
don't know her name but she was a waitress who observed the shooting of
the officer, I just--I wasn't there during the entire showup but I was
present part of the showup and Captain Fritz was asking her to observe
these people and see if she could pick out the man she saw who shot the
officer and she didn't identify Oswald at that time.
Representative FORD. Did you say the actual process that was--that took
place in these several showups was similar to or different from the
showups in other cases?
Mr. CURRY. The only one where we didn't have any particular witnesses
to show him up to, but the number of the news media had asked if they
couldn't see him and it was almost impossible for all of them to see
him up in this hallway and we decided that the best thing to do, if
we were going to let them see him at all would be to take them and
get them into a room, and then there was utter confusion after we did
that because they tried to overrun him after we got him there and we
immediately removed him and took him back upstairs.
Representative FORD. You mentioned earlier there had been some
allegations to the effect that Oswald had been badly treated.
Mr. CURRY. There was--I didn't hear this myself but someone told me, I
don't recall who it was, that some of the news media, I understood this
was broadcast over the radio and TV.
Representative FORD. Did you investigate that rumor?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. What did you find out?
Mr. CURRY. I found he had not been mistreated.
Representative FORD. You checked with all the police personnel who had
anything to do with it?
Mr. CURRY. Everyone I knew about and the only marks on him was, that
I could see there was a slight mark on his face up here, and this was
received when he was fighting the officers in that theatre, and they
had to subdue him and in the scuffle, this episode in the theatre, he
apparently received a couple of marks on his face.
But he didn't complain to me about it. I think he--one of the times he
was coming down the hall someone asked him what was the matter with
his eye and he said, "A cop hit me," I believe, or "A policeman hit me."
Representative FORD. Did you ask Oswald whether he had been mistreated?
Mr. CURRY. I don't believe I did, sir.
Representative FORD. But you talked to Oswald on one or more occasions?
Mr. CURRY. I don't know that I ever asked him any questions at all.
I was present during the interrogation, but he was very sullen and
arrogant and he didn't have much to say to anybody. Fritz, I think did
more talking to him than anybody else.
Representative FORD. But not in your presence did he object to any
treatment he received from the Dallas police force?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I would like to say for the record that we are very
strict on our officers in the treatment of prisoners, and we have a
personnel section setup that any person who complains that they have
been mistreated by the police officer, a thorough investigation is
made, and if it is determined that he has been mistreated in any way,
disciplinary action is taken, and on occasion we have, not frequently,
but on occasion where we have found that this has been true we have
dismissed personnel for mistreating a prisoner, so our personnel know
positively this is not tolerated regardless of who it is.
Mr. RANKIN. Chief, you have described a showup, and you have also
described the general practice. You have also described showups in
regard to Oswald and you said there were several of them.
Mr. CURRY. When I said several, to the best of my knowledge there were
perhaps three altogether.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes, one you were describing when the screen was not used
was not for the purpose of identification, is that right?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; unless some of the news media had come forward and
said, "We saw that man"; you see a lot of that news media, that was
present, were with the Presidential party and there is a possibility
that some of them might have said we saw this man to leave the scene.
Mr. RANKIN. So the principal reason was to allow the news media?
Mr. CURRY. The principal reason was at their request that they be
allowed to see the prisoner.
Mr. RANKIN. And he wasn't placed back of the screen at that time?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; he was not.
Mr. RANKIN. And whatever identification there would be would be under
the hope that they might have seen him?
Mr. CURRY. They might have seen him because a great number of the news
media were at the scene of the shooting or in the immediate area.
Mr. RANKIN. And that is the particular showup when you learned later
Jack Ruby was supposed to have been present?
Mr. CURRY. I was told that he was present. That someone had seen him
back in this room. He easily could have been there as far as I was
concerned because I wouldn't have known him from anyone else.
Mr. RANKIN. At the other showups, were witnesses there to try to
identify Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, there were.
Mr. RANKIN. How were those handled, do you know?
Mr. CURRY. Exactly the same manner except that he was brought in
behind the screen, and was handcuffed to some police officers or other
prisoners.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who was there to try to identify him?
Mr. CURRY. Only on one occasion. This was a little lady that was a
waitress.
