Mrs. GRAVITIS. To Post, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Is that near Dallas?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. 325 miles west of Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. How long did you stay in Post, Tex.?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I am sorry, Brownfield, which is 38 miles north of Post.
Mr. BELIN. Where have you lived in Texas since then?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Quite a few places, because I don't remember the small
towns. Brownfield, Lubbock, and again Brownfield.
Mr. BELIN. Since you have come to Texas, have you always lived with
your daughter and son-in-law?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN [to Mr. Mamantov]. So in your deposition, I would assume
then, Mr. Mamantov, what you said, I would find the places you have
lived in Texas?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Before coming to Texas, did you do anything in Europe other
than teach? Any occupation other than teaching when you were in Europe?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Before we left Latvia, you mean?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was a housewife also. No other profession.
Mr. BELIN. Since coming to America, what has been your occupation?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. In New York I was part-time janitor together with Mr.
Mamantov, on Broadway somewhere. Was cleaning the sidewalks and heating
the furnace. The people helped me, the neighbors helped me to clean the
sidewalks.
I was raising the grandchildren, and by that time we had three. One was
born in Germany. Then after that I sewed and taught Russian, individual
students.
Mr. BELIN. This is generally what you have done then since coming to
Texas, is private tutoring?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. And sewing. The sewing is the main point, but tutoring
on and off, because it is not enough students.
Mr. BELIN. When did you first become acquainted with Ruth Paine, Mrs.
Michael Paine?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was teaching in Berlitz School here in Dallas. I
was also teaching Mrs. Paine. This was 3 years ago, but I don't
remember the date when I started. And Mrs. Paine used to take Russian
instructions at the Berlitz school, but not from me. I can add this.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know how much the Berlitz School of Russian lessons
cost?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. You mean how much I got paid?
Mr. BELIN. No; how much Mrs. Paine paid?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know for sure. The principal didn't tell me, but
I heard somewhere from $5 to $6.
Mr. BELIN. That is at the Berlitz School?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. He paid me $2.50.
Mr. BELIN. $2.50 for a private lesson?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Being directly, not through the Berlitz School?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; I received remuneration.
Mr. BELIN. The Berlitz School paid you $2.50?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. For how long a teaching session would this be?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. One hour.
Mr. BELIN. A private session at the Berlitz School for one hour, or
would this be several people in the class?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. If I had one student, then I received $2.50. If I had
two, then I received $3.
Mr. BELIN. When you taught Mrs. Paine, was there generally one student?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Excuse me, I never taught Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Paine was
taking lessons before I came to that school.
Mr. BELIN. How did you get in contact with Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I gave two lessons to Mrs. Paine at the Berlitz School.
This way I became acquainted and she said it was too expensive, and
Mrs. Paine dropped out of school.
Mr. MAMANTOV. After she dropped out, Mrs. Paine called me at the office
and asked me to teach, and I refused, but I suggested my mother-in-law
would teach her at home.
Mr. BELIN. At whose home?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. At our home. I mean it is a private lesson for $8 per
hour, private lesson.
Mr. BELIN. When Mrs. Paine was taking from you those two lessons at the
Berlitz School, was there anyone else in the class with her?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She was by herself and I gave her only two lessons.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of student was Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She was a good student, talented, serious.
Mr. BELIN. Had she had any contact with any other Russian teachers,
that you know of, in Russia?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Pardon me?
Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine have any contact with any Russian teachers in
Russia?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What do you know about this?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I was correcting the lessons. I had the letters--Mrs.
Paine was writing to this particular teacher. The name of this teacher
was Nina, and she was teaching English language, beginning classes.
Some were in Russian, somewhere in Russia. I don't remember the name of
the city.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know how Mrs. Paine got in contact with this Russian
teacher?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her, and as far as I remember, she said through
a youth organization, but she didn't go into detail. I didn't question
her any more.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the name of the youth organization was?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Or was it a political youth organization?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. In the letters that you translated or corrected did the
grammar of Mrs. Paine, contain any political discussion?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Letters, you mean?
Mr. BELIN. The letters that Mrs. Paine was sending to the teacher,
or the letters you saw from the teacher, was there any political
discussion involved?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. When did you first start teaching Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I started some time during the summer before Mrs.
Paine's son was born, who was born in February, the following February,
and then she discontinued taking lessons.
Mr. BELIN. What period would this have been? What year?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately 3 years ago. The boy right now is 3 years
old, so we say 1961.
Mr. BELIN. 1960, wouldn't it?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. The boy was born in 1961. Yes; 1960, the summer of 1960.
Mr. BELIN. After the boy was born, did you ever give her any more
Russian language lessons?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; during the fall when the boy was a few months old.
Mr. BELIN. Did you keep up contact with Mrs. Paine after she quit
taking lessons?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. When did you first hear or learn about Marina Oswald?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Either April or May. Probably April. Mr. and Mrs.
Fredricksen came to our house and told us they had attended a party,
that there was an American who came recently from the Soviet Union, and
his wife is a Russian.
Mr. BELIN. When did you first have a conversation with Marina Oswald?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I never have talked with her in person, but only on the
phone. In May of that particular year, Mrs. Paine went to San Antonio,
and she asked me would I help Marina because she doesn't know the
English language and nobody could help her.
Mr. BELIN. This was Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She asked me to help, and Marina was pregnant at that
time.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Have you ever met Marina Oswald?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever met, or did you ever meet Lee Harvey Oswald,
her husband?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Lee Harvey Oswald on the telephone?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Marina Oswald on the telephone?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How many times, approximately, have you talked to Marina
Oswald?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Two.
