Mr. JENNER. Well, at the instant of time they came, had you noticed
them coming?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I had not.
Mr. JENNER. You say you could not have seen them because, I take it
[at this time Counsel Jenner with the assistance of the witness, Mrs.
Paine, drew the living room drapes so that they no longer covered
the living room windows]--because they approached the house from the
driveway side, which is on the west?
Mrs. PAINE. Right, and as I recall, both of the cars that came in were
parked to the west of my driveway.
Mr. JENNER. So, they would have come at an angle, which assuming the
door was closed----
Mrs. PAINE. As it was.
Mr. JENNER. The door opening onto Fifth Street?
Mrs. PAINE. The door was closed.
Mr. JENNER. May the record show, and I will ask Mr. Howlett if he
agrees, that under those circumstances, with the officers approaching
from the west, that the ladies sitting on the sofa or couch could not
have seen them as they approached from the west?
Agent HOWLETT. No.
Mr. JENNER. So, the first time, I gather you were aware that the police
had arrived or come, was when the doorbell rang or they knocked on the
door?
Mrs. PAINE. The bell rang and I was first aware of them when I opened
the door.
Mr. JENNER. Now, we will get you, Odell, to come in here.
(At this point the reporter proceeded to the point designated by
Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. I will proceed to describe here your lawn and if you,
John Joe, will come out and check me on it and will you stand in the
doorway, Mrs. Paine, and would you check me, Mrs. Paine, as I recite
these facts?
Mrs. PAINE. All right.
(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned assumed the places
designated by Counsel Jenner.)
Mr. JENNER. That your home is well set back, we'll measure it in a
moment, from the street, and it is a rather generous lawn with some
bushes, the bushes are not solid as a screen, but they are up close
to your home. The lawn area is entirely open except for the oak tree
which I have heretofore described as being as a large generous shade
tree about 2 feet in diameter. We will measure the circumference in a
moment. John Joe, could we measure the distance from the south wall of
the home to the sidewalk?
Agent HOWLETT. There is no sidewalk--there is a curb.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; there is.
Agent HOWLETT. 42 feet.
Mr. JENNER. Will you come in, John, and recite in the presence of the
reporter what that distance is?
The REPORTER. I have it in the record from his statement--42 feet.
Mr. JENNER. There is a roof or canopy over the porch entrance, the
depth of which from the south wall to the south edge of the roof area
is what, Mr. Howlett, to the south edge of the roofed area?
Agent HOWLETT. It would be 11 feet.
Mr. JENNER. And it is how wide from east to west?
Agent HOWLETT. Seven feet three inches.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is it not true that except for the porch canopy we
have just measured, that the entire front lawn is open?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And unobstructed except for the tree?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in your testimony you stated that on the late
afternoon of November 21 when you came home, you approached your home
from what direction?
Mrs. PAINE. From the east.
Mr. JENNER. From the east and so you were driving west?
Mrs. PAINE. I was.
Mr. JENNER. And is it not true, as I look facing east now, I can see
some considerable distance of a good block down the street?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I am standing at the doorway entrance to your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. About where you were when you first noticed to your
surprise as I recall your testimony, that Lee Oswald was on the
premises?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection, I had just entered this
block--that's across Westbrook.
Mr. JENNER. Across the cross street which is to the east of your home,
which is named Westbrook?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that's how far?
Mrs. PAINE. Three houses down.
Mr. JENNER. Three homes down, and out on the lawn was Marina and June,
their child?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then Rachel, I assume, was in her crib or somewhere in the
house.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But she was not out on the lawn?
Mrs. PAINE. She was not out on the lawn.
Mr. JENNER. You pulled up in the driveway?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Paine, off the record, I would like to go into
that a little bit.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mrs. Paine off the
record at this point.)
Mr. JENNER. All right. On the record. You came home that evening, you
sighted your home and saw Lee Oswald out on the lawn, the front lawn,
late in the afternoon of November 21, 1963, and you swung--you came
to your home, pulled up in your driveway as is your usual custom and
parked your car?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Had Lee Oswald noticed you then as you pulled in the
driveway?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did he come over to your automobile?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you greet him in any fashion?
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is I was already out of the automobile
when we actually exchanged greetings.