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Markham?
Mr. CURRY. I believe her name was Mrs. Markham.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe whether she was able to identify him?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, I heard her tell Captain Fritz that was the man she saw
shoot the officer.
Mr. RANKIN. And that was Officer Tippit?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. What kind of a reputation did Officer Tippit have with the
police force?
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question before that. Were you present
when any members of Oswald's family, his wife, his mother, saw him or
talked with him?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I was not.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether any of your officers were?
Mr. CURRY. I understood they were brought to the third floor of the
city hall and were placed in a room, and that if any of them were
present it probably would have been Captain Fritz.
Mr. DULLES. He would know about it?
Mr. CURRY. I believe he would, yes.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what Officer Tippit's reputation was with
your police force?
Mr. CURRY. He had a reputation of being a very fine, dedicated officer.
Mr. RANKIN. How long had he been with you?
Mr. CURRY. I believe he came to work for us in 1952, after he had had
service in the paratroopers, I believe, and he had made several jumps
into Europe. He was raised in a rural community, and he was very well
thought of by the people in the community where he grew up. He was a
rather quiet, serious minded young man. He seemed to be very devoted to
his family, and he was an active church man.
Mr. RANKIN. What was his rank?
Mr. CURRY. Patrolman. He was not a real aggressive type officer. In
fact, he seemed to be just a little bit shy, if you were to meet him,
I believe, shy, retiring type, but certainly not afraid of anything. I
think in his personnel investigation it showed that during, as he was
growing up, sometimes his shyness was mistaken for perhaps fear, but
that it only took a time or two for someone to exploit this to find out
it wasn't fear. It was merely a quiet, shy-type individual.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any record in the police department of any
disciplinary action toward him?
Mr. CURRY. The only disciplinary action ever taken was he was given a
day off one time because he had missed court on two occasions.
Mr. DULLES. Missed what?
Mr. CURRY. Missed court.
Mr. RANKIN. He had been unable to testify or something?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; in city court they have to appear 1 day a week.
They are notified each week to appear but they are told on one day will
be their court day and if any cases coming up it would be that time.
And on two occasions he failed to appear. I think one time he forgot
it and I think another time he said he was tied up on a radio call or
something and didn't notify him and it is just a departmental policy if
you miss court twice you are given a day off for it.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that the penalty that was imposed?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, it was. He took it in very good graces, he didn't feel
like he was being mistreated.
Mr. RANKIN. That was the only disciplinary action against him?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; there was one other complaint in his file, where
he had stopped a lady and given her a ticket and also had given her, he
gave her two tickets, one for no operator's license, and after he had
issued the tickets she found her driver's license, and she called to
him across the street, and said something about she found her license
and he told her okay, show it in court, but she thought he was being
rather abrupt and discourteous to her, she felt like he should have
come back over and taken this ticket for driver's license and destroyed
it.
Under our rules and regulations you cannot destroy a ticket; if it is
destroyed it has to be accounted in our auditor's office and that was
the only complaint in the years on the force.
Mr. DULLES. A rumor reached me that Officer Tippit had been some way
involved in some narcotic trouble, I don't know what the foundation of
that is. Do you know anything about that at all?
Mr. CURRY. Nothing whatsoever; no, sir.
Representative FORD. You mean you know nothing about it or you checked
it out and there is no validity?
Mr. CURRY. This is the first I ever heard of it that he was involved in
any narcotics.
Representative FORD. But your records, so far as you know, would not
indicate such?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Thank you.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you, so far as you know, did Tippit know Ruby?
Mr. CURRY. I don't believe he did. I am sure he didn't. He would not be
the type I think that would even have any occasion to know him because
some of the officers that we found that did know him, either worked in
the area where he had a night club or some of the officers that worked
in the vice squad who had occasion to go in and inspect these cases
or a few officers we found they went out there for social purposes,
outside their regular duty.
Tippit, for a number of years, had been assigned out in Oak Cliff. I
don't think he had ever been assigned in an area where Jack Ruby--well
Jack Ruby did live in Oak Cliff but I am sure, to the best of my
knowledge, Tippit never had any occasion to be around Jack Ruby.
