Mr. LIEBELER. Before you get back to the lab let me ask you this, who
was with you at the first time you heard the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. Dave Noel.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Mr. Krystinik with you?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear during this first period of time when you
first heard of the assassination, that the President had been shot near
the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so. I think, I heard that he had been shot,
I listened over some of the crowd's shoulders, a little cluster of
people listening to a transistor radio thereby knowing it was no joke,
so we went back to the lab where there is a radio. So I didn't hear it
until I got back to the lab. As soon as I got back to the lab it was
not very long after that that it was mentioned, that the Texas School
Book Depository Building was mentioned, and then I mentioned to Frank
Krystinik that is where Lee worked, and then in the course of the next
half hour Frank and I were discussing whether to report to the FBI that
Lee worked there, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what you said and what he said.
Mr. PAINE. He was urging me to do it, and or asking whether I didn't
think we should do it, and I was torn but I came up with the decision
no, the FBI already knows he works there. Everybody will be jumping
on him because he is a black sheep, and I didn't want to join the
hysterical mob in his harassment. So I decided I wouldn't call, I
didn't say that I couldn't but I said I wasn't going to call the FBI on
it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you told him that?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I think he accepted it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you at that time that Oswald had in fact
had anything to do with the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, of course, it did, I am sure it made by heart leap to
hear that building mentioned. But I thought--I didn't see how it helped
the causes that he presumably was concerned about, so I thought it
unlikely on that account alone.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was capable of doing that at that time?
Mr. PAINE. We heard or somewhere I read or heard a report, and an eye
witness, presumably eye witness, report saying the man who was shooting
the President took his good old time or, in other words, fired with
deliberateness. This seemed in character.
Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. With Oswald, yes. I don't think he was a person with
compassion, or--the only reason I didn't think he was because I didn't
see how it fitted in with his philosophy or how it was going to forward
his causes, not because it seemed--not because it was not possible to
his nature or his character.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you call Ruth after you learned of the assassination
and prior to the time that you heard Oswald----
Mr. PAINE. Yes, I did call her.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say and what did she say?
Mr. PAINE. We said very little. That must have been, I guess I called
her immediately getting back to the lab, so she would be watching and
listening and getting clued in to the news, start watching the news.
That must have also been before the Texas Book Depository Building was
mentioned because I would have mentioned that I didn't. I just--we said
almost nothing except----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to her after you learned that the TSBD was
involved, but before you learned that Oswald was suspected of being
involved?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't believe I called her again.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently learn that Oswald had been arrested?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. As soon as I heard his name mentioned, then I went
home. His name, of course, was mentioned not in connection with the
Texas Book Depository Building but simply as a person caught in the
theatre. But that was enough connection for me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because you knew he did work at the TSBD?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, of course, Frank and I were having this heart-wrenching
discussion about the right thing to do. And justification for my
action was based on the thought that he was probably not the one and,
therefore, it was a cruelty to be adding to the harassment that he
would inevitably encounter because anyone who knew him for very long
surely knew his views. That is he would, he would be a black sheep in
any crowd of Americans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the question of this paper. Do you have
any recollection of ever seeing any paper like either one of these two
samples in front of you, 142 and 364, in or about your place in Irving,
Tex.?
And in connection with this question consider also the gummed wrapping
tape with which the packages are reconstructed?
Mr. PAINE. We have a roll of gummed wrapping paper at home but this is
3 inches wide and we have 2-inch wide. Do you have a ruler here? Yes,
this is 3-inch tape.
Now I don't remember for certain what the tape is we had at home, but I
had the impression it was a 2-inch tape.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection that the authorities
inquired about this question before?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't recall that question at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have that tape?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, we do.
Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to have you make sure that it doesn't get
lost when we come down to Dallas within the next week or two. We will
ask you some more questions about it.
Mr. PAINE. All right. Do you want me to make a note of it?
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, I will ask you if you would, when you return to
Irving, if you would take a sample of that tape and mail it to me at
the Commission so that between now and the time I come to Texas the FBI
will have an opportunity to examine it and compare it with the tape
which has been used in making bags. Do you recall whether that tape was
at your premises on November 22?
Mr. PAINE. I think so. It has been there for quite a long time. That is
presumably. I don't think it has been used up. I was using it fairly
recently. I didn't use much so it would still be there, and I think it
had been a big roll and now it is a small roll. We don't use much.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was it located on the 22d of November, do you
remember?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; there is a drawer which it is possible he knew of.
The desk--I think he helped us move the furniture around at that time
the desk was moved to its present position, which is right beside the
garage door. There is a kitchen-dining area and from that the door
leads into the garage and it is right beside that door in the bottom
drawer.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about the paper. Do you think that there is any
possibility that Oswald could have gotten the paper from which he
presumably made this bag at your place?
Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't recognize that paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 142?
Mr. PAINE. Or as I say, this looks more common or cheaper grade of
paper.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 364.
