Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. 1963.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is about it.
Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I was placing it around January or February;
at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attend that party?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; as far as I remember, I did.
Mr. JENNER. And Jeanne as well?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Who else was there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. At this party was a lot of friends of Everett
Glover's whose names I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. Volkmar Schmidt?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; definitely. We called him Messer
Schmidt. He is a German; very intelligent, young Ph. D. in sociology
who also works at the same laboratory as Everett Glover.
Mr. JENNER. Magnolia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Magnolia Laboratory.
Mr. JENNER. And was living with Glover at that time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Was living with Glover at the time, I think.
Mr. JENNER. He was present?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He is a bachelor?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A bachelor.
Mr. JENNER. And who else?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we invited our neighbors, Mrs. Fox who
lived right next door to us, to that party.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Fox?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What is her first name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Mary Fox.
Mr. JENNER. What is her husband's name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She is a widow, I think, but it might have been a
different party, but I have the impression that she was there.
Mr. JENNER. Anybody else?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we invited our landlord also.
Mr. JENNER. Who is your landlord?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I forgot his name. Anyway he is my landlord. I
forgot his name. My wife has a better memory of names.
Mr. JENNER. Anybody else that you recall?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And Ruth Paine.
Mr. JENNER. Ruth Paine?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever met Ruth Paine before?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think that was the first time we met Ruth
Paine.
Mr. JENNER. You have never been in any singing groups with her?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Of which she was a member?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no.
Mr. JENNER. You did engage in some singing groups, did you not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but a different type of singing. I was
engaged only in the church choir singing and I think she engaged in
some sort of classical music singing.
Mr. JENNER. Madrigal?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I beg your pardon?
Mr. JENNER. Madrigal?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Madrigal; that is right. There is a group in
Dallas to which Everett Glover belongs, you know, who I think spent
some time singing in the madrigal.
Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection now as to everybody
who was present?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. There were quite a lot of people there, but if
you mention the names I will say yes or no.
Mr. JENNER. I want you to exhaust your recollection first.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I am not so sure. I think my daughter was there.
Mr. JENNER. Alex?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Alex. I don't remember if Gary was there.
Mr. JENNER. That is her husband?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Her husband.
You see, we showed our movie quite a few times.
Mr. JENNER. Did you show it that night?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think we showed the movie that night.
Mr. JENNER. Were Mr. and Mrs. Norman Fredricksen present?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That name is familiar to me but I couldn't
identify them.
Mr. JENNER. Were these people interested in meeting the Oswalds?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think Oswald mentioned to me--Glover mentioned
to me that Mrs. Paine was a student of the Russian language, that she
would like to meet somebody with whom she could practice. That is my
recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did the people engage in conversation with both of the
Oswalds?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were surrounded by the whole group. I do not
recall what happened, because I was busy making the description of our
trip while the movie was being shown. That movie, by the way, did not
interest Oswald at all. He was not interested.
Mr. JENNER. The Mexican trip movie?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; he was not interested. Neither Marina nor
Oswald were interested.
Mr. JENNER. Neither one?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Why was that, do you think?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They were not the outdoor-type people who would
appreciate that sort of thing, not sufficiently outdoor-type people,
not sufficiently sophisticated to appreciate that sort of a thing. At
least that was my impression.
Mr. JENNER. Did any of these people inquire of Oswald as to his life in
Russia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think so. I think after the movie there was
quite an animated discussion there asking many questions and many
answering. He was there very happy you see, because he loved to be
asked questions. He loved to be the center of attention, and he
definitely was the center of attention that night.
Mr. JENNER. That night. What about Marina?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know that she couldn't speak English.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. There were people there who could speak Russian,
weren't there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think she was talking mainly to Mrs. Paine,
and I noticed immediately that there was another nice relationship
developed there between Mrs. Paine and Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have some acquaintance with Mrs. Paine afterward;
you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never saw them again. Never saw them again as
far as I remember. That in my recollection was the only time I saw
her. I remember her distinctly because she is a very interesting and
attractive person.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a Richard Pierce and a Miss Betty MacDonald
attending that party?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I remember now Betty MacDonald. I don't
remember whether she was at the party but I think she was the librarian
at the Magnolia Research Laboratory.
Mr. Pierce is another friend of Everett's who also works at Magnolia,
who eventually became his roommate, or maybe he was already a roommate
at the time. I think he became a roommate later on.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred at that meeting that you
think might be significant that you would like to tell us about?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I really do not remember anything significant.
Mr. JENNER. Did you remain throughout the whole evening, or did you
leave before the party was over?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you did not bring the Oswalds to that meeting?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall either. I think they possibly
have come by themselves. Maybe somebody else brought them. Maybe,
Everett brought them.
