Mr. McCLOY. Just before that, how far before November 22 was that route
decided on?
Mr. CURRY. Approximately 2 days or so, I believe. That is in this
chronological record.
Mr. DULLES. When was this route published?
Mr. McCLOY. That route was published.
Mr. CURRY. It was published perhaps 2 days before, a day or two before.
Mr. RANKIN. Is the Elm Street route a shorter route than to go by
Industrial Boulevard?
Mr. CURRY. It's a more scenic route. The Stemmons Expressway was and
it was easier to travel, traffic is easier to control on it, it is
a 10-lane highway, and the Industrial Highway is heavily traveled
by commercial vehicles and goes through a commercial section of the
industrial area. And there was a more scenic route and traffic was
more--a freer flow of traffic anyway.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you involved in the discussion about the choice of
route?
Mr. CURRY. Not particularly. Chief Batchelor, my assistant chief, and
Chief Lunday. I discussed this some with the Secret Service Agent
Sorrels, and Lawson in a staff meeting at city hall.
Mr. RANKIN. What was that discussion?
Mr. CURRY. Well, we, when I say we, I mean my staff and I, we told them
what we thought would be the most direct route.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say that would have been?
Mr. CURRY. It would have been to come into Lemmon Avenue, to Central
Expressway if they were coming through town and over that route.
Now, if they were going directly to the Trade Mart it would have been
to come in Lemmon to Inwood Road and down Inwood to Hines, and Hines
to Industrial and Industrial into--but this would not have taken them
through the downtown area.
Mr. RANKIN. Then if they were going to go through the downtown area
what did you say about the route that should be taken for that?
Mr. CURRY. This was probably the most direct route that they chose
except they could have come in what we term the Central Expressway to
Main Street, and then west on Main Street right down the route that was
taken.
They chose rather to come in on Lemmon Avenue to Turtle Creek, and
here again this is a more scenic route and more people would have
an opportunity to see the motorcade. And followed Turtle Creek into
Cedar Springs, to Harwood and south on Harwood to Main Street, west on
Main to Houston, north on Houston to Elm and west on Elm to Stemmons
Expressway.
Mr. RANKIN. Have you described the cars in the motorcade? Their
positions?
Mr. CURRY. I have them listed here, I couldn't tell you other than the
front part of the motorcade but they are in this report.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Tell us the front part that you recall.
Mr. CURRY. I had Deputy Chief Lumpkin, and he had two Secret Service
men with him, I believe, out of Washington, and a Colonel Wiedemeyer
who is the East Texas Section Commander of the Army Reserve in the
area, he was with him. They were out about, they were supposed to stay
about a quarter of a mile ahead of us and I was in the lead car.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was with you?
Mr. CURRY. Inspector, not inspector, but Sheriff Bill Decker, Sorrels
of the Secret Service, and Mr. Lawson, I believe he was out of the
Washington office of the Secret Service. And immediately behind us then
was the President's car.
Mr. RANKIN. You were driving your car?
Mr. CURRY. I was driving my car.
Mr. RANKIN. You had radio communication in that?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I had radio communication with my motorcycle officers,
with my downtown office, and Secret Service had a portable radio that
they had radio contact with their people.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Now, what was in the next car.
Mr. CURRY. The President's party was in that car. Then following him
was the Secret Service vehicle and then I understand was the Vice
President's car, and then behind him was a Secret Service car. And then
they had cars lined up as listed in this report here, how they were
lined up after that.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, after you turned the corner off of Main going onto
Houston, will you describe what happened as you recall it?
Mr. CURRY. Nothing unusual occurred. We were, I would say traveling
perhaps 10 miles an hour, would be the ordinary speed to make a turn,
and probably was making that speed after we made a turn from north,
going north on Houston to west on Elm Street, and----
Mr. RANKIN. Did you slow down for the turn onto Elm?
Mr. CURRY. Perhaps just a little. I would say we were probably going
8 to 10 miles an hour. And as we were moving downward the triple
underpass which is about an ordinary block we were beginning to pick up
a little speed.
Mr. RANKIN. How much of a descent is there between where the Depository
Building is and the place in the underpass?
Mr. CURRY. It is a pretty good little drop. Within the space of a block
it drops down enough to go under an underpass.
Mr. RANKIN. It would be more than the height of a car?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; two heights.
Mr. RANKIN. Two heights.
Mr. CURRY. I think it is a 13- or 14-foot clearance.
Mr. RANKIN. Trucks could get under that?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened?
Mr. CURRY. Then we heard this report.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, how far along from the corner of Elm and Houston were
you at the time of that?
Mr. CURRY. I think we were perhaps a couple of hundred feet or so.
Mr. RANKIN. How fast were you going then?
Mr. CURRY. I think we were going between 10 or 12 miles an hour, maybe
up to 15 miles an hour.
Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened?
Mr. CURRY. We heard this report, and then all of the tension that
followed I have told you.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. What was the distance between your car and the President's
car approximately?
Mr. CURRY. Mr. Dulles, I believe to the best of my knowledge it would
have been 100, 125 feet.
