Mr. RANKIN. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Representative FORD. Back on the record.
Are you familiar with any written report, Chief, on what transpired
during the search of the building?
Mr. CURRY. Only what Deputy Chief Lumpkin in his report here in a
chronological report that we made, and you have this, as best we could,
after this occurred, the deputy chiefs and myself all sat down together
went over this from the time we received notice that the President
would visit Dallas until the shooting of Oswald, and step by step we
tried to go through this as to what we did, and this is what we call a
chronological report.
Representative FORD. If there is a report in anybody's files in the
Dallas Police department on what transpired during this investigation
of the building, there would be no reason why that report couldn't be
made available?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; if we have one it certainly would be made available.
Representative FORD. Will you check the files of the department and
if there is a report available will you submit it to the Commission,
please?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I was trying to.
Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, I think that your chronological report does
not purport to go into the detail of how the search was made and so
forth.
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; it just states in here how Chief Lumpkin, how he
formed the search and it tells something about while he was there.
Mr. McCLOY. The chronological report part of our record yet?
Mr. BELIN. We have a chronological report, yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Is this the same one as the Chief is looking at?
Mr. RANKIN. We will check that.
Mr. DULLES. It is not yet an exhibit, is it?
Mr. RANKIN. No; we have, and we were discussing yesterday, a number of
items in the form of affidavits and other evidence that we will have
to introduce into the record of the Commission before we get through
which has been examined by the staff and in some cases called to the
Commission's attention but is not formally a matter of record and we
will have to complete that before we can complete our report.
Mr. McCLOY. Is that the same chronological report that the Chief has?
Mr. CURRY. If it isn't I can leave you these copies but they were
submitted to Attorney General Carr, two copies. This is what is in
this report. "Upon arrival,"--this is Chief Lumpkin--"Upon arrival
at the Texas School Book Depository we found Inspector Sawyer was in
front of the building and with the assistance of other officers was
in the process of detaining anyone or everyone who had any knowledge
whatsoever of the shooting. This was discussed with Sawyer. We decided
that we would get all persons in that category away from the crowd by
sending them to Sheriff Decker's office"--which is about a half block
from here--"at Main and Houston to be held for further interrogation.
Homicide Detective Turner was sent to the sheriff's office to represent
the homicide bureau of our department and interrogating these
witnesses."
Mr. DULLES. That is where the sheriff's office was?
Mr. CURRY. Main and Houston, it runs.
"Detective Senkel was released back to Captain Fritz to assist in
the investigation. He had come down. Sawyer had placed guards on the
building to prevent anyone from going or coming. Sawyer organized
a detail to check all persons and automobiles on the parking lot
surrounding the Texas School Book Depository Building, taking their
names, telephone numbers, addresses, places of employment, and later on
in the afternoon those vehicles that were not taken out were checked by
license number. Several of the U.S. Alcohol Tax units assisted in the
search.
"At that time Lumpkin entered the building and instructed that it be
completely sealed off and that no one be allowed to leave or enter."
This probably was some, I would say, some 30 or 40 minutes after the
original shots were fired. He had gone on to Parkland Hospital to me
and I told him there to return to assist in the handling of this matter.
Mr. McCLOY. In your judgment is that the first sealing off of the
building that took place?
Mr. CURRY. No; I think Inspector Sawyer, when he arrived he took some
steps to seal off the building.
Mr. RANKIN. You have already testified about Inspector Sawyer and you
said you thought he was about 10 or 12 blocks away.
Mr. CURRY. I believe so. I believe he was about at Main and Akard
Streets which would be about 10 blocks away when he heard of this
incident occurring and he immediately went down there.
Mr. DULLES. And the first order to seal off was given some 10 minutes,
I think you testified, in that neighborhood?
Mr. CURRY. To the best of my knowledge.
Mr. DULLES. After the assassination?
Mr. CURRY. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. You don't know just what he did about sealing the building,
did you?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't. I imagine he placed men on the front and
back doors and asked them not to let anyone come or go without finding
out who they were.
Mr. DULLES. Who would know that fact as to when that order was given,
that would be Sawyer?
Mr. RANKIN. Officer Sawyer would be the one who would really know that
fact?
Mr. CURRY. I believe so.
