Mr. PAINE. I will say it again. I think Ruth reported at that time, or
this is a recollection I have of a report that Ruth made and I think it
was at that time, that Marina said she couldn't identify this rifle.
She knew that Oswald had a rifle, and she knew that it was in a package
wrapped in the blanket in the garage, but that she had only seen it
accidentally when she had discovered what it was accidentally when
she had looked in the corner of the package and saw the butt end of a
rifle but she didn't like rifles, made her nervous or something to that
effect so she didn't look at the whole rifle.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ruth tell you anything that Marina Oswald said about
the presence or absence of a telescopic sight on the rifle at that
interview with the Dallas police?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember anything that she may have said about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite clear that your wife told you that
Marina had said that she could not identify the rifle that was shown to
her as being the rifle that was owned by Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I want to draw your attention specifically to a
sling or a device that serves the purpose of sling on this rifle, which
is Commission Exhibit 139, and ask you if you have ever seen anything
like that before?
Mr. PAINE. I am taking your question to mean did I see it on the rifle,
a sling on the rifle I saw that was shown to Marina? I don't think I
can truthfully remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. I also want you to consider whether you have ever seen a
device----
Mr. PAINE. No; I have never seen a sling built like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen any device that looks like this at all
whether it was designed for a rifle or for any other purpose? Do you
have any idea what this might be?
Mr. PAINE. No; I don't recognize it. I have never seen it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember ever having seen anything like this
around your own house or garage in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, we have here the parts of a rifle which is similar
to the Commission Exhibit 139, and I will lay these on the blanket, and
I will ask the reporter to indicate on the record that the counterpart
rifle has been identified by FBI No. C-250. I want to ask you, Mr.
Paine, to try to wrap this in the package, the broken down rifle and
see if that works out any better or any worse than the attempt we made
to wrap the complete rifle.
Mr. PAINE. I guess all that happened was I lifted up the thing in the
same fashion. I don't think that is going to help the problem. It makes
the package a little bit shorter but that other package--I wouldn't
have got the sense of pipe.
Mr. LIEBELER. The witness indicates that because of the stock and the
rifle barrel are separate when the rifle is broken down, it seems
natural, does it not, Mr. Paine, to place the barrel and action of the
rifle directly over the top of the stock when wrapping it this way?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you do that, you would not have the sense of grasping
the muzzle of the rifle or of a pipe when you picked up the package?
Mr. PAINE. And this, putting the barrel below the stock, doesn't leave,
offset the package in the way that gave me the problem with the folding
shovel in there. The symmetrical shovel if I wrapped that in some
fashion. Also it mustn't rattle. He is going to have to tie it firmly
with string not to have it as monolithic or solid as it had been. The
barrel, I must have just felt the barrel, I felt a pipe, and the barrel
had to be sticking out beyond the stock.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think that because the barrel of the rifle had to be
sticking out behind the stock and because when the rifle is placed in
the package in two different pieces, it is difficult to tie it tightly
enough to keep it from rattling and you would infer that the rifle was
put together when it was in the package in your garage, assuming that
there was a rifle in the package in the garage? Did you ever tell the
FBI that you were sure in the light of recent events that you were sure
it was a rifle in the package?
Mr. PAINE. I told the FBI the description or the suggestion of a rifle
as the object brought together these loose pieces or loose concepts on
the offset bulk which was the butt end, and the pipe, the 30-inch pipe
I drew in the picture, so it made sense. The picture jelled when the
rifle was suggested as an object.
Mr. LIEBELER. And so you concluded that it was likely that there was,
in fact, a rifle in the package?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; I thought that was so.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit 364, which is a replica of
a paper sack or package which was found in the School Book Depository,
after the assassination. I point out to you that Commission 364
is merely a replica of the actual sack that was found. The actual
sack that was found is Commission Exhibit 142, and it has now been
discolored because it has been treated by the FBI for fingerprints.
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But there is a part of the package that has not been
treated, and I ask you if that part of 142 that has not been treated
is similar to Commission Exhibit 364 as far as color and texture are
concerned. I want you to examine both of these pieces of paper in any
event.
Mr. PAINE. Well, it looks to me as if 364 is a more usual kind of
paper, the difference is pretty slight.
Mr. LIEBELER. You do not notice a difference between the two papers,
however?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; is seems to me that is unusually crisp; yes, I would
say there is a difference.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you note that the difference is, 142 is more crisp
than 364?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. It seems to me this is the kind of paper, it seems to
me this is more common.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 364?
Mr. PAINE. 364, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that is a more commonly observed type of
paper?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; that is an unusual paper. You don't find paper bags
made of that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to 142. Now, examine, after examining both 142
and 364, did you have any paper of that type as far as you know in your
garage or at your home in Irving?
Mr. PAINE. Well, most of the things that are paper have been added to
the garage since I moved out, so I am not very familiar with them.
We stored some rugs in, I think, in polyethylene, but I am not sure
all of them were in polyethylene, and there were some curtain rods or
something like that which are still there. I don't know how they came.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of curtain rods?