Mr. JENNER. When you say town, you mean Minsk?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. She turned to this portion of the newspaper and really
expressed herself as only interested in that. In this connection, I
can say she told me the plots of movies that she had seen some years
before, and retold them in some detail, with considerable interest.
Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about having seen movies in Russia
originating in America, in the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. Possibly. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate how she had acquired her interest in the
United States?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't.
Mr. JENNER. What was leading her to be favorably disposed to come and
live in this country?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.
She spoke of having met some young Cuban students who were traveling
in Russia, or studying in Minsk, or both--I am not certain. But she
commented on how Latin their personality was, how warm and open, and
how they would strum guitars in the street and go about in noisy crowds.
Mr. JENNER. Did she ever say anything to you or intimate at any time
prior to November 22--let's say prior to November 23--of any desire,
attempt or otherwise on the part of Lee Oswald to reach Cuba?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. Was--were the references to Cuba limited to those with
regard to Castro on the FPCC incident in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. Lee is the only one who mentioned the FPCC incident, and
then without the initials or name of that organization. And then, of
course, this reference in Minsk was to students who had been there only.
Mr. JENNER. You have given me a number of specifics. But I don't think
you have yet told me your opinion of Marina Oswald the person, insofar
as her character, integrity, general philosophy--as a person and a
woman.
Mrs. PAINE. I like her and care a lot about her. I feel that--as I
have testified, any full communication between us was limited by my
modest command of the language, and that we were also and are different
sorts of people. I feel that I cannot predict how she might feel in a
particular situation, whereas some of my friends I feel I can guess
that they would feel as I would in a situation. I don't have that
feeling about Marina. She is more of an enigma to me.
Mr. JENNER. But you say she is an appreciative person?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I would. I could not convince her of how helpful it
was to me to have her at my home in the fall of 1963. She was--thanked
me too much, I felt. It was very helpful to me, to have her there, both
because I was lonely, and because I was interested in the language.
And I also reassured her many times that it was not costing me unduly
financially--that this was not a burden. But I never felt I fully
convinced her.
Mr. JENNER. Well, is there anything you would like to say off record or
add to this record with respect to Marina Oswald as a person?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I have said the bulk of it.
Mr. JENNER. I will ask you this--your view or opinion as to whether
Marina Oswald was or could have been an agent of the government of the
Union of Soviet Socialist Republic.
Mrs. PAINE. My opinion is that she could not have been.
Mr. JENNER. She was not and could not have been?
Mrs. PAINE. Was not and could not have been.
Mr. JENNER. I wish to include both--that she was not and could not have
been?
Mrs. PAINE. My impression was distinctly that she was not. I don't
exclude the possibility that she could have been. I don't feel I have
knowledge. It would seem to me highly unlikely. But that is different
from being certain. I might add this. I think--things she said to me on
the evening of the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. After we had returned from the police station.
Mr. JENNER. You had returned to your home after being at the police
station?
Mrs. PAINE. We returned to the home, had dinner, had talked for a
little while in the living room, seen and sent home two Life reporters,
and then were preparing for bed. And she and I talked a little bit,
standing in the kitchen. She said both of the following things in a
spirit of confusion and with a stunned quality, I would say, to her
voice and her manner. She said to me all the information she had or
most of it that she had about the Kennedy family came to her through
translation from Lee, and that she thought----
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean translation?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, in other words, if Lee read in the paper something
about the Kennedys, or if there was something in Time Magazine about
them, he would translate to Marina, that is, put into Russian what was
said in this news media, and, therefore, inform her. And she thought
that if he had had negative feelings about Kennedy, that this would
have come along with the translation from Lee. But there was no such
indication of dislike from Lee to her.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this impressed you why?
Mrs. PAINE. I just record that she said it.
Mr. JENNER. It has impressed you to the point at which you wish to
relate it here. Why is that? You were relating it to what--to her
groping as to why her husband committed this act?
Mrs. PAINE. Her wondering whether he could have, but not in a defensive
way, but in this stunned way that I am trying to describe. And in the
same way she told me that----
Mr. JENNER. That is, is it your concept that she was ruminating--how
could he have said these things or called her attention to these things
with respect to President Kennedy, and still have assassinated him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was it in the sense that she was hurt, she could not
understand it--or was she trying to rationalize that her husband,
because of this, could not have assassinated the President?