Mr. JENNER. Either that or Everett?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; somebody else might have.
Mr. JENNER. It was not your party?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. You assisted him, however, in arranging it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; exactly.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything said at that meeting with respect to
their eliciting from Oswald his views with respect to Russia, and in
particular the former government in Russia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I remember quite a vivid discussion going on,
you know, because all those people are highly intelligent, and, very
intellectual group of people interested in what goes on in the world,
and as far as I know none of them has ever seen a Russian, and it
was just like a new specimen of humanity, you see, that appeared in
front of them, both Marina and Oswald, an American but who had been to
Russia. But I don't remember any particular discussion or disagreement
or agreement. I think probably Oswald was talking most of the time.
Mr. JENNER. Oswald was pretty proud, was he, of his ability to speak
Russian?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was proud of it, yes; because it is quite an
achievement for a man with a poor scholastic background to have learned
the language. It is surprising to me. It was an extraordinary surprise
for my wife and myself that he was able to learn to speak it so well
for such a short time as he was supposed to have stayed in Russia. As I
understand it, he stayed there some 2 years, I gather.
Mr. JENNER. That is all.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. And it is amazing.
Mr. JENNER. In speaking of that, as I recall, you noted he had a
conversational command of the language.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But that he did not speak a refined Russian.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no; not a refined Russian.
Mr. JENNER. He had trouble with his grammar?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when you knew them in which Marina
would correct his grammar and there would be an altercation between
them or something?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; there was bickering all the time. There
was bickering all the time. I don't remember whether it was especially
on the point of grammar, but there was bickering between them all the
time.
But as I said before, the bickering was mainly because Marina smoked
and he didn't approve of it, that she liked to drink and he did not
approve of it. I think she liked to put the makeup on and he didn't let
her use the makeup. My wife will explain a little bit more in detail
what was going on between them, you see, because she was a confidante
of Marina's, you see. I was not.
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate, please?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, my wife being a woman was interested in a
woman's problems, you see, Marina's, in the baby and in her makeup,
in the way she dressed and the way she behaved, you see. She tried to
correct her manners, correct, teach her how to be a human being, you
see, which Marina did not know very well. She was doing her best to
learn. She wanted to, but she really had a very poor background, you
see.
Mr. JENNER. You made a comment that you just said your wife had
confidence in Marina, but you didn't. What did you mean by that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Confidence from what point of view?
Mr. JENNER. I don't know.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I mentioned that because I don't like a
woman who bitches at her husband all the time, and she did, you know.
She annoyed him. She bickered. She brought the worst out in him.
And she told us after they would get a fight, you know, that he was
fighting also. She would scratch him also.
Mr. JENNER. She would scratch him?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She would scratch him also.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the time?
I will put the question this way in order to draw on your recollection,
rather than mine.
There was an occasion, was there not, that Marina left Lee by herself?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Without being taken?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I have a recollection of that.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. When did it occur?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember when it occurred.
Mr. JENNER. Does October 1963 refresh your recollection?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, but that was the period when we
were very busy with our cystic fibrosis campaign.
I do recall that one day I was in Fort Worth and I decided to come to
see Mrs. Hall, with whom Marina was staying.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the fact that Marina was at Mrs. Hall's?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of how she had gotten there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall how it happened, but I was aware,
somebody told me that, that she was staying at Mrs. Hall's.
Mr. JENNER. The Halls were separated at that time, were they not?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and Mrs. Hall had the boy friend who was a
friend of mine.
Mr. JENNER. What was his name?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A long name, German name, but he was of Polish
extraction. He was in the plastic business. Now, his name, Doctor--he
worked for some plastic company in Fort Worth. Kleinlerer, Alex
Kleinlerer. That is the name.
Well, I had a very hard time finding the house where Mrs. Hall lived. I
think Mr. Clark told me. That is probably it.
Mr. JENNER. Max Clark.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Max Clark probably told me that Marina is there.
Mr. JENNER. Is that 4760 Trail Lake Drive?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Trail Lake Drive. That is the place. And I
drove over and here was Marina, Mrs. Hall and Alex Kleinlerer. I don't
remember what we were talking about, what we discussed at that time. It
was a friendly visit to say how are you.
Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, was that this
was an occasion when Marina had left her husband?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And come to the Halls?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is, it is an occasion distinct from the one in which
you took Marina?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Away from her husband. And this occasion we are now talking
about at the Halls occurred subsequently to the time that you had taken
her to the Mellers?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. I think it was after our taking her away to
the Mellers.
