The testimony of Raymond Franklin Krystinik was taken at 9 a.m., on
March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Albert
E. Jenner, Jr. and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the
President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Krystinik, I am a member of the legal staff of the
President's Commission which has been established pursuant to Executive
Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963.
Last week Mr. Rankin sent you a letter and told you that I would be in
touch with you, did he not?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Enclosed with that letter were copies of the Executive
Order 11130, and a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and
the rules of the Commission's procedure in taking the testimony.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You received those documents?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The general nature of our inquiry is to ascertain,
evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of
President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
We wish to inquire of you as to your knowledge of Oswald as a result
of your having met him, as we understand it, through Michael Paine
prior to the assassination. We also want to question you about some
of the events that occurred shortly after the assassination, and some
conversation you had with Mr. Paine at that time.
Would you state your name for the record?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Raymond Franklin Krystinik.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. 2121 Greenway Street, Arlington, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Bell Helicopter Research Laboratory, located at 33006
Avenue E, East, Arlington, Tex. It is a part of Bell Helicopter Co.
Their address is Box 482, Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for Bell?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Since June 6, 1960.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational
background is, Mr. Krystinik?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I started grade school in Caldwell, Tex. I moved to
Bryan and finished grade school in the Smetana School at Bryan, Tex.
And from there to Fredericksburg. At Fredericksburg I went to St.
Mary's Catholic School and grade school, and from Fredericksburg
to Grand Prairie, Tex. I went to high school in Grand Prairie, Tex.
Graduated in 1950.
I went to work for Chance Vought Aircraft Aviation from high school.
Went into the Navy in 1952, I believe. I don't remember exactly. I have
to look it up. I was married in 1954. Got out of the Navy in August
of 1954. Started to school at Arlington State College in September of
1954, and I graduated from Arlington State in June of 1956.
Went to Texas A&M, I think starting in January of 1957. I graduated
from Texas A&M in June of 1960. On June 6, I went to work for Bell
Helicopter. These are just approximate dates. I think they are just
about right, but I am not right sure. If you need it, I can give you
the exact dates.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is all right. What kind of work do you do for Bell
Helicopter?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I am a research engineer. I work in the research group.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your work relates to helicopters and their design?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Actually right now; no. Right now, I am working on
what I think the company could classify as a flying machine. Is that
adequate?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. When were you born?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. August 31, 1932.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently married?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any children?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I have three.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Michael Paine?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him, approximately? And under what
circumstances?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Approximately in June of 1961, if I remember correctly.
I was assigned to the research group on a temporary assignment, and at
the research laboratory I met Michael and worked with him then off and
on up through now.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are working with him now?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I went to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties
Union on the campus of SMU. I don't remember the date, except I do
remember it was the night after Mr. Stevenson's unhappy visit to Dallas
when the lady, I believe, swatted him with a placard.
Mr. LIEBELER. That was sometime in October of 1963?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; it was October of 1963. Oswald was at the meeting,
and Michael introduced me to him. He had told me about the man before.
Mr. LIEBELER. What had Michael Paine told you about Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I mean told me that at the time there was a Russian
lady living with his wife Ruth and that just exactly, I can't remember
his exact words, but there was this fellow who was an ex-Marine who
had defected to Russia. I can remember that he told me that, that he
defected to Russia, and the fellow decided it wasn't for him and he
came back to the United States. And was, in general, a misfit and not
capable of holding a good job; generally dissatisfied, and didn't
accept the responsibilities for his family, and Michael's wife had
taken Marina to help her for the time being.
That was the reference made to him prior to having met him.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection, is that all Michael
Paine told you about Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At that particular time we discussed him--during that
period of time Michael was eating supper with us on an average of once
a week, and we discussed the man as being odd, or at least a little
different. Michael said he couldn't understand the man exactly. He
commented that he shirked or ran from responsibilities. As long as he
had money and had a job, he was willing to stay around his family and
support them, but when he lost a job and didn't have the money, he
apparently took off. I can remember him telling me that about him, and
when I met him at Selecman Hall, I didn't feel overly happy to meet the
man, or that I had made an acquaintance of value.
They were there before my wife and I came. As we walked in and sat
down, Oswald was there, and it didn't occur to me then that he might be
the man. Prior to the meeting starting, he introduced me to him.
Michael, I am referring to--Michael introduced me. I need to keep my
chain more correct, straight. Michael introduced me to Lee Oswald. As
the meeting started, about that time--before the meeting first there
was a little bit of talk. I don't remember what the chairman of the
meeting said prior to the film starting.
They showed a film about a Senator or Congressman or legislator, some
form of public servant who was running for reelection in Washington
State, and the far right people wanted him out in a campaign, stating
that his wife had connections with the Communist Party, and apparently
she had had connections during her college days but had severed
relations with the party and had given evidence to the FBI and an
investigating team and apparently was clean at the time, or had no
connection with the party at the time. And they showed in a film how
the far right or an extremist movement could greatly damage a citizen
that was of value to the United States. That was the essence of the
film.
