Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one more question there, how deep was the wound
of entry, could you tell at all?
Dr. SHAW. Mr. Dulles, I didn't examine the wound of the thigh so I
can't testify as to that. Dr. Gregory, I think, was there at the time
that the debris was carried out and he may have more knowledge than I
have.
Mr. DULLES. We will hear Dr. Gregory later?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; he is scheduled to testify as soon as Dr. Shaw
concludes.
Dr. Shaw, I now show you Commission Exhibit 399 which has heretofore
been identified as being a virtually whole bullet weighing 158 grains.
May I say for the record, that in the depositions which have been taken
in Parkland Hospital, that we have ascertained, and those depositions
are part of the overall record, that is the bullet which came from the
stretcher of Governor Connally.
First, Dr. Shaw, have you had a chance to examine that bullet earlier
today?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I examined it this morning.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible that the bullet which went through the
Governor's chest could have emerged being as fully intact as that
bullet is?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; I believe it is possible because of the fact that the
bullet struck the fifth rib at a very acute angle and struck a portion
of the rib which would not offer a great amount of resistance.
Mr. SPECTER. Does that bullet appear to you to have any of its metal
flaked off?
Dr. SHAW. I have been told that the one point on the nose of this
bullet that is deformed was cut off for purposes of examination.
With that information, I would have to say that this bullet has lost
literally none of its substance.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the wound on the thigh, could that bullet have
gone into the Governor's thigh without causing any more damage than
appears on the face of that bullet?
Dr. SHAW. If it was a spent bullet; yes. As far as the bullet is
concerned it could have caused the Governor's thigh wound as a spent
missile.
Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say it is a spent missile, would you elaborate
on what your thinking is on that issue?
Dr. SHAW. Only from what I have been told by Dr. Shires and Dr.
Gregory, that the depth of the wound was only into the subcutaneous
tissue, not actually into the muscle of the leg, so it meant that
missile had penetrated for a very short period. Am I quoting you
correctly, Dr. Gregory?
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show Dr. Gregory is present during this
testimony and----
Dr. GREGORY. I will say yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And indicates in the affirmative. Do you have sufficient
knowledge of the wound of the wrist to render an opinion as to whether
that bullet could have gone through Governor Connally's wrist and
emerged being as much intact as it is?
Dr. SHAW. I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, assume if you will certain facts to be true
in hypothetical form, that is, that the President was struck in the
upper portion of the back or lower portion of the neck with a 6.5-mm.
missile passing between the strap muscles of the President's neck,
proceeding through a facia channel striking no bones, not violating
the pleural cavity, and emerging through the anterior third of the
neck, with the missile having been fired from a weapon having a muzzle
velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the muzzle being
approximately 100 to 250 feet from the President's body; that the
missile was a copper jacketed bullet. Would it be possible for that
bullet to have then proceeded approximately 4 or 5 feet and then would
it be possible for it to have struck Governor Connally in the back and
have inflicted the wound which you have described on the posterior
aspect of his chest, and also on the anterior aspect of his chest?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what would your reason be for giving an affirmative
answer to that question, Dr. Shaw?
Dr. SHAW. Because I would feel that a missile with this velocity and
weight striking no more than the soft tissues of the neck would have
adequate velocity and mass to inflict the wound that we found on the
Governor's chest.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, without respect to whether or not the bullet
identified as Commission Exhibit 399 is or is not the one which
inflicted the wound on the Governor, is it possible that a missile
similar to the one which I have just described in the hypothetical
question could have inflicted all of the Governor's wounds in
accordance with the theory which you have outlined on Commission
Exhibit No. 689?
Dr. SHAW. Assuming that it also had passed through the President's neck
you mean?
Mr. SPECTER. No; I had not added that factor in. I will in the next
question.
Dr. SHAW. All right. As far as the wounds of the chest are concerned,
I feel that this bullet could have inflicted those wounds. But the
examination of the wrist both by X-ray and at the time of surgery
showed some fragments of metal that make it difficult to believe that
the same missile could have caused these two wounds. There seems to be
more than three grains of metal missing as far as the--I mean in the
wrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Your answer there, though, depends upon the assumption
that the bullet which we have identified as Exhibit 399 is the bullet
which did the damage to the Governor. Aside from whether or not that
is the bullet which inflicted the Governor's wounds.
Dr. SHAW. I see.
Mr. SPECTER. Could a bullet traveling in the path which I have
described in the prior hypothetical question, have inflicted all of the
wounds on the Governor?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And so far as the velocity and the dimension of the bullet
are concerned, is it possible that the same bullet could have gone
through the President in the way that I have described and proceed
through the Governor causing all of his wounds without regard to
whether or not it was bullet 399?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. When you started to comment about it not being possible,
was that in reference to the existing mass and shape of bullet 399?