Mrs. PAINE. It was more in the sense being hurt and confused. Not
concluding that he had assassinated the President. But not attempting
to conclude from this small piece of information that he had not. She
also said that just the night before, the evening of the 21st, Lee had
said to her he wanted to get an apartment soon, just as soon as she
could, together again. And this was said very much with a feeling of
hurt.
Mr. JENNER. Hurt what?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have to interpret, because we didn't talk about
it. But my interpretation was that here he was making this gesture of
caring for her, and wanting to bring the family together, and live with
her again on a full-time basis. But then on the other hand, how could
he be suggesting this if he had been planning to do something which
would inevitably lead to the break-up of the family. This, again, in
the spirit of the other comment from her just related, of confusion and
hurt, rather than defense.
Mr. JENNER. That is, rather than defense of him?
Mrs. PAINE. Of him; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else?
Mrs. PAINE. Nothing else.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of having written your sister in
June of 1957--as a matter of fact, on June 29, 1957--[See Ruth Paine
Exhibit 469, and transcript 390, post.] in which, to orient the letter,
you stated, "Last Saturday I started Russian class," and that was your
class at the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957--in
which you recounted the reasons why you were undertaking the study of
Russian. Do you recall such a letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the letter, but it certainly is likely I
wrote it.
Mr. JENNER. In which you said, one, that you enjoyed the study of
languages. Is it a fact that that was one of the motivations?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, two, that the language would be socially useful to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Socially?
Mr. JENNER. Would be socially useful to you.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't understand what that meant.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I can't explain it. I assume it meant that you were
recounting that you might use it in your social intercourse with others
who also spoke Russian, in seeking--for example, concerning your pen
pal activity and that sort of thing. This does not awaken anything?
Mrs. PAINE. It doesn't awaken any recollection; no.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Three, that it advanced your "interest in
Russian exchange."
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I may have hoped so, starting Russian. But my actual
skill didn't progress fast enough to be of any real use.
Mr. JENNER. And, also, that ever since, "The Young Friends Conference
in 1955," you had felt a leaning to the study of language.
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. And I have so testified--I used the word
"calling" in the testimony.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recall emphasizing in that letter that the study
of Russian on your part was an intellectual decision, using those very
words--intellectual decision?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall using those words. It is reasonable.
Mr. JENNER. As you recall back now, was that--did that activate you?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not entirely certain what I meant by intellectual
decision.
Mr. JENNER. I assume you meant a deliberate one.
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. One of intellectual curiosity?
Mrs. PAINE. I would judge so.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall writing your mother, as far back as October
1956, that--no; this letter was to your whole family--that is, those
back in Columbus, addressed to your mother, your father, and--what
was--Essie?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think probably family in this case just was my
mother and father at that time. Essie is my brother's wife.
Mr. JENNER. In which you then said you were thinking about studying
Russian as an intellectual pursuit? Does that sound like something you
might have said then?
Mrs. PAINE. It sounds like I thought myself more intellectual at the
time than I do now.
Mr. JENNER. But as you harken back on it, the elements I have now
recounted to you from correspondence with your mother and your folks,
are those factors which at least impelled you at that age and that
development in your life to undertake the study of Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And these are all in addition to those reasons that you
gave us yesterday, of course.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to know if you had any conversations with
Marina on any of the following subjects. I have a long list, most of
which you have already covered, and I will skip those. Have you now
recounted to us all of the conversations you had with Marina respecting
interviews by the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Any conversations--have you told us all on the subject of
Lee Oswald's Texas School Book Depository job, his reactions to it, the
nature of the work, his fellow employees?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak of his fellow employees at the Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. No; except Wesley, who drove him to work.
Mr. JENNER. You have told us all he has ever recounted to you on the
subject of his military service?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. His political views?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe I have told you all.
Mr. JENNER. Any particular books in which he was interested?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know of any books.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. PAINE. None that I saw him read.
Mr. JENNER. You have told us all you can recall about Oswald's
treatment of Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And any conversations you had with him on the subject?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss or did she ever discuss the matter of
his dishonorable discharge from the Marines?
Mrs. PAINE. That was never mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. By either she or him?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. Not by either one.
