Mr. PAINE. I think I assumed that, I think, because this line along the
top of the package was not straight enough to be the tube I have drawn
there. I should say, in other words, either the bulk of the package as
well as the out in the middle or there could have been a sight there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI or any other investigatory agency of the
Government ever show you a picture of the rifle that was supposed to
have been used to assassinate the President?
Mr. PAINE. They asked me at first, the first night of the assassination
if I could locate, identify the place where Lee was standing when he
was holding this rifle and some, the picture on the cover of Life.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to?
Mr. PAINE. I identified the place by the fine clapboard structure of
the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. By the what?
Mr. PAINE. By the small clapboard structure, the house has an unusually
small clapboard.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you identify the place as being?
Mr. PAINE. The Neely Street address. He didn't drive a car, so to have
them over for dinner I had to go over and pick them up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell the FBI that at first you felt if the
object was a gun in the package it did not have a scope on it, but
after seeing pictures of the gun and noting the small size of the scope
on the weapon used to assassinate the President that the object you
lifted could have been a rifle with the scope mounted on it?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember saying that; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by FBI agents Odum and
Peggs on November 24, 1963?
Mr. PAINE. Well, of course, I have seen Bob Odum frequently. Peggs is
an unfamiliar name. It doesn't mean he couldn't have been there. That
night I mostly went into the police station, spent much of it at the
police station.
Mr. LIEBELER. On November 24?
Mr. PAINE. Is that a Sunday night or Monday?
Mr. LIEBELER. Sunday, the 24th would be a Sunday.
Mr. PAINE. I am too confused. Maybe it was on the next night that I
spent at the police station.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let's go back and tell us about as best as you can
recall how many times did the FBI interview you starting with the day
of the assassination, the 22d of November. Did the FBI interview you on
that day?
Mr. PAINE. There was someone at the police station, first the police
took us to the station and asked us questions and we filled out an
affidavit right in there.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is the Dallas Police Station?
Mr. PAINE. The Dallas police, and after they were finished someone from
the FBI, I believe, asked me some questions. It was almost as though he
had no--by leave of the police that he could do this.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of that agent?
Mr. PAINE. Now, I don't believe I met, I was introduced to, Odum prior
to the 22d. I do not remember that man, and it is possible that--I
don't think it was Odum, but I wouldn't recall that out and I do not
remember the name of that man. I don't know what he looks like.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you interviewed by the FBI on Saturday, November 23?
Mr. PAINE. I am not going to be able to remember when I was interviewed
without being able to have something to hang it on. There were news
reporters. First the news reporters were more in evidence, and then the
police came out again, and both of them stick in my mind more because
they are more objectionable. I mean there is more----
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the
name of Richard E. Harrison as an FBI agent who interviewed you on
November 22, 1963, at the Dallas police station?
Mr. PAINE. No. I don't remember the name.
Mr. LIEBELER. Reconstruct for us the events of Saturday, November 23 as
best you can. And perhaps I can help you if I ask you first, did you
stay in your apartment in Grand Prairie the night of the assassination,
the night of the 22d?
Mr. PAINE. No, I don't think so. No, we had a late supper there. Life
reporters were there, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. At Irving?
Mr. PAINE. At Irving, and then they came again early next morning and I
was there with the family in the morning so I must have been there at
night.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the Life reporters came on Saturday morning again?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The 23d. What happened, how long did they stay and what
happened after they left?
Mr. PAINE. Well, they left quite early, I think, it might have been 9
o'clock, relatively speaking, 9 or 9:30, talking to Marina Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after they left?
Mr. PAINE. I don't remember. I think I went over to the Irving
apartment, I mean the Grand Prairie apartment, at some time during the
day, I don't remember what for. I had in mind, there was something I
was trying to do, I can't remember now what it was, I mean something I
would have been doing on the weekend. So, between, let's say, they left
at 9:30, and about 5 o'clock, I don't remember what happened.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go to your place of business at any time, to the
Bell Helicopter plant on that day?
Mr. PAINE. Well, my apartment was close by it. I think somebody has
asked me this question before and I think at the time I said no, and I
don't remember now, that is my closest memory to that occasion.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection is that you did not go to the
helicopter plant?
Mr. PAINE. My recollection now is now fuzzier than ever but I recall
previously I thought about it and I said, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go to the police station in Dallas on Saturday?
Mr. PAINE. Yes. I recall the FBI came, not the FBI, the Dallas police
came and took me in their car. We went back via Grand Prairie which was
out of the way and the sun was about setting so that was about 5:30.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you come back to Irving after you left the Dallas
Police Department?
Mr. PAINE. Yes, probably 8 or 9 at night.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay at Irving that evening?
Mr. PAINE. I think I probably stayed Saturday evening and went back,
spent Sunday evening in Grand Prairie so I could get to work easily the
next morning.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to your wife on the telephone on
Saturday, November 23?
Mr. PAINE. I may have called her from the police station or something
like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to unwrap the package with the rifle which was
wrapped in the blanket, and I want to ask you if you had ever seen this
rifle, Commission Exhibit 139, before?
Mr. PAINE. Not to my--the first time I saw a rifle, I didn't realize
that he had a rifle. I thought, I knew he liked rifles because he
spoke fondly of them in the Soviet Union although he regretted that he
couldn't own a rifle, and I supposed that he still didn't have one so I
didn't see a rifle until the night of the 22d when Marina was shown a
rifle in an adjoining cubicle glass between us.
Mr. LIEBELER. You observed through the glass a rifle being shown to
Marina Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any of the questions being asked her at that
time?
Mr. PAINE. No; I couldn't hear.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife see this rifle being shown to Marina Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. She was in the room with her.
Mr. LIEBELER. She was in the room with Marina Oswald?
Mr. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, after Marina Oswald was shown this rifle, did your
wife tell you anything about the questions that were asked of Marina
Oswald at that time?
Mr. PAINE. Yes; she said Marina couldn't, wasn't able to, identify
the rifle. I can't remember now whether she said she knew it was a
rifle because she had looked in and seen the butt end of a rifle but
didn't--I think this is what she said at the time but----