Mr. DULLES. Between your car and the President's car?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, we stayed pretty close to them. In the planning of
this motorcade, we had had more motorcycles lined up to be with the
President's car, but the Secret Service didn't want that many.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you why?
Mr. CURRY. We actually had two on each side but we wanted four on each
side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the
motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did.
Mr. RANKIN. How many motorcycles did you have?
Mr. CURRY. I think we had four on each side of him.
Mr. RANKIN. How many did you want to have?
Mr. CURRY. We actually had two on each side side but we wanted four on
each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the
motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did.
Mr. RANKIN. So that you in fact only had two on each side of his car?
Mr. CURRY. Two on each side and they asked them to remain at the rear
fender so if the crowd moved in on him they could move in to protect
him from the crowd.
Mr. RANKIN. Who asked him to stay at the rear fender?
Mr. CURRY. I believe Mr. Lawson.
Mr. RANKIN. The Secret Service man?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. Also we had planned to have Captain Fritz and some
of his homicide detectives immediately following the President's car
which we have in the past, we have always done this.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, would that be between the President's car and the
Secret Service?
Mr. CURRY. And the Secret Service. We have in past done this. We have
been immediately behind the President's car.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you propose that to someone?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Who did you propose it to?
Mr. CURRY. To Mr. Lawson and Mr. Sellers.
Mr. RANKIN. What did they say about that?
Mr. CURRY. They didn't want it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you why?
Mr. CURRY. They said the Secret Service would be there.
Mr. RANKIN. And then?
Mr. CURRY. They said we can put this vehicle in between Captain Fritz
and his detectives immediately at the end of the motorcade. They said,
"No, we want a white or marked car there bringing up the rear," so
Fritz and his men were not in the motorcade.
Mr. DULLES. What do you mean in the past when there have been previous
Presidents visiting Dallas or other dignitaries?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; that is right; other dignitaries. Yes; our thinking
along this was that in the past there have been this. Captain Fritz,
he is a very experienced homicide man so are his detectives. They know
the city very well. They have been there very, Captain Fritz to my
knowledge, over 40 years.
It is customary that they in trying to protect a person if they are
in the immediate vicinity, and Captain Fritz told me later, he said,
"I believe that had we been there we might possibly have got that man
before he got out of that building or we would have maybe had the
opportunity of firing at him while he was still firing" because they
were equipped, would have been equipped with high-powered rifles and
machineguns, submachine guns.
Representative FORD. Where were they instead of being at the motorcade.
Mr. CURRY. Actually they were not in the motorcade at all. They
followed up the motorcade.
Representative FORD. Were they in a car following up the motorcade?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they were in a car.
Representative FORD. How far away would they have been?
Mr. CURRY. I think they would have been at the rear, I believe.
Representative FORD. Captain Fritz is going to be here later.
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Representative FORD. And fill in what he did at that time?
Mr. RANKIN. Yes.
Mr. CURRY. But we tried to do what the Secret Service asked us to do,
and we didn't try to override them because we didn't feel it was our
responsibility, that it was their responsibility to tell us what they
wanted and we would try to provide it.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you refuse to do anything that they asked you to do?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not to my knowledge we don't--we didn't refuse them
to do anything.
Mr. DULLES. You considered them to be the boss in this particular
situation?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; the Secret Service; yes, sir.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know or can you tell us approximately where the
President's car was at the time of the first shot that you heard?
Mr. CURRY. To the best of my knowledge, I would say it was
approximately halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which
would be, I would say probably 125-150 feet west of Houston Street.
Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the approximate location of where it was
when you heard the second shot?
Mr. CURRY. Well, it would have been just a few feet further because
these shots were in fairly rapid succession.
Mr. RANKIN. How many feet do you mean?
Mr. CURRY. I would say perhaps, and this is just an estimate on my
part, perhaps 25 or 30 feet further along.
Mr. RANKIN. Then at the time of the third shot?
Mr. CURRY. A few feet further, perhaps 15-20 feet further.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have an opinion as to the time that expired between
the first shot and the third shot?
Mr. CURRY. This is just an opinion on my part but I would think perhaps
5 or 6 seconds.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you hear any more than three shots?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. RANKIN. Are you sure of that?
Mr. CURRY. I am positive of that. I heard three shots. I will never
forget it.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you have something, Mr. McCloy?
Mr. McCLOY. I was going to ask you, chief, as you were approaching the
underpass you were looking toward the underpass presumably?
Mr. CURRY. That is right.
Mr. McCLOY. Was the underpass bare of people or were there people on it?
Mr. CURRY. No; I could see some people on each side but not immediately
over, but there were some people up in the railroad yard. I also could
see an officer up there. I don't know who the officer was.
Mr. McCLOY. You could recognize an officer on the top of the underpass?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; their instructions had been to place officers on every
overpass and in every underpass.
Mr. McCLOY. How close were you then to the underpass when you first
heard that shot?
Mr. CURRY. Oh, perhaps 150 feet or 100 feet or so.
Mr. McCLOY. So you are convinced that the shot could not come from the
overpass?
Mr. CURRY. I don't believe it did; no, sir.