Mr. JENNER. You were aware of some of that, were you? You were aware
of the fact that he was first honorably discharged and then when he
reached Russia and attempted to defect----
Mrs. PAINE. Only through reading the paper after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. All I am seeking is, you were aware of the incident at
the time that you met the Oswalds?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I was aware that he had gone to Russia, but not that he
had received an unsatisfactory discharge, whatever the word is.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first learn of that?
Mrs. PAINE. From the newspaper after the assassination. Undesirable,
the word is.
Mr. JENNER. Undesirable discharge. Did he ever speak of Governor
Connally?
Mrs. PAINE. Never, to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did she?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever speak or--well, did he ever speak in your
presence of his dreams or aspirations?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Either for himself individually or for his family?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything about her dreams and
aspirations for herself and her family that you can now recall?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't believe I have said that she related to me that she
would like some day to have her own home and her own furniture.
Mr. JENNER. I think you told us that this morning.
Mrs. PAINE. It appears in the Look article, but I don't think I
mentioned it.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; speaking of articles, at any time during the
meeting you had with her on March 9, was anything said about magazine
articles--let us say--did you discuss the Life article with her?
Mrs. PAINE. We discussed the recent Time cover issue, on which Marina
appeared.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, I see. What was said on that score?
Mrs. PAINE. She thought it was misleading.
Mr. JENNER. That the article itself was misleading?
Mrs. PAINE. Further, she thought it was unkind to her.
Mr. JENNER. Unkind in the sense that it was inaccurately unkind or that
some things were recounted she thought ought not to have been recounted?
Mrs. PAINE. Inaccurately unkind. And she said something to the effect
of judging that the American people or at least portions of the press
would have to look that way upon the wife of an accused assassin. With
which I disagreed.
Mr. JENNER. Well, what did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. I said I thought that was Time Magazine in particular, and
had nothing to do with the views of the populace in general, I said I
thought that was better reflected by the letters that she had gotten
from a great many thoughtful and concerned people who had written to
her of their sympathy and support.
Mr. JENNER. Did she respond to that comment on your part?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall any particular thing she said.
Mr. JENNER. Did she evidence any feeling or reaction in your meeting on
March 9 to the generosity of Americans who had made these contributions
voluntarily?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did, particularly in response to a comment I made.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us that.
Mrs. PAINE. We had been talking about the lawyer and business manager
whom she is trying to fire.
Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; and I said she has seen the range of kind of people
in America--one side the many generous people who sent her thoughtful
notes and small checks to help her in her financial difficulty, and on
the other side the wolves who wanted to gain money from this situation
for themselves. And she concurred in that.
Mr. JENNER. She was aware of that distinction?
Did she indicate an awareness of that?
Mrs. PAINE. She thought that was an apt description; yes. I felt that
she thought that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, have you told us everything you can recall about Lee
Oswald's ability to drive an automobile and operate an automobile,
and your efforts to improve that driving capacity, and his efforts to
obtain a driver's license? Is there anything at all now that you can
recall that you have not told us?
Mrs. PAINE. There isn't anything at all.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation any time with respect to Lee
Oswald himself returning to Russia, as distinguished from Marina being
returned to Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no conversation of any sort nor any implication
of that to me at any time.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time on the subject of
his desiring to obtain or having obtained a passport to Russia in the
summer of 1963 or any other time?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no discussion of this at any time in my presence.
Mr. JENNER. And were you aware at any time prior to November 23, 1963,
that he had obtained or had applied for a passport?
Mrs. PAINE. No; and I wasn't aware until later, in fact.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything now on the subject of Lee
Oswald's efforts with respect to Marina returning to Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. All that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything that you can recall respecting
President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy and any comments or observations
on the part of either Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald with respect to the
Kennedys?
Mrs. PAINE. I have related all my recollections.
Mr. JENNER. Have you related all your recollections respecting the
attitude of either of them toward the Government of the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything you now recall in addition to what you
have testified to with respect to the connection of either of them
with or contacts, rather than connection--of either of them with the
Communist Party in the United States?
Mrs. PAINE. I was not aware of any contact by either of them with the
Communist Party in the United States.
Mr. JENNER. And the same question with respect to the Socialist Workers
Party.
Mrs. PAINE. Nor was I aware of any such contact.
Mr. JENNER. Would you now give us your impression of Lee Oswald's
personality? Was he a person who sought friends, was he a man who
sought his own comfort, his own consolation?