Mr. DULLES. Was Tippit at the time he was killed on a regular assigned
assignment or was he just roving in a particular area?
Mr. CURRY. On this particular day, now he had been assigned to Oak
Cliff for several months farther out than he was, but when this
incident occurred at the Texas School Book Depository, this is
customary policy in the police department if something happens on this
district and tying up several squads that the squads from the other
district automatically move in in a position where they can cover off
or something else might happen here, much the same as fire equipment
does, this is automatic.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain that further?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; say two squads were to get a call in an area, and
this area here, say they had a big fire or something, they brought two
or three squads in here from adjoining districts, then automatically
these squads out in these other areas would begin to cover off or get
in a position to where if instead of staying out here on the far side
of this district, they would perhaps move into this district right here
where they could answer here, here or over into here. This is just
automatic patrol policy.
On this particular day, some of the squads in this Oak Cliff area
had been ordered over into the Dallas area, this Texas School Book
Depository, and some of these other outlying squads then, I think we
have this on a radio log, I don't know whether you have this or not,
were 78 or 81.
Mr. BALL. Why don't you read it in the record, a definite order for
Tippit to come in there.
Mr. CURRY. Right here. This would have been at approximately 12:45,
I believe. Here is the description came out at about 12:45. The
dispatcher put out a description of attention all squads.
Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by description?
Mr. CURRY. Of a suspect.
Mr. DULLES. I see, description of Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. What are you reading from, Chief?
Mr. CURRY. This is radio log record from the Dallas Police Department,
as recorded on November 22.
Mr. RANKIN. Is that from Commission Document 728?
Mr. DULLES. I want to correct my question, it was a man seen leaving?
Mr. CURRY. It was a description of a suspect.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't know it was Oswald?
Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what the rest of that notation is?
Mr. CURRY. Dispatcher put out this description, "attention all squads
Elm and Houston, unknown white male person approximately 30, slender
build, height 5 feet 10, 160 pounds, reported to be armed with what is
believed to be a .30-caliber rifle. Attention all squads, the suspect
is believed to be white male 30, 5 feet 10 inches, slender build,
armed with what is thought to be a .30-30 rifle, no further description
at this time."
This was at 12:45 p.m.
Mr. RANKIN. What channel are you talking about?
Mr. CURRY. Channel 1.
Mr. RANKIN. You had more than one channel?
Mr. CURRY. Two channels.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. CURRY. Someone came in, they didn't identify themselves and came in
and said what are they wanted for, and they said signal 19 which is a
shooting under our code involving the President.
Representative FORD. Did Tippit's motorcycle have channel 1?
Mr. CURRY. He was in a squad car and most of our squad cars have
channel 1 and 2, but they stay on channel 1 unless they are instructed
to switch over to channel 2.
Mr. DULLES. He did have channel 1?
Mr. CURRY. Yes. Now within the minute of broadcasting, a little further
on, squads 102 and 233 checked out at Elm and Houston, 81 came in the
district squad, that was an Oak Cliff squad. He said "I will be going
north from Industrial on Corinth." That means he was leaving the Oak
Cliff section coming toward the downtown section of Dallas.
Representative FORD. By he who do you mean?
Mr. CURRY. The man assigned to district 81, and I don't have his name
but it would be on our records.
Then Tippit was working 78 and he along with district 87, which is
further out in Oak Cliff, at about 12:45, between 12:45 and 12:46, the
dispatcher sent out this message to him, "87-78 moving into central Oak
Cliff area."
Now the central Oak Cliff area would have been the area nearby where
this shooting occurred.
Representative FORD. Shooting of Tippit?
Mr. CURRY. Shooting of Tippit occurred. I am sure--a little later on
here, he says "you are in Oak Cliff area, are you not," and he said "at
Lancaster and 8th", that would be just several blocks from where this
shooting then occurred.
Mr. McCLOY. This is Tippit's reply going in?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. The next sentence also says something, Chief?
Mr. CURRY. And the dispatcher told him, "You will be at large for any
emergency that comes in." In other words, he was one of the remaining
squads in Oak Cliff that was in service.
Mr. DULLES. What does that mean, scout around the area?