Mr. PAINE. And I don't remember paper of either kind, of course, in the
garage itself.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of the authorities inquiring
about the presence or absence of paper like this at your place?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions about any questions which
the FBI or the other authorities may have asked your wife about this
question?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember anything on it. One way or the other about
that.
Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection the subject has never
been mentioned between yourself and your wife?
Mr. PAINE. I am certain that I have never discussed tape with anyone.
I did know it was reported in the paper that Lee went to work that
morning with something wrapped in brown paper, curtain rods, I guess he
did call it. Whether we, had some discussion or I think it is--we may
have had some discussion. I just don't remember the burden of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have a list of names of people who I think lived in the
Dallas and Fort Worth area and I want to ask you whether you know them
or whether their names are familiar to you. Mr. and Mrs. Peter Gregory?
Mr. PAINE. The name has been mentioned. Ruth, I think. Russian speaking
people, Ruth has mentioned the name.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never met them?
Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what Ruth told you about
them?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe she had met them either. No, I don't recall
what she said about them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had called Mr. Peter Gregory
in connection with some work she wanted to do in the Russian language,
subsequent to the assassination?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the context in which she mentioned Peter
Gregory's name.
Mr. LIEBELER. Max Clark.
Mr. PAINE. That is an unfamiliar name.
Mr. LIEBELER. Gali Clark?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't know that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Elena Hall, Mrs. John Hall?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't remember that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. George Bouhe?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Anna Meller?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Anna Ray?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that is Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. PAINE. It was, the name there is familiar. I don't believe I have
met them. They were friends of Everett Glover and then Everett Glover
moved to their house later.
Mr. LIEBELER. Moved into De Mohrenschildt's house?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; they were, they had been in Haiti for a while, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Glover tell you that?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never met De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. PAINE. I have--Everett gave some parties to which we went, it is
possible that I--for practical purposes I had not met them.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know anything about them?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever speak of them?
Mr. PAINE. I think he did, yes, yes; he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said?
Mr. PAINE. I remember, I don't remember what he said about them. I
was--it is possibly because he said the name twice and I didn't catch
it until after the second time he had spoken of it or it didn't ring
a bell, De Mohrenschildt didn't ring a bell, or he didn't pronounce
it with such clarity or something. So it didn't really register and I
didn't connect it up with whatever he was saying at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Gary and Alexandra Taylor?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tatiana Biggers?
Mr. PAINE. Everett had--Biggers doesn't sound like the right name. At
one time Everett was--had a ballet dancer that had some kind of a name
like that. He introduced me to a--I think we met at a theater and he
introduced me to some--let's say no; I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. The name previously mentioned, Mr. Everett Glover, is he
a close friend of yours?
Mr. PAINE. We have known him a long time since we have been in Dallas.
We met the Glovers at madrigal singing, we liked to sing madrigals, and
he was part of the group and his wife used to sing at the Unitarian
Church in the choir where I sing, and they were separated two years ago
probably and I have seen him only occasionally when he would go to the
madrigals and once I went skating with him. Occasionally we have met
also at the theater center. He has been there also. Occasionally also
I have stopped by--there is a--he showed up once or twice at a single
adult party dance of the Unitarian Church.
Mr. LIEBELER. He doesn't work with Bell Helicopter, does he?
Mr. PAINE. No; he works for an oil company, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. He is a geologist?
Mr. PAINE. He may be something of that sort.
Mr. LIEBELER. Richard Pierce?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; he lived with Everett Glover.
Mr. LIEBELER. How well do you know him?
Mr. PAINE. I know him much less than Everett. When we visited Everett's
house for a sing or something, I think I would meet him, and he also
would come to these single adult parties--but I don't know----
Mr. LIEBELER. What about Mr. and Mrs. Norman Fredricksen?
Mr. PAINE. That name doesn't ring a bell either.
Mr. LIEBELER. Volkmar Schmidt?
Mr. PAINE. He is in that same category with Mr. Pierce living with
Everett and occasionally showing up at the stag parties.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?
Mr. PAINE. I don't think I know Ray.
Mr. LIEBELER. Ilya Mamantov?
Mr. PAINE. I suppose that is Mr. Mamantov whom I recognize by sight but
I may have shaken his hand.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you have occasion to recognize him by sight?
Mr. PAINE. Well, he is the son-in-law, if Ilya is the right name--I
don't know, I know him as Mr. Mamantov, Ruth's tutor, I have forgotten
his name at this time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Dorothy Gravitis?
Mr. PAINE. That is right. And I have seen him around SMU and he was an
interpreter at the police station.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anybody by the name of Harten?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Warner Kloepfer?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has Ruth ever spoken to you of the Kloepfers?
Mr. PAINE. Not that I can recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. My understanding is they lived there in New Orleans.
Mr. PAINE. Oh, then I don't know them. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Charles Edward Harris?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Florence McDonald?
Mr. PAINE. I know Elizabeth MacDonald, I think it is.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who is she?
Mr. PAINE. She was a friend of--she would come to these madrigal
groups and I think she a a friend of either of Everett or of Pierce or
something like that. It was in connection with the madrigal sings and I
think they were the ones who brought them into circulation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Col. J. D. Wilmeth?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't know him. A colleague at work lives nearby who
shares a well with him and keeps it repaired.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who does?
