Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to whether he was a member
of any group, Marxist or Communist group?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. In reference to what Michael had told me that he
defected to Russia and that he claimed himself as being a Marxist,
now I am afraid that in my mind I felt he was a Communist or a Red,
and my immediate impressions were that even though he had nothing to
offer me with which to place trust in him, I didn't trust him and kind
of considered him, I guess I looked at him really like someone at a
dog that might bite. I disliked the man. I disliked him without him
giving me personally an actual reason. I disliked him before I met him
on the basis of conversation with Michael. I disliked him when I met
him in that I felt he was talking down to me and felt he was somewhat
better than I was. He acted as he felt he had complete command of the
conversation, was leading it, and was controlling what was going to be
said, and I like to talk too.
We talked back and forth, but rather than a pleasant discussion, it was
more of an argument.
Mr. LIEBELER. You got no impression at any time during the course of
your meeting with Oswald that he was an actual member of any Communist
or Marxist group?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I felt that he was, but that was only by saying, "I
am a Marxist." To me, that categorized him. But as to any specific
organization, I had no impression that he belonged to any specific
group.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald display any anger to you during the course of
your conversation with him?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't remember, really. I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you now told us, to the best of your recollection,
the entire conversation that occurred between you and Oswald on that
occasion?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only to the best of my recollection. I am sure that we
talked more.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention anything to you about having been in the
Marines?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. He didn't. Michael had told me previously that he had
been in the Marines.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had Michael told you that Oswald received an undesirable
discharge from the Marine Corps?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't have any discussion about that with Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Oswald about his
impressions while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I did ask him to tell me about Russia, but then the
conversation diverged back into the economic end of the capitalism
versus communism. He commented that the work hours were long and the
pay wasn't particularly good. That was about the main thing. It was
just that long in reference to the Soviet Union and we were back to
capitalism. He didn't seem to care to talk particularly about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. His remarks about the pay and working conditions in the
Soviet Union were a general remark?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Just general.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't tell you how much he was paid or what kind of
job he had?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, he didn't. Michael, I believe, told me afterwards,
if I remember correctly, that he was doing something in an electronic
firm or electrical industry.
Mr. LIEBELER. But Oswald himself told you nothing about his stay in the
Soviet Union other than you have already told us?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Basically.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened after the meeting was over?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. As we were going out, I commented to Michael that we
were going to have to set this boy up in business and convert him. And
he said that the only thing he approached humor, he commented, "The
money might corrupt me." I can remember that as a quote.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is what Oswald said?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is what Oswald said.
Mr. LIEBELER. He said that in a joking manner?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. In a joking manner.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, however, Oswald did not indicate any
particular sense of humor to you?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No humor. He indicated no violence. He impressed me
as being cold. You can talk to some people and say they are warm and
sincere. He impressed me as being cold and stereotyped. He had fixed
notions in his head, and I had the impression he had his mind made up
regardless of how good an argument you presented. His mind was made up
that he was not going to admit, regardless of how strong it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss with Michael Paine your
argument with Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Prior to the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us generally what you said and what
Michael said?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Michael said that he knew of what was coming, so he went
on off and talked with my wife and with another fellow. There was no
point in him sticking around. He knew Oswald had a closed mind.
He didn't say, "closed mind." Michael is a rather unusual type of
person. He is careful not to overly, severely criticize anyone or
make unkind comments about other people, even though he himself has
sensitive emotions and feels--you have talked with him. I guess you
have the same impression.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all that you and Michael said about your
(conversation) discussion with Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. With reference to this conversation, I related to him
just about what Oswald had said to me. It wasn't exactly in detail. I
didn't talk about him, as long about the actual conversation, as I have
talked to you. He said that he knew how it was going to go and there
wasn't any point in his staying around. He knew how Oswald would react.
Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated to you that he had had previous similar
experiences?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about this in specific detail?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only that he argued with him and the man loved to talk
economics, and that at first he was very, very interesting to talk
to, but that once the man had said all that he wanted to, or all that
he was particularly interested in, it was then a repeat, and that
it was always all locked in in a small little body, that he didn't
particularly have any area for growth, that he had a certain fixed
image in his mind, and was reluctant to have it improved or changed.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael indicate to you that Oswald received any
periodicals or literature concerning economic or social and political
questions of the time that you discussed?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Prior to the assassination, no, he didn't. I am trying
to--I forget now exactly--I have read the newspapers and I heard so
darn much about it on the radio and television, it is actually hard to
strain out exactly who said what. I know that he had gotten Communist
literature, and I can't remember whether it was from Michael or from
the news media that I heard this.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall any other discussions between Michael
Paine and yourself, concerning Lee Oswald that occurred prior to the
assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; not really.
Mr. LIEBELER. The occasion that you met Oswald at the ACLU meeting was
the only time at which you ever met Oswald, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that you had met Marina Oswald and child
prior to that time.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; Michael had bought an old blue--he had a French
Citroen automobile. At any rate, he had the two cars and he wanted me
to drive either his car home or follow him home in my car. And he was
taking the Oldsmobile to Irving and I followed him in my car and took
him back to the research laboratory and picked up his Citroen. At any
rate, when I drove the car in, he went into the house and brought Ruth
out and Marina. And all I remember is one little girl. I didn't see the
baby. The little girl came out with her mother and Ruth introduced me
to Marina. She impressed me at the time as very sweet and very polite.
I spoke as slowly and as distinctly as I could to her in English, Texan
to be exact, and she turned to Marina--Marina turned to Ruth and spoke
to her in Russian, and I asked Ruth if I was talking too fast, and
Marina said I am talking too Texan.
At any rate, that was about it. I told her that she had a beautiful
little girl and hoped that she would like the United States. And she
commented that she did, that it was a wonderful country. That I can
remember for sure. That impressed me, because it seems that where there
is a possibility of a Russian saying something nice, it is nice to have
a compliment. At least I felt complimented.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina indicated that to you in English, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't remember whether it was the words, but that was
the way I took it to be. It was my thinking, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina understand the remarks that you had made to
her in English?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Apparently she followed the trend, but she turned to
Ruth for exact interpretation, and Ruth told me that I wasn't talking
too fast, just too Texan. That was Marina's comment.
At first I was talking just to Marina back and forth, and she said just
a few words, and I asked her how old the child was, and if I remember
exactly, 2 or 3. I have forgotten. But one- or two-word answers, and
I had no trouble at all understanding her up to that point. When Ruth
entered into the conversation, she turned and relied directly and
totally upon Ruth. I talked to her only about 5 minutes in all. I
talked with her while Ruth was looking at the car with Michael. I mean
I talked to her rather than with her.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was after Marina had given birth to the second
child. Is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; seemed like only a week or 2 weeks.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any discussion of Lee Oswald at that time?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; his name wasn't mentioned. I hadn't met him at
that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met Lyman Paine? That would be Michael's
father. Did you ever discuss Lyman Paine with Michael?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Only once. We talked about him a couple of times, but
one time Michael, just prior to Michael buying the land in Irving for
his future shop.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when that was?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I can't remember, but it was about a week prior
to his buying the land.
Mr. LIEBELER. I see.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can fix the time. He had commented that he had been
invited by his father to the west coast for the weekend.
I know that the previous time Michael had been saving his money to buy
this land, and I feel that he didn't have enough money at the time,
and he flew out on a Friday evening, if I remember correctly, and flew
back to Dallas early Monday morning, and he was sleepy and tired at
work that day. We talked and I asked him if he had a nice time visiting
with his father, and he commented that he had a nice time and that his
father had a very nice party. And it seemed this was somewhat of an
international party. He talked about this Negress that he had met who
was extremely interesting. Her husband had written a book on labor, and
he talked mainly about this woman and the conversation he had with her.
Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation occurred at a party that Lyman Paine
had given in Los Angeles is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; that's right. He didn't tell me in detail why he
was particularly interested. He said she was a very interesting person,
and that he had talked to a group of other people, several other
people. He said that there was a man from West or East Germany, and I
remember he said that there were some Chinese people there, and I don't
remember whether they were or were not from the Communist bloc. I don't
remember that. But he commented on several other people that were, in
my book, I would say they were each one an extremist of some form or
other at the time--at the time that he was telling me about them. They
were at least very different than you would meet on the street. That
doesn't make them bad, don't misunderstand me. That was the impression
I had. He didn't say they were Communist or bad people or anything like
that. They were just very, very different.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael indicate to you that his father had been
active in the affairs of the Communist Party?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; he didn't. I asked him what his father did, and he
said he was an architect, and that was the comment. It seemed there was
some mention made about a Communist or a fellow that had communistic
interests being at the party, and I asked him what kind of people does
your father associate with. He said he didn't know really what his
father does. That was his comment. He didn't know what his father does,
that he really knows that he is an architect and that is about it. That
was Michael's comment.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what kind of a man his father was?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; not really. I talked to him about it very
little, and I do know that just shortly after he came back from Los
Angeles, Michael did buy this plot of land and he did pay cash, $3,000,
and I had the impression that prior to his going to Los Angeles he
didn't have the money.
I had that impression because he commented that there was time for
him to pay or give--we were talking about church donations during the
coffee break one day shortly after that, and he commented that he was
really going to have to do something about his bank account, it was
time to pay his pledge dues at the Unitarian Church and he didn't
have the money in the bank, and 3 or so weeks later he had $3,000,
for a plot of land, so I am assuming, I am not a detective, that he
had gotten the money from his father or from Art Young, who is his
stepfather. One of those two persons, he had gotten the money. He had,
if I remember correctly, Art Young was in Texas, so one of these two
places he had gotten the money. Those are the impressions I had, that
he had gotten it from his father.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion about this with Michael?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I didn't. I want to make it clear that I don't
know. These are impressions that I had.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that he went to Los Angeles for the
purpose of visiting his father?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't state it in that way. He said that
his father offered to pay for the plane ticket to the west coast, and
he thought it was a wonderful opportunity to visit his father, and this
was the discussion prior to his leaving.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was not sent to the west coast on business for Bell
Helicopter?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he has been sent to Pennsylvania on Bell
Helicopter business. I am aware of that.
Mr. LIEBELER. But so far as you know, he was not sent to Los Angeles on
Bell Helicopter business?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; so far as I feel that if he had, that he would
have told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a friend of Michael Paine's?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I would like to consider myself a friend of his, and by
my telling you things, I feel that I am still a friend of his. I think
that he is--I feel that he has absolutely nothing to hide, and in all
honesty, I don't feel that what I tell you can in any way hurt him, and
if it would hurt him, he has been going--he has been doing something he
shouldn't have been doing, and if he has, why we need to know about it,
because that is just the way I feel. I don't feel like I am squealing
on him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that his father had called him
shortly after the assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, the last contact Michael had with
his father is when he went to Los Angeles shortly prior to the time he
bought this tract in Irving?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; that is the last comment he made to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you when you learned that fact that the
President had been shot?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the research laboratory. We were listening to the
radio. We had listened to the President's speech from the Texas Hotel
parking lot in Fort Worth. I think that almost every one at the
laboratory honestly really liked President Kennedy and was all for
him. We were much interested in him whenever he did make a speech. I
believe during working hours we always listened to his speech, and we
were listening to the radio at the time. When the first report came in,
they had been talking about the motorcade through downtown Dallas, and
switched to the Market Hall, and the commentator was talking from the
Market Hall, and the first comment there, was a report that there was
shots fired at the President. And he didn't say he had been hit.
Then there was some discussion on the radio, and then it came through,
this is official that the President of the United States has been
fired at by an assassin or an attempted assassination. And in a little
while it came through he had been hit and taken to Parkland Hospital,
and the reports were that he and Governor Connally were both hit and
both considered to be in serious condition. And it came through that
they were both alive but both in extremely critical condition. And
finally, I think it was about an hour later the report came through the
President had expired. And Michael exhibited real outward emotion. He
had his back turned and his head was down slightly and he really cried.