Mr. RANKIN. And whatever he would say about it you think would be
correct?
Mr. CURRY. I do. Because we already have a deposition from him
that tells about the sealing of the building, and it was not done
immediately when he came.
Representative FORD. Would it be appropriate at this time to put that
deposition in the record at this point?
Mr. RANKIN. I wonder if it would be satisfactory to the Commission, in
view of the inquiry by Commissioner Ford, if we would, the staff would,
tender at this point the portion of the deposition that relates to how
the building was sealed, and then have a reference to this point in the
place where it is offered in evidence in regular course.
Representative FORD. That would be satisfactory to me as far as the
particular point we are discussing at the moment.
Mr. RANKIN. We will do that then.
Now, Chief, would you tell us the next thing that you know of that
happened about the search for the assassin, after the search of the
depository building that you described?
Mr. CURRY. The next thing I can tell you about, I remained out, as I
say, at Love Field until the planes departed. I went back to the office.
Mr. DULLES. At about what time would you place that?
Mr. CURRY. I believe it was about 4 o'clock I believe when I returned
to the office.
Mr. DULLES. It was 4 o'clock when you returned to the office from Love
Field?
Mr. CURRY. I believe so, I am not positive.
When I arrived they were in the process of, Captain Fritz and his men,
were in the process of investigating this murder of Tippit and also the
assassination of the President.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make an inquiry in regard to the progress?
Mr. CURRY. I think I did. I asked him how he was coming along and he
said they were making good progress.
Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened after that?
Mr. CURRY. They had had a couple of showups with Oswald so witnesses
could attempt to identify him.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether they had gone out to Beckley Street to
the place where he had stayed?
Mr. CURRY. I understood they had and I understood they went back the
next day.
Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by a showup?
Mr. CURRY. Well, it is customary when you have suspects in a crime
where you have witnesses, that they be taken into a room and allowed,
the witnesses, to observe them in the presence of other people.
Mr. RANKIN. You have a room for this purpose?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we do.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe briefly what that room is like?
Mr. CURRY. It is a police assemblyroom where we hold our regular
rollcalls. They have a stage whereby prisoners are brought up on this
stage.
Mr. RANKIN. How large is the room?
Mr. CURRY. The room, I would say, is perhaps 50 feet long and 20 feet
wide.
Mr. RANKIN. Who was allowed in the room at the time of this showup?
Mr. CURRY. Presumably only the news media and police officers. I have
been told that Jack Ruby was seen in this showuproom also.
Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day was that?
Mr. CURRY. As I recall, this was fairly late Friday night, I believe.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who was there to try to identify Lee Oswald?
Mr. CURRY. No, I don't. The news media, a number of them, had continued
to say, "Let us see him. What are you doing to him? How does he look?"
I think one broadcaster that I had heard or someone had told me about,
said that Lee Harvey Oswald is in custody of the police department, and
that something about he looked all right when he went in there, they
wouldn't guarantee how he would look after he had been in custody of
the Dallas police for a couple of hours, which intimated to me that
when I heard this that they thought we were mistreating the prisoner.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about that?
Mr. CURRY. I offered then at that time--they wanted to see him and they
wanted to know why they couldn't see him and I said we had no objection
to anybody seeing him.
And when he was being moved down the hall to go back up in the jail
they would crowd on him and we just had to surround him by officers to
get to take him to the jail elevator to take him back upstairs, to let
him rest from the interrogation.
Mr. RANKIN. And this showup, how many people attended?
Mr. CURRY. I would think perhaps 75 people. I am just making an
estimate. I told them if they would not try to overrun the prisoner and
not try to interrogate him we would bring him to the showup room. There
was--this, thinking also that these newspaper people had been all over
Love Field, and had been down at the assassination scene, and we didn't
know but what some of them might recognize him as being present, they
might have seen him around some of these places.
Now, Mr. Wade, the district attorney, was present, at this time and his
assistant was present, and as I recall, I asked Mr. Wade, I said, "Do
you think this will be all right?" And he said, "I don't see anything
wrong with it."
Mr. RANKIN. Did you find out where Jack Ruby was during this showup?
Mr. CURRY. I didn't know Jack Ruby. Actually the first time I saw Jack
Ruby to know Jack Ruby was in a bond hearing or I believe it was a bond
hearing, and I recognized him sitting at counsel's table.
