Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Excuse me, before I forget I wanted to insist
on one thing which I meant to tell you before that. What was the main
thing that I really liked about Oswald, you see. You asked me that
question before.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was ferociously, maybe too much so, for
integration, advocate of integration. He said that it was hurting
him, the fact that the colored people did not have the same rights
as the white ones, and this is my opinion also, you see. I was very
strongly opposed to segregation, and I am sometimes very violent on
that subject, because it hurts me that I live in Texas you know and I
do not have colored friends. I cannot afford to have colored friends,
you see. It annoys me. It hurts me. I am ashamed of myself. And I try
to make some friends among the colored people and the situation is such
that it is hard to keep their friendship in Texas, you know. So I know
what the situation is. On that point Oswald and I agreed. And this is
another reason why Oswald and Bouhe fought so bitterly, because Bouhe
is a segregationist. He is an old-guard segregationist that he learned
from the Texans you know that the colored man is just a flunky. And I
had quite a few fights with him about that, with Bouhe. And possibly
his animosity, Oswald's animosity to Bouhe and vice versa were based on
that, you see, although I am not so sure about it. But I assumed that
that was one of the reasons.
And I think that was a very sincere attitude on his behalf, very
sincere.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to return to this gun, this weapon incident,
the Walker incident.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion after this time, when you and
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came to see the Oswalds, that as soon as you
opened the door, you said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never. I don't recall that incident.
Mr. JENNER. You have now given me your full recollection of that entire
rifle incident?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Weapon incident, and what you said to him?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes, yes, yes; that is right. How could
I have--my recollections are vague, of course, but how could I have
said that when I didn't know that he had a gun you see. I was standing
there and then Jeanne told us or Marina, you know, the incident just
as I have described it, that here is a gun, you see. I remember very
distinctly saying, "Did you take the potshot at General Walker?"
The same meaning you know, "Did you miss him," about the same meaning?
I didn't want him to shoot Walker. I don't go to that extent you see.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't want him to shoot anybody?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Anybody. I didn't want him to shoot anybody. But
if somebody has a gun with a telescopic lens you see, and knowing that
he hates the man, it is a logical assumption you see.
Mr. JENNER. You knew at that time that he had a definite bitterness for
General Walker?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I definitely knew that, either from some
conversations we had on General Walker, you know--this was the period
of General Walker's, you know, big showoff, you know.
Mr. JENNER. He was quite militant wasn't he.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He was, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, up to that moment, is it your
testimony that you never knew and had no inkling whatsoever, that the
Oswalds had a rifle or other weapon in their home?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely positive that personally I didn't know
a damn thing about it, positive, neither did my wife.
Mr. JENNER. And as far as you know your wife didn't either?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the weapon?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not see the weapon.
Mr. JENNER. I won't show it to you then. Was there any discussion about
the weapon thereafter?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No, no discussion. That ended the conversation,
the remark about Walker, ended the conversation. There was a silence
after that, and we changed the subject and left very soon afterwards.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a feeling that he was uncomfortable?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very, very uncomfortable, but I still did not
believe that he did it, you see. It was frankly a stupid joke on my
part. As the time goes by it shows that sometimes it is not so stupid.
But you know my wife will tell you probably that I have a very stupid,
bad sense of humor, she says, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Some people say you have a sadistic sense of humor.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Possibly. She says so also, my wife usually says
that I like to tease people.
Mr. JENNER. And you do, don't you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She dislikes it. I like to, certainly, and
I don't mind if people tease me. I never get mad you know. It is
perfectly all right if somebody teases me.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a member of a group in Dallas known as the Bohemian
Club?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about the Bohemian Club. Did you organize it?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Mr. Ballen and I organized it together and
the occasion arose one day when Mr. Ballen and I were driving back
from a well, an oil well we were driving far away from Dallas. It was
a long drive and we were discussing our lives in Dallas and a little
bit exchange about the sort of boring people we have around in Dallas
you know, nothing but Texans. And then by God, says Ballen, "We should
do something about it. We should organize--there are some interesting
people in Dallas. We should organize a group for free discussion. And
also we should put--we all like to eat well. Let's combine it with good
eating." And that is how the idea originated.
Mr. JENNER. And you called it what?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. We called it the Bohemian Club, a little bit
based on the Bohemian Club in San Francisco. And we invited--we decided
to invite people who are sort of unusual and in different professions,
and that no business should be discussed during the meetings, that
the member whose turn it is to make a speech should also provide the
dinner, and either cook it himself or his wife would cook it or he
should invite all of us to a restaurant of his choice. This lasted I
guess for a year or 2 years you know. We had quite a few meetings,
very interesting, controversial meetings, because the main point was
that you had to express yourself freely on the subject which is very
important to you. Then followed a discussion of all the other members.