Mr. PAINE. Clark Benham, another colleague at work, uses the water from
Colonel Wilmeth's well and has to keep the well operating so I hear
stories about Mr. Wilmeth and he lives with his old, ancient mother. I
haven't met him myself, I don't believe.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that--did you mention that he called you at
your office at one time?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think he has, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of that event?
Mr. PAINE. Well, he wanted to see Marina, I think, he wanted to hear, I
think he said he wanted to hear the native tongue spoken or spoken by
a native. And so he was quite eager to meet both Ruth and Marina and
called me to ask how and when and what not. So, he may have called me
more than once on that subject.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea why he called you at work? In order
to contact these women?
Mr. PAINE. It seemed very appropriate. Maybe Clark, Clark, of course,
sees him quite frequently, and maybe Clark told him that Marina was
living with us. I cannot--I could be clued in. I remember at the time
there was a reason for it. I mean it seemed appropriate, it wasn't out
of the blue, but I can't--unless it was that I had been talking about
Marina with Clark and then Clark told it to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never have met Colonel Wilmeth?
Mr. PAINE. I don't believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth ever tell you that Colonel Wilmeth had come to
call on her and Marina?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; that call or one or two calls he made to the lab to me
was asking me if I would make it possible for him to meet them and so I
told Ruth, and either Ruth called or I told her that he was, he would
like to come on the weekend or something or he would call, I forget,
but anyway I was a go-between to help in a polite way to meet Ruth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth tell you about the meeting when he came?
Mr. PAINE. She did; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about it.
Mr. PAINE. I think she said she had a good time, I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any of the details of what she said?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember the details; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Clifton M.
Shasteen?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. He is a barber in Irving, Tex.
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you ordinarily get your hair cut in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. I used to get my hair cut, and I don't think that is the
name of the person or where it used to be done but for the year that I
was living in Grand Prairie, I found a barber I liked better over there
and I had it done over there all the time, almost all the time. I guess
I haven't in months. I had another barber down in Irving and got a bad
haircut.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much does a haircut cost in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. I think more frequently it is a dollar fifty; when I get it
over in Grand Prairie it is a dollar and a quarter.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there a standard price so far as you know for barber
shops in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. I would suppose a dollar and fifty was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Oswald to associate with any young
boys? There has been a report that he was seen in the presence of, in
the company of a 14-year-old boy. Do you know of anyone fitting that
description?
Mr. PAINE. I don't know of anyone with whom he associated. I didn't--I
was aware of not asking him how he spent his free time.
Mr. LIEBELER. There has also been a report from Mr. Leonard Edwin
Hutchinson who apparently runs Hutch's Supermarket in Irving that
Oswald came in there on a certain day and asked to cash a two-party
check for $189. Have you ever heard anything about that?
Mr. PAINE. No; I haven't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Hutchison?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know, are you familiar with Hutch's Market,
Supermarket?
Mr. PAINE. I am trying to think of the name of the market that is on
Storey Road, not Storey, Shady Lane--Shady Grove Road or Lane, that is,
if he isn't on that address then I don't know where it is.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever take Oswald to any supermarket?
Mr. PAINE. I didn't; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever use your automobile?
Mr. PAINE. Not to my knowledge. Presumably he couldn't drive. He
couldn't have used my automobile very well because I don't believe he
knew where my second key was, and I would always have the key.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of an automobile do you own?
Mr. PAINE. It is a French Citroen.
Mr. LIEBELER. What model?
Mr. PAINE. 1959; year 1959.
Mr. LIEBELER. Not a 2CV?
Mr. PAINE. No; it is an ID-19, I guess.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only automobile that you own?
Mr. PAINE. While they were here I bought a second automobile; an Olds,
'55 or '56 Oldsmobile, '56, I believe.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was this?
Mr. PAINE. During the time, sometime between September and November, I
bought a secondhand '56 Oldsmobile.
Mr. LIEBELER. For your own personal use?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you then had two cars?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Ruth has a station wagon, doesn't she?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that is her own car?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only automobile that she owns?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What model is that?
Mr. PAINE. '55.
Mr. LIEBELER. Chevrolet station wagon?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald used that?
Mr. PAINE. Ruth took Oswald to practice driving in a parking lot.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you about that?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you?
Mr. PAINE. I can't remember whether she has told me so much more since
November 22 and I can't remember whether she may have said before that.
She was telling me how he was persistent, diligent in trying to learn,
not very particularly skilled, and apparently quite pleased at the
whole process. He was grateful to her and one of the nicest kinds of
communication she had with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say anything about his ability to drive a car?
Mr. PAINE. She thought it was pretty crude. He was having trouble
operating the clutch, and over-controlling the stick, or the steering
wheel. Those are my words. She didn't use "over-controlling" but put it
in some other way.
Mr. LIEBELER. The station wagon has a straight transmission.
Mr. PAINE. No; it is an automatic transmission, power brakes.