I am just trying to illustrate what I am getting at. Was he a man who,
to use the vernacular, was a loner? Do you know what I mean by that?
Mrs. PAINE. I have heard the word used a great deal.
Mr. JENNER. A man who preferred his own company, or at least appears to
prefer his own company, and does not seek out others, does not seek to
make friends, or even has an aversion to the making of friends, that he
is reticent, retiring.
Mrs. PAINE. I think it was here this morning that I described him as
a person whom I thought was fearful of actually making friends, and,
therefore, reticent, who did keep to himself in fact a good deal.
But I think he did enjoy talking with other people--at least some of
the time. He did watch television a great deal of the total time that
he was at my house.
And he would finish the evening meal earlier than the rest of the
people at the table and leave to go back to the living room to read or
watch television, and not just stay to converse. He would eat to be fed
rather than as a social event.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Just to make sure we have the record clear
on this--because it is of interest in other sections of this
investigation--except for the one or two instances you have related,
his habit was to remain in your home the entire weekend whenever he
visited?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any occasions in which he related or recounted,
or she, of his having made any friendships in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. He never mentioned anyone he knew.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about what he did after hours, after
work hours in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Only the reference I have already related, of having been
to the National Indignation Committee meeting.
Mr. JENNER. That was the only occasion? What was your impression of
what he did, from all you heard and saw in your home when he was there,
or any conversations you had with Marina, as to how he occupied his
time after work hours, during the week when he remained in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. My impression, insofar as I have one, is that he spent
evenings at his room, and he had mentioned, as I have said, that the
room he had moved to had television privileges, and I, therefore,
guessed that he made use of that opportunity.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression, or what impression did you
have on this score--as to whether he was a man who had--who somewhat
lacked confidence in himself, or might have been resentful that he was
not generally accepted as a man of capacity?
Mrs. PAINE. I think he had a combination of a lack of confidence
in himself and a mistaken, as I have said, overblown impression of
himself, these operating at the same time.
I think he felt that he wanted more skilled work than he was doing at
the School Book Depository. But the major impression I carry about his
feeling of work at the School Book Depository was that it was income,
and he was glad to have it.
I recall Marina's saying that Lee Oswald looked upon his brother Robert
as a fool in that he was primarily interested in his home and family
and that his interests in the world didn't really step beyond that.
Marina commented then herself on this, and said she thought those were
very legitimate interests.
Mr. JENNER. In his presence?
Mrs. PAINE. No; not in his presence. She was telling me what Lee had
said when he was not there.
Mr. JENNER. What is your impression of Robert Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have testified, I have very little impression
of him, having only met him twice. I might add to that that he seems a
nice guy, as far as I can see--fairly regular, plain person. But that
is my guess. I cannot say I have a clear impression of my own.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an occasion when Marina had a conversation
with Mrs. Gravitis?
Mrs. PAINE. By telephone. Oh, no; we went over one time, I think.
Mr. JENNER. And there was a conversation that went back and forth about
their life in the United States up to that point?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; some of that conversation went back and forth faster
than I could follow it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, do you recall an incident in the course of that
conversation in which Mrs. Gravitis made a remark that anyone could get
work in that locality, and that there was plenty of construction work
going on, to which Marina responded that construction work was beneath
the dignity of her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I recall a conversation of this nature, or you have
just recalled it to me, that Mrs. Gravitis thought that jobs were
available if you were willing to do the work. I don't recall just what
Marina's reply was. I do recall her saying that he found his work at
the Minsk factory more physically heavy than he was easily able to
handle, and the reference to--I don't recall her objection to the
mention of construction, but if there was one I would guess it was more
this nature, than indicating being above such things.
Mr. JENNER. That he might find heavy construction work or construction
work generally physically difficult?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; this from my recollection of what she said about the
Minsk job, not from my recollection of this conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall during the course of that conversation some
comments in which Marina implied that when they were in Fort Worth, at
least, that, arising out of her experience there, that both of them
rather did not want further contact with the people in Fort Worth
because her husband Lee did not agree with them personality wise?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything of that nature.
Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall her saying during the course of that
conversation that her husband was an idealist?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that, either. I have been trying to recall
whether the name of Peter Gregory came up in any conversation with
Marina. I have earlier testified today that it was my impression that
I had not heard his name until the 22d of November. I have a vague
impression that he was mentioned, or that this name was known to me.