Mr. JENNER. On the subject.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. On the subject.
Mr. JENNER. Was it intended that the discussions be provocative or
presented in a provocative fashion?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. As much as possible, and we had some real lulus
there, some very provocative discussions.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion when you had this club at your home
or restaurant that you supplied the meal?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; one day I think I made one particular speech
that I made on the subject of Vlacsov's Army which are the White
Russians and refugees who decided to fight with the Germans against
Soviet Russia. They were helped by General Vlacsov who was a Soviet
General, and then later on became Commander, was made prisoner by the
Germans and then decided to fight the Communists, because obviously he
was dissatisfied with the Stalinist regime, and it was quite a large
group. I never met any people of that type, but Mr. Voshinin provided
me the material on that subject, and I made this little speech and I
think everybody was very satisfied with the speech except Lev Aronson
who is a Jewish friend, a Jewish friend of mine who was in the German
concentration camp and he obviously had met some of those Vlacsov
soldiers, and anyway he criticized me quite a lot on that speech.
Mr. JENNER. Did he criticize you during the course of the meeting?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. During the course of the meal?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you accuse anybody of being a Nazi?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did he accuse?
Mr. JENNER. Did you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Did I accuse anybody?
Mr. JENNER. In the way of provoking the discussion?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Of provoking the discussion? I don't remember
that. Possibly I had, but I don't remember that. Actually he accused
me more or less of being pro-Nazi by giving that speech you see. He
accused me of being, which I am not you know, but that expresses my
opinion of the difficulty that sometimes the refugees are in when their
opinions, political opinions, differ with their own country you see.
Those are the people who are fighting their own country because they
were deeply inside anti-communists, you see. I didn't say that I was
all for them you see. I just described this as an interesting incident
because I just read a book on that subject or something you know, and
I thought that it was an interesting incident of the last war that
occurred.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Oswald operate an automobile?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I had the impression that he didn't know how
to drive and I was quite surprised----
Mr. JENNER. What gave you the impression that he didn't know how to
drive?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I couldn't swear to that, but I think I asked him
"Do you know how to drive an automobile? Why don't you buy yourself an
automobile?" I remember saying.
Mr. JENNER. Where would he get the money?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you know you can buy a car for $20, or $30,
some old wreck, and somebody with any mechanical ability could fix it.
Mr. JENNER. What was his response to that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have the impression that he said that he didn't
know how to drive, but I couldn't swear to that. And naturally Marina
was needling him all the time to buy an automobile.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, she was?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; she was.
Mr. JENNER. You have a definite impression?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. A definite impression of that. She was needling
him.
Mr. JENNER. Apart from an impression, as a matter of fact you were
present and knew she was needling him to purchase an automobile?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I could almost swear to that, but again it is so
vague I could not recall the exact words, you see.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a definite impression of that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, I have a definite impression of that. I
might have put it in her mind you know. Either my wife or I might have
put it in her mind because it is incomprehensible to live in Texas
without an automobile. It is not like New York. They were completely
isolated where they were living, you see.
Mr. JENNER. And you were suggesting it.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I might have suggested it.
Mr. JENNER. Because of that.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Or my wife.
Mr. JENNER. What impression, if you have any, do you have with respect
to his sexual habits? Did you ever have any thoughts?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As to whether he was a homosexual?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. He was not in your opinion?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't think so, I think he was an asexual
person, asexual, and as I told you before, Marina was bitterly
complaining about her lack of satisfaction. This is really the time
that we decided just to drop them you see. One of the reasons you see
we decided not to see them again, because we both found it revolting,
such a discussion of marital habits in front of relative strangers as
we were, see.
Mr. JENNER. And this occurred more than once?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. You see this occurred probably in the first
period when we knew Oswald. You know there was a first period when we
knew them, until about October. Then we didn't see them any more, and
I think it was caused by many factors you know. We just got tired of
them. We didn't like them. We did not like this particular remark about
sex life, and other things you know. We just were not interested in
them, and then the fact that she returned back to Oswald, see what I
mean, after we had taken her away from him, that she went back to him
that disgusted us.
We told her, "Now we helped you. We are not going to do anything more
about you." And we didn't see them in October, November, December, see.
Mr. JENNER. Except for this party?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Except for the party, and then Christmas came
and we thought well, the Oswalds all by themselves you know. It is
Christmas time, we should take them out. For that period they were
completely out of my mind you see. Then we decided to take them out,
and I think it was in January after this party that we took them again
to meet Everett Glover.
Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a moment.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I think actually there were two parties that
we took them to. One at Ford's and the other at Everett Glover's.
