Mr. PAINE. Yes; over-controlling the stick, I was thinking of an
airplane.
Mr. LIEBELER. I thought you mentioned the clutch.
Mr. PAINE. Maybe it was the brake; did I mention the clutch?
Mr. LIEBELER. At any event she wasn't overly impressed with his ability
to manipulate the controls?
Mr. PAINE. She was impressed with how much a person has to learn when
they learn to drive a car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend Oswald any money?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever give him any?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your wife did?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe she gave Lee any money. She gave Marina
pocket money.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea of how much she gave Marina?
Mr. PAINE. Generally she would pay for things that Marina needed,
medicines and things like that. I think she also gave her pocket
money. It may have been five dollars a week or something like that. It
could have been ten dollars a week. I doubt if it would be that much.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any knowledge of Oswald spending any money
for bus fare from Dallas, between Dallas and Irving or anywhere else?
Mr. PAINE. He would come out and I suppose by bus to Irving. I do
remember that he came out a couple of times, and then wanted somebody
to pick him up there.
Mr. LIEBELER. At the bus station in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. At the bus station in Irving.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say it was just twice that he did that?
Mr. PAINE. I think that is about all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what the bus fare from Dallas to
Irving is?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't have any idea.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald spent any money for telephone
calls?
Mr. PAINE. I never saw Oswald spend any money.
Mr. LIEBELER. For anything, under any circumstances at any time?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. Of course, that shouldn't be--you construe that as you
please, but if you think it is penny-pinching it may be. But I saw him
at home and not in any position to spend money. He didn't have any
money jingling in his pockets that I recalled.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald owned any cameras?
Mr. PAINE. I wasn't aware of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever bought any records, musical
records?
Mr. PAINE. Well, they made some records for us, I thought they were
Marina's records. We played some records for them and they wanted to
play some for us or something, so they were records that were Russian
singing or something, I can't remember what it was. It was rather poor
fidelity so I didn't enjoy listening to them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Oswald received any periodicals or
mail at your address in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. The Daily Worker, or it is not the Daily Worker now but
the Worker, what is it called now?
Mr. LIEBELER. The Worker.
Mr. PAINE. Would come. Ruth said he received all his, The Militant
also there. I don't remember, recall, seeing The Militant there but
generally, I didn't see the mail very much. She would put my mail
apart, I had half my mail or more than half my mail would come to that
address, since I didn't feel the one at Grand Prairie was a permanent
address, so I didn't see most of the mail. She would separate my mail
into a separate pile and I would pick it up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about these
periodicals?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. He said in regard to, I think, the Worker or at
least it was the Worker he gave me to look at as the result of his
conversation, he told me if you knew how to read the thing and read
between the lines a little bit you could see what they wanted you to do.
Mr. LIEBELER. He said that?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did he say that?
Mr. PAINE. I think that was a week or two after he came, pretty soon
after coming back. I talked to him rather less and less as the weeks
rolled by.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him what he meant by that remark?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I certainly wish I had, no; I didn't. I took the issue
he gave me just to make my eye go over it. I thought to myself instead
here is a person who is pretty, well, out of it again if this is the
way he gets his communications from headquarters.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us everything that you can remember about that
conversation.
Mr. PAINE. That wasn't much of a conversation. It happened in an
afternoon. I am afraid I can't remember anything more about it. I
remember only the thoughts, I sort of smiled to myself when he said
this.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why?
Mr. PAINE. Thinking of the kind of person--what it said about him so
it suggested to me he wanted to be a party to something or a part of a
group that had objectives. In other words, he wanted to be an activist
of some sort. And he wasn't aware of--it seemed somewhat childish to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why do you say that?
Mr. PAINE. Well, it would have seemed more competent to have more
explicit communication clandestine, if it would have to be clandestine.
And if you had more explicit communication of some sort you wouldn't
mention receiving your directions from the newspaper, reading between
the lines of a newspaper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever say anything to you that would indicate that
he had ever received more explicit instructions from anybody regarding
any subject in the political field?
Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't, and it was these various--there weren't many
occasions. Another time at the ACLU, in this talk that he had with
Frank or this argument that he had with Frank and a third person on the
way home he asked me if I knew that third person and whether I thought
he was a Communist, and he said he thought he was a Communist, Lee
thought the third person was a Communist, and he gave me some reason
and I think it had to do with a receptivity to some words spoken about
Castro. And I thought that was such a feeble reason or explanation of a
Communist that again I thought to myself he must be out of it if that
is the way he has to find his fellow travelers.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you use the expression "out of it" do you mean to
convey the idea that he was not closely associated with any Communist
group or he just had a very tenuous grip on reality?
Mr. PAINE. No; I mean in this case he was not associated with a cell
or a Communist group. This I didn't know. That was the impression and
thought in the back of my mind from the things he had said.
Mr. LIEBELER. When he made this remark about the person at the ACLU
meeting being a Communist how was the remark made, did he seem to
indicate to you some desire to reach out and to know this person, to
meet this person, to associate with him or was he just making a general
remark or were you thinking in the perjurative sense, how did he speak,
what impression did he give you?
Mr. PAINE. I had the impression that he hoped he would be a Communist
and he would like to meet him again, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice the person, this third person?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he an elderly person?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Reverend Helligas?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was not him?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe Oswald speak with Reverend Helligas that
evening at the meeting?
Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever learned the identity of this third person?
Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him again?
Mr. PAINE. I think that is the last ACLU meeting I have been to. They
convene very infrequently.
Mr. LIEBELER. By that do you mean you have not seen this person again?
Mr. PAINE. Therefore, I have not seen him again. I expect he is a
registered member of the ACLU. I had the impression he was an ACLU
member. He is rather softspoken, a quiet man.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize him again if you saw him?
Mr. PAINE. I probably would.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed him with anybody else in the ACLU?
Mr. PAINE. I joined Frank to the ACLU now.
Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed him with Frank?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is Frank Krystinik.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you attempted to identify this third person?
Mr. PAINE. No; I never, I have not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Oswald to give Marina any money during
the time that Marina lived at your house?
Mr. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. When Oswald stayed at your home in Irving on the
weekends, did he eat all of his meals there?
Mr. PAINE. I came only for Friday's supper and would leave and would
sometimes be there on Sunday. Therefore, I couldn't be--I was not in a
position to say. I think he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever made any contribution in
respect to those meals?
Mr. PAINE. Oh, no, he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he make any contribution to any of the other expenses
of the household?
Mr. PAINE. No, he didn't. I for one didn't expect him to. I didn't--I
would have been surprised had he done so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he packed lunch in the morning when
he left for work and took it with him or ate breakfast there before he
left?
Mr. PAINE. He would eat breakfast there. This again was just what Ruth
has told me, he would eat a breakfast consisting of coffee and maybe a
piece of toast. I forget what it is. I don't believe he packed a lunch.
Mr. LIEBELER. You do believe?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't believe.
Mr. PAINE. I don't know of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever discuss finances with you or in your
presence?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I raised the problem when he obtained the job at the
Book Depository Building, I mentioned that one and a quarter, I wanted
to confirm at one and a quarter, and I did somehow.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you want to confirm that?
Mr. PAINE. It seemed to me that is still a pretty slim pickings to
live on, also I was concerned about how long the job might last, and I
inquired, therefore, about the number of people working there and how
come he was employed after all after the school year began so if he
was employed then it was possible that it was a full year occupation.
I would have normally expected the rush of employment to be prior to
the school year. And then to lay off after the books had been sent. I
was concerned in other words that he should be able to keep his job,
but also I would have preferred had it been a little bit more money he
would be a happier person.
Mr. LIEBELER. That later part is your own surmise?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; but it is my own experience.
Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. He was pleased to get the job, and I avoided talking too
directly about the possibility of his losing that job because I felt it
was, he would be concerned about the same matter, and now perhaps I was
projecting but I do remember not asking as many questions about that as
were in my mind just because I didn't want to arouse the anxiety that
he must feel in regard to the job.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you that he felt that the FBI was
responsible for his not being able to obtain a job?
Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate that he thought the FBI was
responsible for his losing a job?
Mr. PAINE. No; he never mentioned losing a job with me. I surmised
from the first time I met him, he was at the Neely Street address, and
Marina was packing, took about half an hour to leave and Marina was
packing things for Junie. And so he and I sat on the sofa and talked.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is before he went to New Orleans?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And they were packing to go to New Orleans?