Mr. JENNER. And did you express surprise that he was home that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not express it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything indicating he knew he was there by
surprise or at least unexpectedly?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did he do so at any time during the course of the evening?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. She expressed surprise to me, yes; and apologized.
Mr. JENNER. Apology for what?
Mrs. PAINE. For his having come without asking if he could.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether she was surprised?
Mrs. PAINE. My impression is she was surprised.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say so?
Mrs. PAINE. Not specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say she had not expected him?
Mrs. PAINE. That's the feeling I gathered.
Mr. JENNER. Well, from her facial expression, her mannerisms, her
attitude--you had the very definite impression that his arrival was
unexpected as far as she was concerned?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As well as yours?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, as I recall your testimony, you entered the garage
that evening--you don't know how many times--you do have an icebox or
deep freeze in the garage, do you not?
Mrs. PAINE. It's a deep freeze.
Mr. JENNER. And is it not a fact that the deep freeze is located right
up against the wall separating the garage from the dining room portion
of the kitchen-dining room area, is that not correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that deep freeze, John Joe, is what in length?
Agent HOWLETT. Three feet four inches.
Mr. JENNER. And that length extends southwesterly from the garage
dining room wall toward Fifth Street; correct?
Agent HOWLETT. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. And the deep freeze is how deep?
Agent HOWLETT. It is two feet six inches deep.
Mr. JENNER. And the deepness extends from the door jam, west edge of
the door jam, westerly; is that correct?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes; to the wall.
Mr. JENNER. And how high is the deep freeze?
Agent HOWLETT. The deep freeze stands 3 feet 3 inches tall.
Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Paine, is that deep freeze the type of deep freeze
that you uncover from the top, that is, the lid opens?
Agent HOWLETT. That's right.
Mrs. PAINE. It is known as a chest style.
Mr. JENNER. In preparing dinner, or even after dinner, your present
recollection is--since it is so much your habit--you can't remember the
number of times--it is your present recollection that in the ordinary
course of attending to your home and preparing a meal that evening you
would enter the garage at least going into some part of the deep freeze?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it highly probable.
Mr. JENNER. Did you prepare the meal that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you do anything else that evening in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do?
Mrs. PAINE. I lacquered two large box blocks.
Mr. JENNER. Would you obtain, if you can, from the box of blocks which
I notice now in your living room, the two blocks you lacquered?
Mrs. PAINE. This is one.
Mr. JENNER. You say you lacquered two boxes or two blocks?
Mrs. PAINE. It's the same thing, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine has produced still another thing, and I take it,
Mrs. Paine, that you meant two boxes?
Mrs. PAINE. I considered them blocks, but they do have the shape of a
box. They are what I call a large hollow block.
Mr. JENNER. They in turn are processed in building to be solid blocks?
Mrs. PAINE. That's all right. I describe them as--they are
sets--anything a child wishes to make it into for play.
Mr. JENNER. One of them right now in your living room contains wooden
blocks, does it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the other is empty?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. John Joe, will you measure that which Mrs. Paine describes
as a block and which I describe as a box?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 1/4-inch wide by 2 feet long.
Mr. JENNER. How deep?
Agent HOWLETT. It is 7-1/2 inches deep, with 1/2 inch press plywood on
the bottom, makes it a total height of 8 inches.
Mr. JENNER. John Joe, is that which Mrs. Paine calls a block and I call
a box, rectangular--it has a bottom, or at least it has a plate on one
side and it is open on the top of it--the opposite side--is that not
correct?
Agent HOWLETT. It is open on the top, yes. It is closed on the five
sides and open on the top.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, just so we don't have any confusion in the
record, is my description of this as being a box a fair description?
Mrs. PAINE. I will adopt it for our usage, for usage here.
Mr. JENNER. You are setting apart your sensitivity about blocks here?
Mrs. PAINE. That's quite all right--I will call it a box.
Mr. JENNER. And those two boxes or containers, you lacquered these that
evening?
Mrs. PAINE. That evening.
Mr. JENNER. How long did that take you?
Mrs. PAINE. About half an hour.
Mr. JENNER. And where were you working?