No, pardon me, I made a mistake. We took them also, both of them one
afternoon, and I think it was still in the first period of us knowing
them, to the house of Admiral Bruton who is a friend of ours, and a
retired U.S. Admiral who works in Dallas and has; both he and his wife
are good friends of ours. And they are very kind people.
Mrs. Bruton loves the children. She is a grandmother, and we told her
that here we have that miserable couple with a child, could we bring
them to the pool 1 day? And she said "fine, bring them along." And we
brought them to the pool, and no sooner the admiral saw Oswald you
know, and heard a few words from him, he said "take this guy away
from me." This Bruton was quite a hero in the war you know, and he
immediately sensed that Oswald was a revolutionary character you see,
and no good. He sensed that, being a military man you see. I think
he asked him a few questions "is it true that you were in the Marine
Corps?" And Oswald made kind of a sour face about the Marine Corps. So
it was very short and very unpleasant interview because the admiral
left you know, and his wife, being a kind person, stayed there for a
while you know, and then we took the Oswalds back again.
Mr. JENNER. You never did use the pool?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They never used the pool because I don't think
Oswald liked swimming. And just recently I got a letter from Mrs.
Bruton in Paris saying "is that the same man that you brought once to
my house?" She has been reading the story of Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. When you went over to pick up the Oswalds to take them to
that Christmas party did you enter their home?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is just vague to me. I don't remember how we
got them. Whether I did or my wife did--I do not recall how it was done.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you whether you noticed if they had a
Christmas tree or any indication of celebration of Christmas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have some vague recollection of some kind of
celebration but I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to whether he
did or didn't believe in Christmas?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't remember. I assumed that he did not.
Marina was naturally interested in Christmas.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. She was.
Mr. JENNER. Did the Oswalds, either together or separately, come to
your home frequently or several times and spend the day with you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I was trying to pin down how many times we saw
them in all, and it is very hard you know. I would say between 10 and
12 times, maybe more. It is very hard to say.
Usually they were together.
Mr. JENNER. She come alone?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Sometimes she came alone; yes. I don't recall his
coming all by himself. I don't recall any incident.
Mr. JENNER. There was some testimony to the effect--I want you to pause
before I ask you another question, exhaust your recollection on this.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when they came in the morning and
stayed all day?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina might have stayed all day you see, or 3 or
4 hours you see. My wife will remember, will have a better recollection
of that, because I was at that time busy on three projects, and really
my mind was on something else, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Having exhausted your recollection, there is testimony to
the effect, about Marina, that "we used to come early in the morning,
and leave at night. We would spend the entire day with them. We went by
bus."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. By bus? My wife will remember that better.
Possibly I was not at home you see. I was running around doing
business, my business you know.
Mr. JENNER. You came to their home for short visits?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I came to their home for short visits, and
sometimes would find Marina alone, maybe twice, something like that you
see, would find Marina alone, and ask her, "How are you getting along?
Goodbye."
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever visit them and bring some foodstuffs?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. My wife will remember that
better than I do.
Mr. JENNER. Does this refresh your recollection in any degree,
testimony that "the De Mohrenschildts visited us, they usually came
for short visits. They brought their own favorite vegetables such as
cucumbers. George likes cucumbers."
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I like cucumbers, and I am sure that my
wife will remember that, because it was her idea, not mine. She was in
charge of food you know. If they did spend the whole day with us, it is
possible it was at the very beginning when my wife took Marina to the
doctor, you know, and then brought her back again, something like that.
I don't remember seeing them in the house all day long.
Mr. JENNER. But they might have been there all day long when you
weren't around.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. They might have been, might have been. My wife
will remember that, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions when they had meals at your house?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Oh, yes; I think so. I think so. I don't remember
the exact occasion but I am sure that we fed them quite often, because
they were hungry.
Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact you went out of your way to see that
they were fed?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, yes; I think so. My wife did, not I.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion on your part with Oswald with
respect to his family, his mother, his brothers?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; this is very interesting. I remember
distinctly that Marina especially told me that they had lived with the
brother, and that he told them to leave the house. Now we assumed that
it was----
Mr. JENNER. Recapture your recollection a little more about this.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It is something to that effect, you know, and
it was a little bit surprising to me, and then after seeing her for a
little while, I realized why they did, because she was incredibly lazy
you see. She wouldn't help anybody.
Mr. JENNER. Who was incredibly lazy?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina, very lazy, wouldn't help anybody with
anything. When she stayed for instance with the Mellers, and the baby
you see, Mrs. Meller told us that she wouldn't help her at all, you
know, around the house.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Would sit there and smoke and do nothing. Now I
have a recollection, a vague recollection of Lee telling me that he
didn't get along with his mother. Actually it was surprising how little
he spoke about his family. It was just something completely that was
not discussed you know.