Mr. PAINE. No, no; packing to come over to our house for dinner.
Mr. LIEBELER. I see.
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you met him?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?
Mr. PAINE. And there he mentioned how he didn't have people at work,
people who talked about this subject of politics and economics and he
also mentioned with some bitterness how his employer made more money
than he did and the things that his employer had that he did not have.
It was the only time I observed personal animosity, and I thought to
myself, he must be rather difficult, that animosity or resentment must
show through to his employer.
This was just in what he said. It struck me that these things must
happen. When he later lost his job, I don't know whether it was later
or not but he may have lost the job already, I didn't realize it,
I thought he was still employed there. These seemed to me adequate
reasons, sub rosa reasons for his dismissal.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any indication from anyone that he felt the
FBI was in any way responsible for his losing his job?
Mr. PAINE. He never mentioned the FBI to me. And I never talked with
anyone else who knew him except Ruth. Ruth did, of course indicate,
told me of his extreme allergy to the FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. But she didn't indicate that he felt that they had caused
him to lose jobs?
Mr. PAINE. I think she mentioned this, she asked me not to mention this
to other people but I guess you are not just other people. She read
this note which he had left on her desk, I had the impression it was
a couple of days; actually it was only a day or so. He had written,
typed it but had written a rough draft which he left on her desk; she
gave the note, her copy of it, perhaps, she copied it for me to read. I
didn't really absorb it, I did read it, and I did read he spoke of the
notorious FBI.
Ruth cited the letter to me as an example of how he could lie. She
hadn't been aware of his lying before. She thought his trip to Mexico,
which he mentioned his trip to Mexico in his letter hadn't been true
and it was a fabrication, but it was, we talked, therefore, a little
bit about his--also, I think----
Mr. LIEBELER. His feeling about the FBI?
Mr. PAINE. We talked a little bit about his abuse of the FBI there. And
also I think it was mentioned that, Ruth mentioned to me that, the FBI
had been out once or twice or had reported this to me, and that Lee
seemed to resent that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to this letter, when did Ruth first show
you this letter, and I take it you are referring to a draft of a letter
from Oswald to the Russian Embassy?
Mr. PAINE. I didn't know who it was written to.
Mr. LIEBELER. But the letter referred to the notorious FBI?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I don't think it was the Russian Embassy. I thought it
was a friend to whom he was speaking in a rather braggart way of what
he had done. He had gone down to the Cuban Consulate in Mexico, and
they had, I think this is the letter, I could be mixed up, and that
they had not given him a visa--actually, I had made a mistake in the
heading because I thought--it said, "Dear Sirs," but I though it said,
"Dear Lisa." Ruth told me it had said, "Dear Sirs."
Mr. LIEBELER. This was in Russian or in English?
Mr. PAINE. She must have shown me the letter in his hand, therefore,
yes. I thought it was "Dear Lisa," English.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did she show you this letter?
Mr. PAINE. This is a confusing matter, because I was reading some other
magazine at the time, and she intruded this thing on my attention, and
I didn't really shift attention too well.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it before the assassination or afterwards?
Mr. PAINE. It was before, yes. No; afterwards, I would have paid close
attention to it. Since recently, I have, Ruth has, figured out that it
must have been, he must have started writing on Friday or something and
she cleaned up or removed the desk, it was that time when we moved the
furniture. It had been written just prior to that, and we did that on a
Sunday night. Maybe she preserved his original draft, I don't remember
what happened, because I would have guessed that in order to misread
the "Dear Sirs" for "Dear Lisa," I would have seen it, I would have
read it correctly in her hand.
Mr. LIEBELER. Recapitulate for me, if you can, the number of times and
the dates on which you saw Oswald after he returned from New Orleans up
until the time of the assassination. You said you saw him, I believe
shortly after he returned from wherever he had been.
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that was around October 4, was it not?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The first part of October. When was the next time you saw
him?
Mr. PAINE. I think I probably saw him on each weekend except the one
preceding the assassination. There were at least one or two, I think
there were two before he had a job and then he had a job and a birthday
party.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been October 18, would it not,
approximately, when he had a birthday party or represented to you that
his birthday was October 18?