After the film there was discussion about the Civil Liberties and
about the film in general and about the movement in the South and the
integration movement and the talk concerning General Walker. The first
notice I made of Oswald is when he stood up and made a remark about
General Walker in reference to him not only being anti-Catholic but
anti-Semitic in regard to his comments about the Pope. Then he made
further comments that a night or two nights before he had been at the
General Walker meeting here in Dallas. That was my first real notice of
him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald said to the assembled group at that time that he
had been to a meeting 2 days prior at which General Walker was present?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I think it was 2 days prior.
Mr. LIEBELER. That meeting would have been just the night before Mr.
Stevenson came to Dallas?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; I think, or it could have been the same night.
I don't remember the exact date.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald say about General Walker?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That was it. That was his comment about Walker, and it
struck me at the time. I mean my ears perked up when he said Walker was
anti-Catholic in reference to his comments about the Pope. I can quote
that. That is exact. I am Catholic and I wanted to hear what he said.
He didn't say what General Walker had said.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate any hostility toward General Walker
either by words or by his deeds?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the time it seemed like Michael had commented to me
prior that the man was a Marxist, and I have never met anyone before
that I had known to be a Communist or a Marxist or Leninist or Red,
and I was interested mainly to see what the man looked like, how he
thought and what he felt. It seemed to me, in watching and listening
to him, that rather than being violently against General Walker, he
was stirring in dirty thoughts that you shouldn't like General Walker.
He didn't say General Walker is a bad guy. He just made comments that
General Walker is anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic, and he was spreading
a little seed of thought. That was the way it impressed me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't get the feeling that Oswald had any particular
violent thoughts towards General Walker?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I didn't at this time. I had no idea he was violent
until I heard on the radio he had shot the President.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody respond to Oswald's remarks about General
Walker?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. There were other people that discussed it, and then they
discussed the bad display the people from the far right had put on when
Mr. Stevenson was in Dallas, and it was regrettable that extremists
would act like that. But any exact comment about General Walker I
really don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything about this Stevenson affair?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I couldn't say. I don't really remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been at the meeting at which
Stevenson had had his difficulty?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No, sir; he didn't tell me that. He told me, I think
just me he had mentioned, if I remember exactly, he had mentioned to
Michael and said, "I was there," in reference to the meeting of the
General Walker group.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are the remarks that you have told us about, the only
remarks that Oswald made to the entire group that evening?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. The only ones I can remember and swear that I know was
the one in reference to General Walker not only being anti-Semitic but
anti-Catholic and in regard to his comment about the Pope.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald comment on the John Birch Society as well as
General Walker?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I know there was mention about him in the group. The
group commented on the John Birch Society, and I don't remember exactly
whether Oswald commented on them, too. I would like to be of help to
you, but I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just give us the best recollection you have.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is it so far.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did Oswald impress you when he stepped up and
addressed the group? Did he impress you as being articulate,
intelligent, or was he not that way?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At that particular time he just made the one statement.
After the meeting, I talked to him for about 15 minutes primarily about
economics.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was anyone there besides you and Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; there was a Mr. Byrd Helligas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he take part in the conversation with you and Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes; a little bit, to the best of my memory. Oswald was
the fellow that impressed me, and I was paying attention to what he was
saying, and I am afraid that Mr. Helligas didn't make an impression
on me. I don't remember what he said, except he did enter into the
conversation at different times. I am afraid most of my attention was
directed to Oswald. The hair was up on the back of my neck. I was
irritated by the man a little. Not real bad, but he bothered me some.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it what he said that bothered you, or was it his
attitude?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Attitude more than exactly what he said.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was his attitude?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, the attitude that I felt was that he was talking
down to me. I felt like he was. That he was better than I was, to a
certain degree, and he acted as if he had complete command of the
argument and was on top all the time. I felt that a couple of different
spots in the argument I had him practically beaten and he wouldn't
accept my argument. He turned his back and would go down a different
avenue.
Mr. LIEBELER. He figuratively turned his back?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir; that is it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Reconstruct for us, as best you can, at this point, the
discussion that you and Oswald had. Tell us as best you can recall what
he said and what you said and what the argument was about.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Well, after the meeting was over we went back to the
back where they had coffee. I believe they had doughnuts, I am not
sure, but they had a table of refreshments, at least, and I am sure
there was coffee. I wasn't interested in the coffee.
Michael, my wife, and Oswald, and I, walked to the back of the room
together. I approached Oswald and commented to him that Michael had
told me about his political background a little bit, and I understood
that he had been to Russia. I asked him what he felt communism had to
offer that was better than he could find in the United States. He kind
of shrugged his shoulders and didn't make any particular comment then.
I forget exactly the trend of talk at that particular moment, but as we
talked for just a couple of minutes, or at any rate as we talked, I
told him I had met his wife at the Paine's over in Irving and that he
had a beautiful little girl, he should be real proud of them. And he
commented, "They are nice." And that was to let it go at that.
I forget, or I do forget now about exactly what the next few comments
were. We did start talking about communism versus capitalism. He said
that in capitalism the employer exploits the worker. I asked him just
what he meant by exploiting. He said he takes a man's labors and makes
a profit from them without actually putting in any effort of his own.