Mr. JENNER. When you arrived there, what did you discuss in respect to
why Marina was there?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I think I was discussing, I was talking to
Alex Kleinlerer and to Mrs. Hall.
Yes; something vaguely comes to my mind that Mrs. Hall was saying that
Marina should leave their place.
Mr. JENNER. Should leave the Halls?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Should leave the Halls. The husband is coming
back or something like that, something to that effect.
Mr. JENNER. Her husband is returning?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; something to that effect.
Mr. JENNER. And did Marina leave?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall that she then went somewhere else?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall. If you could refresh my memory
I may remember better. Again, I want to underline that all this is
history for me, you see.
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that, and I must avoid trying to put things in
your mind also.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which is what I am attempting to do.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right. As I remember, take Mrs.
Hall--yes; I remember what we were talking about.
Mrs. Hall had had an accident, and she had either a broken leg or a
broken arm, something like that, and she was in a cast. That is it.
So we were talking about the accident most of the time, you see, what
happened.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a fact.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she had an accident. I remember now.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion or do you have any opinion
with respect to Marina's religious belief, whether she had any, any
religious feeling?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I had a vague impression--I don't remember
because I do not discuss religion too often--that she had religious
beliefs of some sort, you see. She was a Greek Orthodox and did have
some sort of religious belief.
Mr. JENNER. What about Lee, on the other hand?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Lee, I think religion did not exist for him.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't believe in God?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. God, I don't know, because I didn't ask him a
straight forward question, but I know that he did not believe in any
organized religion. That is for sure. But he never was militantly
against religion as far as I remember.
Mr. JENNER. But you have no recollection of any discussions or any
impression on your part about Marina going back to Russia at any time?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely goes on in my head.
Mr. JENNER. Oswald trying to get her to return to Russia?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Something vaguely goes on in my mind, but I do
not recall. Very possible, you see, that something was mentioned like
that. I didn't pay any attention, in other words.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald express views with respect to individual liberty
and freedom of the press?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think he understood the freedom of
the press, and individual liberties. I think he was too stupid to
understand the advantages we have of the free press and the free
speech. Not too stupid, I mean, but too uneducated to understand the
great advantages we have in free press and free discussion and in
individual freedoms.
Like many native-born Americans, he did not appreciate the advantages
you get in this country, you see. You have to be a foreigner to
appreciate it a little bit more. Many Russians, all the Russian
refugees appreciate that, you see, but many who are born here don't
appreciate it. Not all of them.
Mr. JENNER. What about Marina and her politics?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina was definitely more appreciative of life
in the United States.
Mr. JENNER. Was she inclined to discuss politics?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not too much; no. That was Lee's main point, you
see, to discuss politics.
Mr. JENNER. What was her attitude toward Lee's views in that respect?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She more or less considered him a crackpot, as
far as I remember, you see. A few times she said, "Oh, that crazy
lunatic. Again he is talking about politics."
This is one of the reasons we liked her, because that was a very
intelligent attitude, you see, but it was very annoying to Lee.
Mr. JENNER. That was another source of annoyance between them?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; there were so many sources of annoyance, as
you know, that it was just an unhappy marriage.
Mr. JENNER. You have stated at one time Oswald gave you something to
read that he had written.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't remember at what particular time,
but he gave me to read his typewritten memoirs of his stay in Minsk.
Mr. JENNER. Was it in the form of a diary?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, more or less the form of a diary, not day
by day, but just impressions. And as far as I remember, I read through
these typewritten pages, I don't remember how many of them there were,
and made comments on it, you see. But I don't think they were fit for
publication.
Mr. JENNER. Were they political in nature?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; not political in nature, but there was
nothing particularly interesting to an average person to read. It was
just a description of life in a factory in Minsk. Not terribly badly
written, not particularly well.
Mr. JENNER. Not good, not bad?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Not good, not bad. Nothing that I really remember
too well. I don't remember too well what was written there.
Mr. JENNER. I will show the witness pages 220 through 244, Commission
Document No. 206. Would you glance through those pages and tell me if
it has the material he showed you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't remember seeing that beginning.
Mr. JENNER. Let's get over to the area in Minsk.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; that is not at all familiar to me.
Mr. JENNER. The witness is now looking at page 232.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Starting here at the bottom of page 232 it looks
familiar to me. How many mistakes he makes here, it is terrible. It
does not look familiar to me. I think it was something else that he
showed me. I do not recall that. That I definitely do not remember.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would have remembered that sentence, you know.
Mr. JENNER. You are now on page 235:
"I am having a light affair with Nell Korobka."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I would have remembered something like that, you
see. Again another sentence I do not recall.