Mrs. PAINE. I was using the top of the deep freeze as a work space. I
had to walk from there to the work bench to get the lacquer and the
brush.
Mr. JENNER. Which end of the work bench, the south or the north end?
Mrs. PAINE. The north end.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what time of the evening, and I take it it was the
evening, am I correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. What time of the evening was it, approximately, when you
entered the garage to lacquer the two boxes?
Mrs. PAINE. It was 9 o'clock or a little bit after.
Mr. JENNER. Were the two boxes inside your home, and did you take
them into the garage, or were they in the garage when you prepared to
lacquer them?
Mrs. PAINE. My best recollection is that one was in the house and one
was in the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Well, where was the one in the garage located when you went
into the garage to lacquer?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. It was not on top of the deep freeze, was it?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it's very likely it was in the central area.
Mr. JENNER. Somewhere near the blanket wrapped package?
Mrs. PAINE. Somewhat near the saw.
Mr. JENNER. The circular saw or the band saw?
Mrs. PAINE. The circular saw, I think, but I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when you did open the garage, the entrance
to the garage----
Mrs. PAINE. You mean the overhead door?
Mr. JENNER. No; the regular door into the garage.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh--that--yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Without offending you, Mrs. Paine, I assume that that door
to the garage is normally--you are careful to keep it closed?
Mrs. PAINE. I am, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection it was closed on this
particular occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, it was.
Mr. JENNER. You opened the door, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was the first thing that arrested your attention when
you opened the door, if anything?
Mrs. PAINE. I was arrested by the fact that the light was on.
Mr. JENNER. The light where?
Mrs. PAINE. In the garage.
Mr. JENNER. The overhead light?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That headlight is approximately in the center of the
ceiling of the garage, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I believe it is.
Agent HOWLETT. It may be slightly to the center.
Mr. JENNER. It is roughly to the center and the socket instrument looks
like a porcelain socket that extends out from the ceiling and hangs
downwardly, as a matter of fact, perpendicular to the floor or the
ceiling; is that not right?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That bulb that's in there now, Mrs. Paine, was that bulb in
place on the night in question?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. And the ceiling fixture is unshaded, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. So, that, the bulb itself is bright and glaring?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. John Joe, would you take a look at that bulb and see what
watt it is?
Agent HOWLETT. It is a 100-watt bulb, I just looked at it.
Mr. JENNER. And it is quite bright, is it not?
Agent HOWLETT. Yes, sir; especially with the white reflection off of
the white walls.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; this garage is painted white, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The garage door is a medium shade of grey, and when I say
"garage door" I mean the overhead door, which is now in place, the
inside facing, which I see from this doorway?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You noticed that the light was on?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Why was that something that drew your attention?
Mrs. PAINE. I knew that I had not left it on.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any habit in that respect?
Mrs. PAINE. It's my habit to turn the light off.
Mr. JENNER. And frugality, if not appearance, had dictated you in that
direction, had it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, more appearance than frugality.
Mr. JENNER. And had Marina come to be aware of your habit? In that
direction, that is, of seeing that the light was off when you weren't
using the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I would suppose so.
Mr. JENNER. Is that your best present impression, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I believe you testified that it was your opinion that at
that time that it had not been Marina who had left the light on?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--it was definitely not Marina at that time.
Mr. JENNER. But it was who--had left the light on?
Mrs. PAINE. That Lee had left the light on.
Mr. JENNER. From that, you concluded that he had what?
Mrs. PAINE. Been in the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to the time you entered the garage around 9 o'clock
that evening. Had it come to your attention in any manner or fashion
that he had been in the garage earlier in the evening, I mean, apart
from this particular circumstance you have now related?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know how long he had been out of it when I went in
and found the light on. It is my impression he had been in it some
time between the dinner hour and the time I entered.
Mr. JENNER. Now, sitting as I am, in the dining room area of your
kitchen--dining room space--even if, as you have testified was the
fact, that either you alone or you and Marina were washing the dishes
and cleaning up at least after dinner, it would have been virtually
impossible, wouldn't it, for anybody to have entered the garage without
your noticing it, that is, entering from the kitchen-dining room area?
Mrs. PAINE. I would think so.
Mr. JENNER. And, would that not be especially true if you were in the
dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area?