Mr. CURRY. Anywhere in that central area, Oak Cliff.
Mr. McCLOY. Did he reply to that?
Mr. CURRY. He said "10-4".
Mr. RANKIN. What does that mean?
Mr. CURRY. It means message received.
Mr. RANKIN. Doesn't that mean approval?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. These are transcriptions of communications back
and forth?
Mr. CURRY. That is recorded on our radio there in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. Is there a tape recorder on that?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; and it is kept for a permanent record.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any other shooting in this particular area where
Officer Tippit was that morning, do you know?
Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. DULLES. Is that 10-4 message the last message you received from
Tippit?
Mr. CURRY. As far as I know that is the last word we heard from him.
Mr. McCLOY. Was this description of the suspect the first description
that went out?
Mr. CURRY. As far as I know, it is.
Mr. DULLES. That was at 12:45, as I recall.
Mr. CURRY. Approximately, yes.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn of Officer Tippit's murder?
Mr. CURRY. While I was out at Parkland Hospital. That is after we had
taken the President there and the Governor, and we were waiting there.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, on these showups for Lee Oswald, did you have any
special security arrangements about bringing him in among all this
crowd of news people?
Mr. CURRY. We had some police officers bringing him down. I was there,
Captain Fritz went, I don't believe he went inside the door. He went to
the door, I believe. There were several officers there, yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was this more than usual?
Mr. CURRY. Perhaps so; yes. Ordinarily there would have been maybe a
jailer and a jail guard with the prisoner. And there would have been
the detective out with the witnesses.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you disturbed about the security for Lee Oswald with
all this crowd?
Mr. CURRY. Not at that time. I really didn't suspect any trouble from
the news media. I thought they were there doing a professional job of
reporting the news and I had no reason to be concerned about the news
media.
Mr. RANKIN. Did it concern you that there were so many additional
people to try to keep track of as well as----
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; it did.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about it?
Mr. CURRY. I didn't do anything about it but I was concerned about it.
I was thinking that we were going to have to, in the event we have had
an incident like this occur again, that we would have to make some
different arrangements for the press. We couldn't, when I say the
press, the news media, we couldn't have the city hall overrun like this.
Mr. RANKIN. Did it occur to you to do anything about stopping it right
then?
Mr. CURRY. No. I didn't discuss it with any of my staff that we should
clear all these people out of here and get them outside the city hall.
Mr. RANKIN. You gave no consideration to that kind of approach?
Mr. CURRY. Not at the time.
Mr. RANKIN. Now after the interrogation of Oswald, did you make some
decision about moving him?
Mr. CURRY. Not at that particular time. It is customary after we file
on a person that he be removed from the city hall.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by file on a person?
Mr. CURRY. File a case against him and that is necessary to go to the
district attorney's office usually, and in this case the district
attorney was there and we filed it at the city hall because the
district attorney was with us.
Mr. RANKIN. A criminal complaint?
Mr. CURRY. A criminal complaint. After we file this complaint it is
customary for the prisoner to be transferred from the city to the
county jail and to remain in custody until he makes bond or is brought
to trial.
Mr. RANKIN. That is a regular practice?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. These transfers are usually made by the sheriff's
office, sometime during the morning.
Mr. RANKIN. By the sheriff's office you mean it is the sheriff's
responsibility?
Mr. CURRY. Routine transfers are made. It is not a hard and fast
custom. Many times we will take the prisoner to the sheriff.
Mr. RANKIN. Who decides which way you will do it?
Mr. CURRY. It is left up to the bureau commander.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by the bureau commander?
Mr. CURRY. That is handling the case.
Mr. RANKIN. Who would that be in this case?
Mr. CURRY. In this case it would have been Captain Fritz.
Mr. RANKIN. And he decides then in all cases of this type whether
or not the police will take him across to the sheriff's jail or the
sheriff will come and get him?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; ordinarily it wouldn't even come to my attention
how it was handled.
Mr. RANKIN. Did it come to your attention this time?
Mr. CURRY. It did this time. I had asked, it seemed to me like it was
on Saturday after he had been filed on late or early Friday morning,
the news media many times had asked me when are you going to transfer
him and I said, "I don't know."