The impression has been given that a great many of the Dallas Police
Department knew Jack Ruby.
Mr. RANKIN. What is the fact in that regard?
Mr. CURRY. The fact of that as far as I know there are a very small
percentage of the Dallas Police Department that knows Jack Ruby.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you make an inquiry to find out?
Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did, yes, sir. And so far as I know most of the men
who knew Jack Ruby are men who were assigned to the vice squad of the
police department or who had worked the radio patrol district where he
had places and in the course----
Mr. RANKIN. How many men would that be?
Mr. CURRY. I am guessing, perhaps 25 men. This is merely a guess on my
part.
Mr. RANKIN. How large is your police force?
Mr. CURRY. Approximately 1,200. I would say 1,175 people. I would say
less, I believe less than 50 people knew him. From what I have found
out since then that he is the type that if he saw a policeman, or he
came to his place of business he would probably run up and make himself
acquainted with him.
I also have learned since this time he tried to ingratiate himself with
any of the news media or any of the reporters who had anything to do,
he was always constantly trying to get publicity for his clubs or for
himself.
Mr. RANKIN. Now, at this showup, is there some screen between the
person in custody?
Mr. CURRY. There is a time--there wasn't at this time.
Mr. RANKIN. Why not?
Mr. CURRY. No particular reason. They just, a lot of the news media say
they didn't think they could see him up there or couldn't get pictures
of him up there and we brought him in there in front of the screen
and kept him there as I recall only about 4 or 5 minutes and shoving
up close to him and taking shots of him and took him upstairs and I
believe the district attorney and his assistant stayed down and perhaps
talked to the news media for several minutes.
But we took Harvey Oswald back upstairs and I think I went back to my
office.
Mr. DULLES. This was the evening of Friday, was it not?
Mr. CURRY. I believe so, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did you say Ruby was present that evening?
Mr. CURRY. I have understood he was. But to my own knowledge, I
wouldn't have known him because I didn't know him.
Mr. McCLOY. You said you first saw Ruby when?
Mr. CURRY. In a trial. I believe it was for a bond hearing where they
were attempting to get bond for him. And I saw him sitting at a counsel
table and recognized him from pictures I had seen of him in the paper.
Mr. DULLES. This is some time before the assassination?
Mr. McCLOY. This is the trial incident to the trial of Ruby, as I
understand it?
Mr. DULLES. You had not seen him before?
Mr. CURRY. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. It was a bond hearing incident to the trial?
Mr. CURRY. If I had seen him I wouldn't have known him.
Mr. McCLOY. I don't want to again interrupt but I don't know whether
we have passed by all of the questions you wanted to ask the chief in
regard to the motorcade and the time of the assassination.
I thought maybe we might ask him whether or what was his estimate of
the speed of the motorcade, for example.
Mr. RANKIN. We haven't covered that period because of the way we
started, and I think we could go back, Chief, if you will, to, say, at
the point the motorcade left Main Street and started down Houston, and
then down Elm up to the time of the shots.
Will you describe that, where you and what the motorcade consisted of?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I was--there was a pilot car ahead of us with
Deputy Chief Lumpkin that was perhaps two or three blocks ahead of us
and had been preceding us all the way from Love Field to see that the
route was open and reporting back by radio to us, and this was for the
purpose, if we had any wrecks or congestion to where it looked like
the motorcade could be stopped that we could change our routes and get
around them and also to let us know how the crowd was.
He had been preceding us all this way. There has been some question as
to why this motorcade would not proceed on down Main Street.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain that to the Commission?
Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I can. I will make another diagram here, if you
wish me to.
Mr. RANKIN. Mr. McCloy asked about whether the chronological report
that Chief Curry was examining during part of his testimony was
available to the Commission. We have now searched the Commission files
and we find that a copy of that exact report has been available to the
Commission and we have it here. It is a Commission document----
Mr. REDLICH. It is in Commission Document 81.1.
Representative FORD. Will this report be made a part of the record?
Mr. RANKIN. We haven't decided that question but we will examine it and
report to the Commission later if it is not made a part of the record,
why we recommend that it not be. It may very well be amongst the
documents that would be made part of the record in regular course when
we examine all of the material for that purpose. Is that a satisfactory
handling of it?