Dr. SHAW. I thought you were referring directly to the bullet shown as
Exhibit 399.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to whether bullet 399 could have
inflicted all of the wounds on the Governor, then, without respect at
this point to the wound of the President's neck?
Dr. SHAW. I feel that there would be some difficulty in explaining all
of the wounds as being inflicted by bullet Exhibit 399 without causing
more in the way of loss of substance to the bullet or deformation of
the bullet.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, have you had an opportunity today here in the
Commission building to view the movies which we referred to as the
Zapruder movies and the slides taken from these movies?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what, if any, light did those movies shed on your
evaluation and opinions on this matter with respect to the wounds of
the Governor?
Dr. SHAW. Well, my main interest was to try to place the time that the
Governor was struck by the bullet which inflicted the wound on his
chest in reference to the sequence of the three shots, as has been
described to us.
(At this point the Chief Justice entered the hearing room.)
This meant trying to carefully examine the position of the Governor's
body in the car so that it would fall in line with what we knew the
trajectory must be for this bullet coming from the point where it has
been indicated it did come from. And in trying to place this actual
frame that these frames are numbered when the Governor was hit, my
opinion was that it was frame number, let's see, I think it was No. 36.
Mr. SPECTER. 236?
Dr. SHAW. 236, give or take 1 or 2 frames. It was right in 35, 36, 37,
perhaps.
Mr. SPECTER. I have heretofore asked you questions about what
possibly could have happened in terms of the various combinations of
possibilities on missiles striking the Governor in relationship to
striking the President as well. Do you have any opinion as to what, in
fact, did happen?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. From the pictures, from the conversation with Governor
Connally and Mrs. Connally, it seems that the first bullet hit the
President in the shoulder and perforated the neck, but this was not the
bullet that Governor Connally feels hit him; and in the sequence of
films I think it is hard to say that the first bullet hit both of these
men almost simultaneously.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that view based on the information which Governor
Connally provided to you?
Dr. SHAW. Largely.
Mr. SPECTER. As opposed to any objectively determinable facts from the
bullets, the situs of the wounds or your viewing of the pictures?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. I was influenced a great deal by what Governor Connally
knew about his movements in the car at this particular time.
Mr. DULLES. You have indicated a certain angle of declination on this
chart here which the Chief Justice has.
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know enough about the angle of declination of the
bullet that hit the President to judge at all whether these two angles
of declination are consistent?
Dr. SHAW. We know that the angle of declination was a downward one from
back to front so that I think this is consistent with the angle of
declination of the wound that the Governor sustained.
Senator COOPER. Are you speaking of the angle of declination in the
President's body?
Dr. SHAW. Of the first wound?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Dr. SHAW. First wound.
Mr. SPECTER. What you have actually seen from pictures to show the
angle of declination?
Dr. SHAW. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. In the wounds in the President's body?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; that is right. I did not examine the President.
Mr. DULLES. And that angle taking into account say the 4 feet
difference between where the President was sitting and where the
Governor was sitting, would be consistent with the point of entry of
the Governor's body as you have shown it?
Dr. SHAW. The jump seat in the car, as we could see, placed the
Governor sitting at a lower level than the President, and I think
conceivably these two wounds could have been caused by the same bullet.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add, Dr. Shaw, which you
think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?
Dr. SHAW. I don't believe so Mr. Specter.
Mr. SPECTER. May it please the Commission then I would like to move
into evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 679 and 680, and then reserve
Nos. 681 and 682 until we get the photographs of the X-rays and I now
move for admission into evidence Commission Exhibits Nos. 683 through
689.
Senator COOPER. They have all been identified, have they?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; during the course of Dr. Shaw's testimony.
Senator COOPER. It is ordered then that these exhibits be received in
the record.
(The documents referred to, previously identified as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 679, 680, and 683-689 for identification were received in
evidence.)
Mr. McCLOY. Just one or two questions. It is perfectly clear, Doctor,
that the wound, the lethal wound on the President did not--the bullet
that caused the lethal wound on the President, did not cause any wounds
on Governor Connally, in your opinion?
Dr. SHAW. Mr. McCloy, I couldn't say that from my knowledge.
Mr. McCLOY. We are talking about the, following up what Mr. Dulles
said about the angle of declination, the wound that came through the
President's collar, you said was consistent between the same bullet. I
just wondered whether under all the circumstances that you know about
the President's head wound on the top that would also be consistent
with a wound in Governor Connally's body?
Dr. SHAW. On the chest, yes; I am not so sure about the wrist. I can't
quite place where his wrist was at the time his chest was struck.
Mr. McCLOY. Now perhaps this is Dr. Gregory's testimony, that is the
full description of the wrist wound, that would be his rather than your
testimony?
