Mr. KRYSTINIK. Now that you mentioned to me that he isn't supposed
to own that gun, it is possible that he did say that, but the way I
remember is that he said "He is not supposed to have a gun."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression at that time that Michael had
any foreknowledge of Oswald's possible involvement?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. None at all. I felt it hit him as a big shock.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that you were the first one to mention
Oswald's name?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. The basic reason you mentioned it was because you had
associated his name with the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other reason why you thought of Oswald in
connection with the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Oh, it might possibly be; I can't really tell you, it
was all just everything was going that way, and it was a trying thing
of oppression and worry at that particular time.
It may be that he is the only Communist I have ever been introduced to,
that I knew was possibly a Communist or Marxist, or whatever they are,
and he was the only villain I could think of at the time, possibly. And
I didn't really feel that he was a villain. I didn't really feel it was
him, but he was the only person I knew connected with the Communist
Party, and if the Communist Party should be associated with something,
his was the name that came to my mind, possibly.
I feel the correlation came through the fact that Michael had told me
about him getting a job at the Texas School Depository, and when I
heard the name again, I feel that was the correlation that brought his
name to my mind. A lot of these things, I don't know where or how they
come to mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard that Oswald had been apprehended in
connection with the slaying of Officer Tippit, did you and Michael
Paine then associate Oswald with the assassination of the President?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I did, and I feel that Michael did also.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you and Michael say to each other just very
shortly after the word had come through?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really remember. Michael said that he felt
that he should be going home, that Ruth and Marina are both going to
be muchly upset and there was going to be people at the house asking
questions, and he felt he should be there to answer them. He did say,
if I can answer, "I feel I should be there."
Mr. LIEBELER. He said that prior to the time that Oswald had been
publicly connected with the assassination, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I just really don't know. Prior to Oswald's being
apprehended, there was a description of the man on the radio, if
I remember correctly, and the shot had been--it had been reported
that--can we go back just a little bit?
Mr. LIEBELER. Sure.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. More of this is coming back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Surely.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the time the radio had commented that the shots had
come from the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository, and they
put out a description of a young man. After I had asked Michael about
the possibility of Oswald, well, he commented that that is where Oswald
works.
Then they put out the description of the young man, and I said that
fits him pretty good, to the best of my memory. You don't think it
could have been him? They did put out the description prior to his
arrest and prior to his having shot Officer Tippit.
Mr. LIEBELER. The description seemed to fit Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. The description seemed to fit Oswald, and they did at
that time, if I remember, comment on him being about 25 years old. I
think that was the age they gave, weighing about 160 pounds, and being
sandy head, and if I remember right, they said a fair complexion. I
don't remember that part of it. And shortly, just a little while after
that, they commented on Officer Tippit having been shot and Oswald
having been arrested in the Texas Theatre.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Michael the possibility that the
description given fitted Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did. I said it sounds like him. Do you think we
should call the FBI. And he said, "Let's wait a little bit." And at
that particular time he said that he didn't see any way in the world it
could be Oswald at all. Besides, the man was in Oak Cliff, and Oswald
was--works in the School Book Depository.
They commented on the radio there was a man fitting this description
and having shot Officer Tippet in Oak Cliff, and being shot. They
commented on Tippit, and they were after him, and it was after they
arrested him in the Oak Cliff Theatre.
Mr. LIEBELER. The description of this individual was given out after
Officer Tippit had been shot, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. It seems that someone had seen him shoot Officer Tippit.
I don't remember that for sure, the description was on the radio.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did Michael say when you suggested that he call the
FBI?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. He said, "If it is him, there is nothing they could do
right now. It seems they are right after him. He didn't see in any way
in the world it could be him. He didn't believe that it could be him."
And then just a little bit after that, I can't remember time spans,
that was a pretty bad day--when I first heard about it having been
Oswald, to the best of my recollection, the thing he said was that, "He
is not even supposed to have a gun." He may have been meaning to the
best of his knowledge, he didn't know that he owned a gun. That would
have been what he meant.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you at the time that Michael
didn't want to advise the FBI?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; it didn't at all. We had talked about--Michael is a
little, I couldn't call him an odd duck, but he is very different. He
doesn't like to intrude on anyone's personal privacy at all, I mean,
the least little bit.
I can be making a telephone conversation to my wife or to the company
on business, and he is very careful not to come into the office, and he
will see me on the telephone and turn around and go back. He is very
careful to afford to other people all the privacy that he can.
At the same time, we commented before when I had seen a fellow taking
movies of the Chance Vought FAU 3 Crusader from the road above a
railroad embankment just north of the naval air station, of the 11735
and I was a little bit wrangled about it and accosted the man did
he--if he couldn't read signs, that that was an--that was a United
States Government reservation and no photographs permitted, and he said
he was recording the historical information of the aircraft for the
future.