Mrs. PAINE. That would be unquestionably true--if you were in the
kitchen-dining area at all.
Mr. JENNER. But you were not, I gather, at all times that evening up to
9 o'clock, in the kitchen-dining room area; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. I was in the kitchen-dining area part of the time,
occasionally, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. Were your children retired when you went into the garage,
at the time you went into the garage to lacquer your boxes?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, they were.
Mr. JENNER. Had you put them to bed that evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I had spent probably close to an hour in bed
preparations.
Mr. JENNER. Now, during that period of time, Lee Oswald could have been
in your garage without your knowing it?
Mrs. PAINE. I think it's likely--it would have been likely that I would
know it then too.
Mr. JENNER. Well, how would you have known it if you were in that
bedroom which is in the northeast corner, which is as we have measured
quite a good distance from the entrance to the garage? How could you
necessarily have known it--that's the point I am making.
Mrs. PAINE. I could not necessarily have seen him enter. If I was fully
in the room, my going to bed activities include being in the bathroom,
coming into the kitchen, and going into the living room.
Mr. JENNER. Moving in and out?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And I think I asked you during your testimony before the
Commission--were you conscious during the period up to 9 o'clock that
evening that Lee Oswald had been in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. It is my--I recall the definite feeling that he had been in
the garage. I can't recall seeing him go in.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the police picked up some books, did they not, and
other papers and things of which you were not aware at the time, you
weren't present when they did that, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Most of what they took I did not see.
Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to pages 144 to 147, inclusive, of
a volume which has a paster on its front cover reading, "Affidavits
and statements taken in connection with the assassination of the
President," which I will state for the record was furnished me by
the Dallas police this afternoon. Pages 144 through 147 are headed,
"Literature" as having been found by the Dallas police either in the
home of Mrs. Paine here in Irving, or in Lee Oswald's quarters on
Beckley Street in Dallas.
Would you please examine that list, Mrs. Paine, and you will notice
each page is headed "Name" and then the item is sought to be described,
whether a letter, a book, an application, a pamphlet or a booklet, as
the case might be.
The second column is headed "place found" and underneath that appears
either the word "Irving" or the word "Beckley"?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And there is a third column, headed "Microfilm," which
indicates that the police has microfilmed each item and they give the
microfilm number?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you go through that list and arrest our
attention to any item which had come to your attention prior to
November 22, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. [Examining instruments referred to.] I do not think I see
anything that I had seen or have since seen.
Mr. JENNER. You have looked only on page 144.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I am sorry.
Mr. JENNER. Take that card there and go down that way with it so you
don't miss anything.
Mrs. PAINE. This is mine.
Mr. JENNER. All right. The witness has now pointed at page 146 to what
is described as a magazine "Free World News." That's your own?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It is a publication to which you subscribe?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; anyway, I receive it.
Mr. JENNER. And "Friends" mentioned there is what?
Mrs. PAINE. There it refers to Quakers.
Mr. JENNER. The Quakers of your faith?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know whether that item is one I have seen or not,
from the description--it is microfilm 198.
Mr. JENNER. You can't tell from the description whether that magazine,
the cover of which is described, is one you have seen around?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't tell whether I've seen it or not.
Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether it's yours or was not yours?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right--I can't tell.
Mr. JENNER. Have you examined those pages 144 through 147, inclusive?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the only item you found which is your property is the
one we have picked out--you have picked out?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And is it also your testimony that having examined all
those items which are listed as having been found by the police in your
home in Irving, that you don't recall having seen any of those in your
home?
Mrs. PAINE. I'm quite certain I did not see--well, let's see, any of
those with the possible exception of a newspaper from Minsk.
"Magazine wrapper," I don't know whether that's it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you can't tell from that description?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't tell from that--perhaps there was no such listing,
but that's what I recall having seen.
Mr. JENNER. What do you recall having seen?
Mrs. PAINE. A newspaper from Minsk, but it doesn't appear to be listed.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, it is--just a moment.
Let's go off the record here for a moment.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the
record.)
Mr. JENNER. I guess you are right--that was just a wrapper.
Now, I will ask that at this place in the deposition the reporter copy
pages 144, 145, 146, and 147, to which we have been referring.