Dr. SHAW. I think he could throw just as much light on it as I could.
And more in certain aspects.
Mr. McCLOY. It did hit bone?
Dr. SHAW. Obviously.
Mr. McCLOY. And there must have been a considerable diminution in the
velocity of the bullet after penetrating through the wrist?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. The wound inflicted on it, the chest wound on Governor
Connally, if you move that an inch or two, 1 inch or the other, could
that have been lethal, go through an area that could easily have been
lethal?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; of course, if it had been moved more medially it could
have struck the heart and the great vessels.
Mr. McCLOY. Let me ask you this, Doctor, in your experience with
gunshot wounds, is it possible for a man to be hit sometime before he
realizes it?
Dr. SHAW. Yes. There can be a delay in the sensory reaction.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes; so that a man can think as of a given instant he was
not hit, and when actually he could have been hit.
Dr. SHAW. There can be an extending sensation and then just a gradual
building up of a feeling of severe injury.
Mr. McCLOY. But there could be a delay in any appreciable reaction
between the time of the impact of the bullet and the occurrence?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; but in the case of a wound which strikes a bony
substance such as a rib, usually the reaction is quite prompt.
Mr. McCLOY. Yes.
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Now, you have indicated, I think, that this bullet traveled
along, hit and traveled along the path of the rib, is that right?
Dr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. Is it possible that it could have not, the actual bullet
could not have hit the rib at all but it might have been the expanding
flesh that would cause the wound or the proper contusion, I guess you
would call it on the rib itself?
Dr. SHAW. I think we would have to postulate that the bullet hit the
rib itself by the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without
doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it.
Mr. McCLOY. Was--up until you gave him the anesthetic--the Governor was
fully conscious, was he?
Dr. SHAW. I would not say fully, but he was responsive. He would answer
questions.
Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have.
The CHAIRMAN. I have no questions of the doctor.
Mr. DULLES. There were no questions put to him that were significant as
far as our testimony is concerned?
Dr. SHAW. No; we really don't have to question him much. Our problem
was pretty clearcut, and he told us it hurt and that was about his only
response as far as----
Senator COOPER. Could I ask you a question, doctor?
I think you said from the time you came into the emergency room and the
time you went to the operating room was about 5 minutes?
Dr. SHAW. Yes; it was just the time that it took to ask a few simple
questions, what has been done so far, and has the operating room been
alerted, and then I went out and talked to Mrs. Connally, just very
briefly, I told her what the problem was in respect to the Governor and
what we were going to have to do about it and she said to go ahead with
anything that was necessary. So this couldn't have taken more than 5
minutes or so.
Mr. DULLES. Did he say anything or did anyone say anything there about
the circumstances of the shooting?
Dr. SHAW. Not at that time.
Mr. DULLES. Either of Governor Connally or the President?
Dr. SHAW. Not at that time. All of our conversation was later.
Mr. DULLES. Was the President in the same room?
Dr. SHAW. No.
Mr. DULLES. Did you see him?
Dr. SHAW. I only saw his shoes and his feet. He was in the room
immediately opposite. As I came into the hallway, I could recognize
that the President was on it, in the room to my right. I knew that my
problem was concerned with Governor Connally, and I turned and went
into the room where I saw that he was.
Mr. DULLES. Did you hear at that time or have any knowledge, of a
bullet which had been found on the stretcher?
Dr. SHAW. No; this was later knowledge.
Mr. DULLES. When did you first hear that?
(At this point Senator Russell entered the hearing room.)
Dr. SHAW. This information was first given to me by a man from the
Secret Service who interviewed me in my office several weeks later. It
is the first time I knew about any bullet being recovered.
Senator COOPER. I think, of course, it is evident from your testimony
you have had wide experience in chest wounds and bullet wounds in the
chest.
What experience have you had in, say, the field of ballistics? Would
this experience--you have been dealing in chest wounds caused by
bullets--have provided you knowledge also about the characteristics of
missiles, particularly bullets of this type?
Dr. SHAW. No; Senator. I believe that my information about ballistics
is just that of an average layman, no more. Perhaps a little more since
I have seen deformed bullets from wounds, but I haven't gone into that
aspect of wounds.
Senator COOPER. In the answers to the hypothetical questions that were
addressed to you, based upon the only actual knowledge which you could
base that answer, was the fact that you had performed the operation on
the wound caused in the chest, on the wound in the chest?
Dr. SHAW. That is true. I have seen many bullets that have passed
through bodies or have penetrated bodies and have struck bone and I
know manners from which they are deformed but I know very little about
the caliber of bullets, the velocity of bullets, many things that other
people have much more knowledge of than I have.
Senator COOPER. That is all.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Dr. Shaw.