It seems that no one is actually doing this and he was claiming this
date and time that the FAU 3 was a fairly new airplane. And I don't
know that taking that picture would hurt. There have been pictures of
it in Aviation Week. It still wrangled me that someone would be taking
pictures when there were signs up saying not to, and I accosted him,
and I got his name. And I felt that he was probably lying to me, and I
got his license number of his car, also.
The next day while they were discussing the situation at work, and
Michael said, regardless of the signs there, that he was standing in a
public right-of-way, and anything that could be photographed from the
public right-of-way he could technically, regardless of what the signs
said on the fence.
If it is something super secret, they should maintain a security check
and faithfully check it out.
I asked him if he thought I should go ahead and call the FBI or the
security officer at the naval air station. He said, I could do what I
wanted. He certainly wouldn't tell me not to. Yet at the same time it
was entirely possible that the guy was a nut and doing exactly what he
said he was doing, and we might cause him a lot of inconvenience and
a lot of unhappiness by hollering wolf when the man had done nothing
wrong. He said it would be better had I gone ahead at the time and had
him arrested on the spot.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think that Michael's attitude toward calling the FBI
in connection with Oswald's involvement was similar to the attitude
that you explained in the situation you have just described?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; and at the same time it still is his attitude. A
fellow ran into the back of his Citroen and damaged it. And I said,
"Well, you got his name, serial, license number and so forth?" And he
said, "No, the man said that he would pay for it." I said, "Did you
call the police in the event he sues you for a broken neck?" He said,
"No, I take a man at his word."
He exhibited that several times to assume him to be honest until you
have good reason or absolute proof positive. He would have to see in
his mind that the man had done it before he actually would bring forth
civilly, because he would feel that the man was actually going to sue
him before he would take measures to even protect himself. As it worked
out, I don't know whether the man ever paid for fixing the back end of
his car, because he drove it that way for a long time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Michael since he returned from
Washington?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss the testimony that he gave the Commission?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only in that he said that he felt that he didn't give
them anything that was news to them, that he said he told them about
the same thing he told the FBI and other people that had talked to him.
He felt that he hadn't earned his plane ticket.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't discuss any of the details of the testimony?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; none of the details.
At any rate, I did call the Security Officer and the naval air station
in Dallas, and as it worked out, the fellow had been working for
himself--seems he is out every Saturday and Sunday and that he had been
checked out and is apparently a nut, rather than a Communist.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you think the
Commission should know about in connection with the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Nothing in connection with the assassination.
In connection with Michael, I would almost stake my reputation on his
apparent honesty. I feel he is as good, I think, in his heart as he is
on the surface.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he had anything to do with the events
leading up to the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I don't feel that he had anything to do with it. I think
if he had been of a more suspicious nature, he could possibly have
avoided the President being shot.
He told me after the President was killed and after it had come out
that the rifle had possibly been stored at his home, that he had moved
in his garage some sort of heavy object about this long wrapped up in a
blanket, and he had the impression when he moved it this was some sort
of camping equipment, and that it was considerably heavier than camping
equipment he had been dealing with, and it never occurred to him it
might be a gun or rifle that had been broken down.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you indicate approximately how long the package was?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. He said something about like that [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. How long would you say that was?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Looking at it, I would say 26 or 28 inches. Maybe 30
inches.
Mr. LIEBELER. [Measuring]. The witness indicates a length of
approximately 27 inches.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Michael might have had his hands up 2 or 3 inches
different from that.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, Michael indicated the
length of about 27 inches?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he did not suspect at any time prior to
the assassination that this package contained a rifle, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That's correct. Or a gun. He didn't state rifle in
reference to the weapon.
Michael had commented briefly that he had never had a gun or would not
have a gun in his house. He is opposed. I would assume he is opposed to
killing men. I know he is opposed to killing animals, and he doesn't
believe in violence at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Aside from this remark that you made about Michael Paine,
is there anything else that you can think of that you would like to
tell us in connection with either the assassination or Michael Paine at
this point?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Nothing I can think of now. I have taken enough of your
time. I can't really think of anything that is concrete from beginning
to end that I feel would help you. I don't know of anything that is
important.
Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know Ruth Paine?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. We have been to her house once. We have been to the
Dallas Dollar Concert with he and Ruth one time. We have had her at our
house twice. Actually I can't say that I know her real well. I feel
that I know Michael fairly well.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't really know Ruth well? Well enough to make any
judgment about her character?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only when I have talked to her, I had an impression I
have been talking to an extremely sincere and very warm person.