Representative FORD. I think it is. I haven't had an opportunity to
examine it. But if it is a part of the record, I suspect it ought to
be made a part at this point since it has been referred to by the
testimony of the chief. But it is something that could be discussed
later, and if it should be, it could be put into the record at this
point.
Mr. RANKIN. I would like to ask leave of the Chairman then to examine
it with greater care after the testimony of the chief is taken and be
able to make it a part of the record at this point unless I report back
to the Commission that for some reason it would not be desirable.
Mr. DULLES. That would be we would proceed in regard to this
chronological report we would proceed in the same way as we have
suggested we would with regard to the other depositions that were taken
in Dallas.
Mr. RANKIN. Except my offer before, Mr. Chairman, was that the portion
of the deposition that would relate to the matters described, that is
the sealing of the building, would, in fact, be incorporated into this
record at that point. And that the balance of it would be offered at
some later date as a part of the record of the Commission.
Here I wanted to reserve the question as to whether it should be a part
of the record because of my desire first to examine it in detail and
see if there is any reason why it should not and then report back to
the Commission.
Mr. DULLES. You will report back to the Commission. It will not be
excluded unless you so report to the Commission.
Mr. RANKIN. That is right.
Mr. DULLES. And the reason therefor?
Mr. CURRY. This sketch.
Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that sketch you have just made Exhibit 702
please, and 703?
(Commission Exhibits Nos. 702 and 703 were marked for identification.)
Mr. CURRY. In the diagram, 702, Exhibit 702, the motorcade was going
west on Main Street, there is a triple underpass there. There are three
streets and they converge into one wide street down through a triple
underpass, what we call a triple underpass.
Mr. RANKIN. Where you are talking about the underpass is that underpass
on Main Street?
Mr. CURRY. It is just west of Houston Street and runs parallel
with Houston Street. And Main Street--now Houston Street runs in a
north-south direction, Main Street, Elm Street, and Commerce Street
the three principal streets that empty into this triple underpass are
east-west, Elm Street is a one-way street west, Commerce is one-way
east, Main Street is a two-way street going east and west. We had----
Mr. RANKIN. You were going to explain why you couldn't continue right
down Main.
Mr. CURRY. We would--we left the parade route up to the host committee.
They chose the route, asking that we go down Main Street, and then
we would go on to what is known as the triple, through the triple
underpass onto Stemmons Expressway. It was necessary to get on this
expressway to get to the Trade Mart, the building where the dinner or
luncheon would be held.
But had we proceeded on down Main Street, we could not have gotten
onto Stemmons Expressway unless we had had public works to come in and
remove some curbing and build some barricades over it.
So, in talking with the Secret Service people they suggested we come
to Main Street to Elm Street, turn one block north and turn back west
and go through the triple underpass on the Elm Street side and at this
place Elm Street is two-way.
So that was the reason that it was necessary to take this motorcade one
block north, and then turn west again in order that we could get on
the triple, through the triple underpass onto the Stemmons Expressway
without coming down and removing some curbing or building over the
curbing and disturbing the regular flow of traffic.
Mr. RANKIN. Was there any consideration given prior to establishing the
parade route to removing this curbing and going----
Mr. CURRY. No, sir; nothing was said about it at all. In fact, when
they were choosing the routes for this parade, we left it entirely up
to the host committee and to the Secret Service.
They asked us what we thought about certain routes. We told them what
we thought would be the most direct routes, and they chose to come
through the downtown area, I think for the purpose they wanted the
President to see as much of the people as possible and wanted the
people to have an opportunity to see him.
Mr. RANKIN. Going to the Trade Mart building would be assumed that you
would go by the Texas Depository Building?
Mr. CURRY. If we went on Stemmons Expressway and that is the way
they wanted to go. The only other way we could have gone. We could
have continued down Main Street passed through the underpass about a
block past there to Industrial Boulevard and then we would have gone
Industrial Boulevard and made an entrance from the Trade Mart, from the
north side of the Trade Mart there. But it was decided with the Secret
Service people that we would go Main to Houston, Houston to Elm, Elm
through to triple underpass onto the expressway and the expressway to
the Trade Mart where they would come off and had parking facilities
reserved and had a security setup.