I said that wasn't true. I considered myself to be a capitalist, or at
least to be a firm believer in the capitalistic system. At the present
time I had an employer and he paid me a fair salary and I was real glad
to work for him for the salary I got.
He commented that my employer was taking my efforts without putting in
any efforts and was reaping a profit from my efforts, and he wanted to
know if I thought that was fair or not?
And I said that I was happy. I am satisfied with what I have, and I
feel it is fair, and I used an analogy that in turn I am an employer.
I have two fellows who work for me building patterns for which I pay
them $3 an hour and they are tickled to get the $3 an hour. They are
real glad to get it. And that I make $4 an hour off of their efforts.
My profit is $1 an hour, and that I bought the machinery, I bought the
material. I have gone out and hunted up the work, and the $1 an hour
from each of those two fellows is my wage for going out and getting the
work, and my wage is comparable to my investment.
He said, you are exploiting labor. You are not doing any work. And he
commented then, well, that is all right for you. In your society it
is not a crime to exploit the worker. He didn't say, "to exploit the
worker." He said, "In your society it is not a crime." He was referring
to exploitation of the worker, supposedly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That is really about all I remember from the
conversation itself. Oh, wait a minute, we did talk about freedom.
I asked him what about the freedom in Russia. And he said, "Well,
they don't have as much actual freedom." I have forgotten what he
said exactly in reference to where they didn't have the freedom. We
were talking about actual civil liberties themselves in the United
States versus Russia. He said the United States by far has more civil
liberties.
I said, what do you think about the movement in the South in reference
to Mr. Kennedy? And he said he thinks that Kennedy is doing a real fine
job, a real good job, I have forgotten.
Mr. LIEBELER. So far as civil rights were concerned?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir. That was the only comment that was made in
reference to President Kennedy. I forget whether that was the only time
he expressed any emotion, and I have forgotten the exact words, he is
doing a real fine job, or very fine job. I can't remember exactly what
he said.
He impressed me as having a lot of big words, and my immediate
impression was he was fairly well read, but talking with Michael later
and recalling the conversation later, it was pointed out, Michael
brought it to my attention, and after I think about it I agree with
Michael, that he had available to him a lot of two-bit vocabulary
words, but not necessarily correctly used. This was a later impression,
but the immediate argument, I was interested in what he was saying
rather than how he was saying it and the way he had gone about saying
it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were particularly impressed, however, by the emphasis
that Oswald placed on his remark that President Kennedy was doing a
good job as far as civil rights were concerned?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. At the immediate time I wasn't particularly impressed.
After the President was murdered, I felt that there was at least an
emphasis of note, if not connected. I do remember him saying, him
placing emphasis on the way he said it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the impression you received of his attitude toward
President Kennedy was one of approval and one of favor?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I would say yes. I don't know about President Kennedy in
general, how he felt, but in reference to the civil rights issue, the
impression I had was that he was favorably impressed by Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald express his attitude toward any other
government official, during the course of his conversation with you?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really remember. I have heard Michael Paine
comment that Oswald had at one time written a letter and left it laying
around the house, and that his wife, Ruth, had found this letter. It
was in the typewriter. I can't remember exactly the details, but that
he had referred to the notorious FBI. Apparently he didn't care for the
FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael tell you that before or after the
assassination?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. It was after.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was after?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time of the assassination, however, you
had no feeling that Oswald had any particular hostility toward any
government official or toward the government in general? Would that be
a fair statement?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. I can't really say because I don't know the exact time
sequence. After a little time is passed, it is hard to pin it down.
Michael and I discussed the man at length after the assassination, and
we talked about him a whole lot, so I don't really know whether it was
before or after, but I now feel that he was very definitely against
all enforcement people in general, and I don't know exactly when this
impression came to me. But if I didn't already have this impression
beforehand, I certainly had it afterwards.
I do know that beforehand, that he didn't get along with his employers
and his fellow workers, or at least his employers, and he wasn't able
to keep a job, and he didn't have respect for his employers, and this
might possibly extend to law enforcement officials.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you feel that Oswald was, in general resentful of
authority? There was resentment of his employers?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. According to Michael, talking to him, we didn't talk
about specifics, it was strictly generalities. It was 15 minutes that I
talked to him, or 15 minutes or so that I talked to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is this meeting that you had with Oswald in the ACLU, the
only meeting you ever had with Oswald?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. That was the only time I saw him up until I saw him on
television.
Mr. LIEBELER. And your impressions are based upon your conversation
with him during that time at the ACLU meeting?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Based on that and what Michael and I have discussed in
reference to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the course of the conversation with Oswald at the ACLU
meeting, did he tell you that he was a Marxist?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes. It seems to me that I commented to him that, "You
are a Communist and I am a Capitalist," and I can't remember exactly
what it was, but he corrected me and he said, "I am a Marxist." When I
addressed him as a Communist, he said, "I am a Marxist."
Mr. LIEBELER. He corrected you then when you said he was a Communist
and indicated he was not a Communist?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what the difference was between those
theories?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No; I don't remember having asked him that.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't elaborate on that?
Mr. KRYSTINIK. No.