I felt that if she had done something, she is of such a type she would
say, "I did it." That is the impression I have about her. I don't know
her well enough to make judgment upon her. I don't know Michael well
enough to judge him. All I know of him is the association I had with
him at work and the little bit I have had with him in my home. I don't
actually know what he does on his off time, but in my association with
him at work and what I know of him at home, I have actually come to
love him as much as I love my brother.
Mr. LIEBELER. Based upon your knowledge of both of the Paines, you
have no reason to suspect them of any involvement of any kind in the
assassination, do you?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only as victims of a very cruel twist of fate, that is
all I can say, and that they are in that position because of their
charity. I think it is a vexatious, cruel reward for charity, to be
associated with the people, or to harbor the wife of the assassin--I
won't say harbor--I don't say she had anything to do with it. Michael
told me that Oswald visited the Paine residence on weekends.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any more questions at this time. Unless you
have something else you want to add we shall terminate the questioning.
Thank you, Mr. Krystinik.
Let me indicate that the witness is willing to waive signature of the
transcript, is that so?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Transcriber's Notes:
Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant
preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.
Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be
due to mispronunciations were not changed.
Some simple typographical errors were corrected.
Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.
Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.
Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.
Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of
conversation?") retained.
Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.
Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.
Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be
periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at
the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at
the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so
faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and
corrected, but some almost certainly remain.
The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be
available at Project Gutenberg.
Text uses "Le Gon" and "LeGon", possibly deliberately; not changed.
Text uses "door jamb", "doorjamb", "doorjam", "jamb", and "jam"; none
changed.
"Exhibits Introduced" lists Exhibit No. 364 on page 93, but it is on
page 447.
Page 1: "The Commission to investigate" was printed that way.
Page 16: "quite a field" was misprinted as "quiet"; changed here.
Page 23: "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 5" was misprinted as "Exhibt";
changed here.
Page 25: "Yours sincerly," was printed that way in quoted material; not
changed.
Page 28: "And your last name is" was misprinted as "you"; changed here.
Page 43: "Have you seen him at any time" was misprinted as "see";
changed here.
Page 52: "who was at that stage a political" probably should be
"apolitical".
Page 56: "banding about" possibly should be "bandying".
Page 61: "we were kidnapped from the Germans" was misprinted as
"kidnaped"; changed here.
Page 63: "You joined your husband here" was misprinted as "you";
changed here.
Page 64: "The husband would not take them to the hospital" was
misprinted as "huband"; changed here.
Page 72: "see if they're any corrections" was printed that way; not
changed.
Page 74: "assistant cameraman" was misprinted as "camerman"; changed
here.
Page 85: "seemed to be person of" was printed that way; not changed.
Page 89: "I think they were located" was misprinted as "thing"; changed
here.
Page 103: "one of the other of us" probably should be "or"; not changed.
Page 103: "And prior to 1952" was printed with that date.
Page 104: One or more lines after "Mr. MAMANTOV. Or way of government."
appear to be missing from the Testimony.
Page 111: "on that particular morning" was misprinted as "partciular";
changed here.
Page 116 and elsewhere: "Mamantov" occasionally was misprinted as
"Manantov"; all have been changed here.
Page 131: "I lived until 1950 in Ventspils" probably should be "1915".
Page 148: "always expressed what I would interpret" was misprinted as
"expresed"; changed here.
Page 162: "when I was 5 years old" is an unlikely age in this context.
Page 179: "was eventually expropriated" was misprinted as "eventally";
changed here.
Page 195: "ex-nephew" was printed as "exnephew"; changed here for
consistency with other compound words beginning with "ex-".
Page 215: "and a shotgun with us, And to be able" was punctuated and
capitalized that way.
Page 248: "Or the use of any weapons or his right to have weapons when
he was in Russia?" is shown as dialog spoken by Mr. De Mohrenschildt,
but probably was spoken by Mr. Jenner.
Page 269: "Zitkoff" is spelled "Jitkoff" elsewhere in this text.
Page 291: "Four little kinds" probably should be "kids"; not changed.
Page 320: "Yoico" should be "Yaeko"; not changed.
Page 311: "so boldy" probably should be "boldly".
Page 320: "little Japanese girl now, you now" probably should be "you
know".
Page 331: The Index referenced in Footnote 1 may not be available
at Project Gutenberg. The other volume referenced in that footnote
probably is Volume III, which is available at Project Gutenberg.
Page 363: "registered a false, positive" was printed with the comma in
that position.
Page 420: "comittee" is misprint for "committee"; not changed.
Page 433: "a year. IN the early winter" was printed that way.
Page 438: "that was too symmetrical" was misprinted as "two"; changed
here.
Page 440: "I though it was" probably should be "thought".
Page 441: "Commission Exhibit 148" possibly should be "140".
Page 447: "Yes; is seems to me" probably should be "it".
Page 449: "it made by heart leap" probably should be "my".
Page 458: "but I though it said" probably should be "thought".