But it is very hard for me to get a hold of.
Mr. JENNER. To recall, you mean?
Mrs. PAINE. To recall; yes. At some point, and it might have been
that afternoon of the 22d, or it might have been earlier, there was a
conversation which has left me with the clear impression that Marina
admired and thought highly of Peter Gregory.
Mr. JENNER. Peter is the father or the son?
Mrs. PAINE. Peter is the father. But, as I say, my recollection is
vague on this, and I don't know when that conversation might have taken
place.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say to your sister that you were of the
opinion that Lee Oswald was a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Does the group known as the Women's International League
for Peace and Democracy--is that a group with which you are familiar?
Mrs. PAINE. I have heard the name. I can't recall whether I have ever
joined or not. I wouldn't think so. But I just don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Your best recollection at the moment is that you cannot
recall having had any contact with that group?
Mrs. PAINE. Except possibly some literature.
Mr. JENNER. Between the 1st and the 5th of November 1963, did you make
any effort to obtain the address of Lee Oswald in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER. How tall are you, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. PAINE. Around 5 feet 10 inches.
Mr. JENNER. I will ask you this general question. I take it, Mrs.
Paine, that your study of and interest in the Russian language did not
emanate in any degree from any interest on your part in associating
yourself with any activities which were in turn to be associated with
Russia and the Communist Party or Communist interests.
Mrs. PAINE. It certainly did not stem from any such interest.
Mr. JENNER. And your continued pursuit of it does not stem from any
such motivation?
Mrs. PAINE. No; it does not.
Mr. JENNER. I think I have asked you this, but I want to make sure it
is in the record. You are a pacificist?
Mrs. PAINE. I consider myself such. I don't like to consider myself as
rigidly adhering to any particular doctrine. I believe in appraising
a situation and determining my own action in terms of that particular
situation, and not making a rigid or blanket philosophy dictate my
behavior.
Mr. JENNER. But you are opposed to violence?
Mrs. PAINE. I am.
Mr. JENNER. Whether it be violence for the overthrow of a government,
or a chink in the government, or physical violence of any kind or
character?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I consider it to be--violence to be--always harmful to
the values I believe in, and just reserve the right to, as I have said,
appraise each situation in the light of that initial belief.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, you have read a number of newspaper articles
and also various magazine articles dealing with the tragedy of November
22, 1963, and the Oswalds, and even of yourself. Do you have an
overall reaction of any kind to those articles and newspaper stories,
particularly with respect to their accuracy, you knowing what you do as
to what the actual facts were and are?
Mrs. PAINE. There are several things I might say in reply to that.
First, I have thought about someday teaching a course in high school on
the subject of newspaper and magazine accuracy, using this particular
story of the assassination of President Kennedy as source material.
I have been impressed with both the inaccuracy of things I have read
and my inability to judge inaccuracy when they do not--when the story
does not refer to things I personally know about.
On the whole, my feeling has been that the press has been pretty
accurate in reporting what I have said. I have by no means seen all of
what was reported of what I said.
I might say in this connection, but in a slightly different department,
that you will see a large stack of newspapers on a table in my house
when you come. They represent the newspapers I have not yet----
Mr. JENNER. Perused?
Mrs. PAINE. More than that--not yet found courage enough to read. They
are the newspapers of late November and of December. And while I have
tried to read them, I usually end crying, and so I have not gotten very
far.
I might say, just to be perfectly clear, that my problem is my grief
over the death of the President. That is what brings me to tears--much
more than my own personal touch with the story--although this just
makes more poignant my grief.
Mr. JENNER. I will read some listings that appeared in Lee Oswald's
memorandum or diary or address book, and ask you whether they were
mentioned during the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, or
whether you might have heard about them otherwise. The Russ.-Amer.
Citizenship Club, 2730 Snyder Avenue.
Mrs. PAINE. I have never heard of the organization, and I am not
certain where such a street might be.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not, either. I am just reading all of the entry
there is in the diary.
Mrs. PAINE. And I am to simply say whether it rings any bell?
Mr. JENNER. That is right. Russ. Language School, 1212 Spruce.
Mrs. PAINE. I know the Spruce Street is in Philadelphia, but,
otherwise, that rings no bell.
Mr. JENNER. Russian Lan., and then Trn.--216 South 20th.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know.