He didn't talk about it. But I have a vague recollection that he
disliked his mother. He didn't get along with his mother, and Marina
disliked the mother.
Mr. JENNER. Marina disliked the mother also?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Marina disliked the mother also.
Mr. JENNER. You have a definite recollection of that?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I have a recollection of some kind, not in any
exact words, but that is the impression I had.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion or did you become aware that they
had lived also with the mother as well as the brother?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that.
Mr. JENNER. But you have a definite recollection that Marina had met
the mother and had a reaction to her?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; Oh, that she met the mother, definitely. I
assumed that you knew.
Mr. JENNER. And that reaction was an unfavorable one?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Unfavorable reaction, and possibly my wife will
remember more than I do.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get any reaction as to how Oswald felt with respect
to his brother?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Again a vague idea that he did not get along with
his brother.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become aware that he had two brothers?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I didn't even know he had two brothers.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any occasion when it came to your attention that
there was any alarm on Marina's part with respect to Lee possibly
inflicting some harm on Vice President Nixon, or former Vice President
Nixon?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. No.
Mr. JENNER. That doesn't ring a bell at all?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It doesn't ring a bell at all. But what I wanted
to underline, that was always amazing to me, that as far as I am
concerned he was an admirer of President Kennedy.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about that.
Tell me the discussions you had in that connection. Did you have some
discussions with him?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Just occasional sentences, you know. I think once
I mentioned to him that I met Mrs. Kennedy when she was a child you
know, she was a very strong-willed child, very intelligent and very
attractive child you see, and a very attractive family, and I thought
that Kennedy was doing a very good job with regard to the racial
problem, you know. We never discussed anything else. And he also agreed
with me, "Yes, yes, yes; I think it is an excellent President, young,
full of energy, full of good ideas."
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever indicate any resentment of Mr. Kennedy's wealth?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. That is definitely a point there, you know. He
did not indicate, but he hated wealth, period, you see. Lee Oswald
hated wealth, and I do not recall the exact words, but this is
something that you could feel in him, you see. And since he was very
poor, you know, I could see why he did, you see. I even would tell him
sometimes, "That is ridiculous. Wealth doesn't make happiness and you
can be poor and be happy, you can be wealthy and be very unhappy; it
doesn't matter." I met a lot of wealthy people in my life and found
that quite a few of them are very unhappy and I have met quite a few
poor people and they are very happy. So it is nothing to be jealous of.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with him Governor Connally?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never discussed it with him.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any opinion with respect to Governor
Connally?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Never had a word about it. You see, I was not
familiar with the fact that he did have a dishonorable discharge.
Mr. JENNER. That is another subject.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were not familiar with that at all? It was never
discussed?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It was only in the papers that I read after the
assassination that I read in the papers that he had a dishonorable
discharge. I assumed that he had an honorable discharge. I assumed that.
Mr. JENNER. There was never any discussion in the Russian colony on the
subject that he had not had an honorable discharge?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall that. I do not recall. But I
was again probing in my mind whether I heard anything about this
dishonorable discharge or not.
Mr. JENNER. As you are sitting there, you are probing your mind?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes, my mind, thinking about it, now you know,
and it is impossible to say because I read in the paper that he had a
dishonorable discharge, after the assassination.
Mr. JENNER. And you don't want to rationalize?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not want to.
Mr. JENNER. Now let us turn to the party at the Glovers.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were acquainted with Mr. Glover, were you?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Everett Glover?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everett Glover.
Mr. JENNER. Who is Everett Glover?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Everett Glover is a chemist at Magnolia
Laboratories, Standard Oil of New York Research Laboratories.
Mr. JENNER. Now, had Everett Glover met the Oswalds prior to this party
at his home?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. He might have, I don't recall. He might have met
them, either Marina or both of them, for a short time.
Mr. JENNER. Have you exhausted your recollection on that subject?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. My wife may remember this more distinctly.
Mr. JENNER. But have you exhausted your recollection?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Does this serve to refresh your recollection?
Mr. Glover has stated that he had met Marina previously.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At your home several times?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be; yes.
Mr. JENNER. It could be?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. It could be; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And had been invited to your home several times because she
was a Russian-speaking person who was having marital difficulties with
Lee Oswald?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Very possible, very possible. Now I recall even
this, since you mention this. I suggested that they might live with
Everett Glover, this couple.
Mr. JENNER. You made a suggestion?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. To whom?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. To Glover. "You have an empty house. Why don't
you let them live with you and pay you so much per month?" And I think
he declined that.
Mr. JENNER. He did organize this party, however?
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Who? Everett?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. DE MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.