And I don't feel that Michael is the type that could make crocodile
tears in seriousness.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Michael with you when you first heard of the fact
that the President had been fired at?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; we were all in the lab in the office.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eat lunch with Michael that day?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; I didn't. I don't think I did. I do eat with
him quite often off and on. Most of the time I stay at the lab and
drink my can of Metrecal.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your knowledge, you did not eat with
Michael?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I recall I did not that day, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. But also to the best of your recollection, you were both
in the lab?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. We were both in the office portion of the lab. Michael
has a stereo hi-fi that he brought to the lab for use by all of us.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were there at that time when you first heard that the
President had been fired at?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. And immediately when the first report came in that
the President had been fired at, three or four of us, I forget them,
myself, Michael Paine, Ken Sambell, and Clarke Benham all gathered
right around the radio like a bunch of ticks and stayed there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Noel there?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Dave Noel, yes; I believe he was. I believe Dave was the
one that went to dinner with Michael, if I am correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. He went to lunch with Michael?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. As best you can recall, you had not heard anything about
the attempted assassination prior to the time Michael and Dave returned
from lunch?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; we were listening on the radio and heard the report.
As far as being shot at, I can't remember exactly whether Michael was
there when the very, very first report came in, but he was there when
the report came in. He was there when the report came in that he had
died.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Michael have any conversations about the
assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; we did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us to the best of your recollection what he said?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I commented, "Who in the blue-eyed world would do a
thing like that?" And if I remember right, Michael didn't make any
immediate comment at all about the assassination other than what a
terrible thing and what in the world could he gain. We commented, first
immediate impression was that possibly the John Birch people would have
had a grievance against him, possibly, and we talked about that.
And Michael said he didn't know. He wouldn't expect that the Communists
would do it, yet at the same time he wouldn't expect the John Birch
people to do it and wouldn't know. Then the first report came through
that he had been fired at from Elm and Houston Streets in that area,
and at that time Michael commented that, well, that is right close to
the Texas School Book Depository.
I did remember prior to the assassination Michael telling me that
Oswald had finally gotten a job and he was working at the Texas School
Book Depository, and at that particular time right then, I said, "You
don't think it could be Oswald?" And he said, "No, it couldn't be him."
At any rate, he had the same impression I had, that none of us could
really believe it was a person they had met. It was such a big thing
that a person doesn't imagine himself having met a person that could do
such an act.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your first discussion with Michael on the question of
Oswald's possible involvement in the assassination came after you had
learned that the shots were fired in the vicinity of Elm and Houston
near the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; he commented about Elm and Houston, and he said
that is where the Texas School Book Depository is, and the next comment
was I commented, "Well isn't that where Oswald works?" And he says,
"That is where he works." And I said, "Do you think it could be him?"
And he said, "No; he doesn't see any way in the world it could have
been him." But it wasn't but just a little bit----
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me interrupt you for a moment. You were the first one
to mention Oswald's name in connection with the assassination between
you and Michael Paine, is that correct?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; everyone was standing around.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you think of Oswald's name in connection with the
assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I guess mainly because the first time I had heard of
the Texas Book Depository was, Michael told me Oswald had gotten a job
there. And when he said Texas Book, that was perhaps the second time
I had ever heard the name. I don't know that I actually knew they had
one. And when he said Texas Book Depository, it immediately rang right
back. And I said, "That's where Oswald works."
And I didn't think of Oswald shooting the President at that time. I
just commented that was where he works. And then my next comment, "You
don't think it could be him?" And he said, "No; of course not, it
wouldn't be him." And it wasn't but just a little while later that we
heard that Officer Tippit had been shot, and it wasn't very long after
that that it came through that the Oswald fellow had been captured,
had had a pistol with him, and Michael used some expression, I have
forgotten exactly what the expression was, and then he said, "The
stupid," something, I have forgotten. It wasn't a complimentary thing.
He said, "He is not even supposed to have a gun."
And that I can quote, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." Or, "Not
even supposed to own a gun," I have forgotten.
We talked about it a little bit more, about how or why or what would
the reasons be behind, that he would have absolutely nothing to gain,
he could hurt himself and the nation, but couldn't gain anything
personal, and we discussed it.
That immediately ruled out the John Birch, but why would the Communists
want him dead, and Michael couldn't imagine whether it was a plot or a
rash action by the man himself. He didn't know which it could be. He
said he didn't know. And he called home then to Ruth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, you specifically remember that
Michael said that Oswald was not even supposed to have a gun?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; I remember that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember those exact words?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. He could have said, "Oswald doesn't own a gun."
That could be. That could be. The exact thing is cloudy a little bit.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your best recollection on the point?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. My best recollection is, "He is not supposed to have a
gun," or something in that vicinity. That is the best I remember right
now.