Mr. BELIN. When did the first conversation take place, and what was
said?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. The time when Mrs. Paine went to San Antonio, we had a
severe storm, and the next day in the morning, I called Marina at the
Paine's home.
Mr. BELIN. This would have been when?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I think this was in May 1962, or 1963, I forget. This
was this past summer, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. What did Marina Oswald say? Did she say where she was from
and where she lived before she came to this country?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her where did she come from, from what city in
Russia. The answer was, she came from Leningrad and used to live in
Leningrad, on Ligovka Street.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say she lived anywhere else other than Leningrad?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said she lived in Minsk and got married in Minsk,
and together with her husband--excuse me it is just the reverse. She
lived in Minsk, got married in Minsk, and went to Leningrad and lived
on this street in Leningrad.
Mr. BELIN. After she was married?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. She lived in Leningrad with her husband after she got
married?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Would you mind if she started again?
Mr. BELIN. Let's start at the beginning now.
Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Minsk she got married. This is White Russia. And then
together with her husband arrived at Leningrad. They lived in Leningrad
on this street, Ligovka Street.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Now mother stresses that so much, because she remembers
this part in Petrograd very well, and this was the laborers, the poor
part of Leningrad--I mean of Petrograd at that time, and somehow
brought mother's memory back to Petrograd.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say what she did in Leningrad and Minsk after she
was married, or what her husband did?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I asked her what is her profession. She said she is a
pharmacist. And I was surprised at 22 years and pharmacist.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say what her husband did in Russia?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and she didn't say.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say what her father did?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No. She said that she didn't have parents. Father and
mother were dead, and for this reason she had easier time to get out of
Russia.
Mr. BELIN. Did she have a stepfather?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she came to the United States?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said her husband was returning home and she came
with her husband. I was very surprised how did the Soviet Union let you
out, I asked Marina. She said, "We had a luck."
Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything else about that?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. "Husband doesn't have work here." I mean in the United
States, and so her husband didn't have any income, and for this reason
she lives at Mrs. Paine's home.
Mr. BELIN. Did she give any other statements about how she happened to
get out of Russia other than that she had luck?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't ask and I felt she wouldn't tell me. I mean, I
didn't ask, and I feel if I asked, Marina wouldn't tell me. Nobody who
is coming out from there would tell how they got out or why they got
out. She was complaining that her husband didn't have work here and
couldn't get a job. I replied that everybody who wants to work in the
United States can get a job. Then she asked me what kind of work you
mean. I said any kind of laboring work is possible. Roadwork or any
kind of work. And she said that her husband thinks that such type of
work is below his dignity.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say whether or not her husband was a Communist?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She would like to ask you now what do you understand by
the word Communist?
Mr. BELIN. Well, I would like to have your mother-in-law explain just
what she would call it.
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I had a conversation. I said here in Dallas is a
person or a gentleman who helps many Russians who are arriving in
this city, or who has helped in the past, Mr. Bouhe. Marina said,
"Yes, I know him." She said her husband and Mr. Bouhe don't match in
their characters. And I replied that you think probably not match the
characters, but they agree in their principles, and she said, "Yes."
Mr. MAMANTOV. She said, my husband--and this word, I don't know exactly
how to translate it--I mistranslated it for the FBI, this word, and I
think in your investigation it is very important.
She replied that her husband is now--I could not translate just the
individual word. I have to give you the meaning of the Russian word,
which was developed fairly recently--that my husband is a person who
believes in ideas, and it means ideals of the Communist movement.
Now, I can give you the translation of this word if you would like to
insert, because maybe in Washington you can get a better description of
this word.
Mr. BELIN. Can you spell the word?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; ideinyi--which has political connotations, and
it means a person who believes in the Communist movement, Communist
ideals, but doesn't hold yet a ticket or membership in the Communist
Party. But this is a step to achieve the membership in the Communist
Party.
And I think it is very important, which mother emphasizes, and I
translated it in the FBI report, "idealist," which is not correct. So
it is broken down first, pioneer. Second, the membership in the Youth
Communist Party. Third, the candidate for the Communist Party. And this
third step is eventually for this particular work.
Mr. BELIN. As I understand it now, you say there are various stages to
become a member of the Communist Party in Russia, is that correct?
Mr. MAMANTOV. When mother heard this word from Marina, she couldn't
talk to her any more or ask her any questions, because this stage of
the person becoming a full time member Communist was most dangerous for
the people in Russia or in Latvia or in the Soviet Union.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by most dangerous?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I mean that this is the most dangerous stage, because
this person or during this stage, they are spying on other people. They
are spying on other people to gain personal reward from the communistic
people.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, they had to do certain deeds when they go to
the last stage, which is the actual Communist membership, is that it?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes. I also said in the previous conversation, which
I can assure you that this is true, which I know from my personal
experience. When I was teaching from 1940 until 1941, people like this,
who were in this particular stage, who were not yet members of the
Communist Party, were spying on me, listening behind the door when I
was teaching in the class, and this way it is my experience from that.
Mr. BELIN. I believe that she said that a very small percentage of the
Russians are actual members of the Communist Party, and that it is the
screening process that gets memberships, is that correct?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes. It is a small percent of population are the
members, are the actual members of the Communist Party, and to become,
they have to gain reward. I mean, they have to be advanced by the
individual deed.
Mr. BELIN. About what percent are members of the Communist Party?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Are you asking her at that time when she left or what it
is now?
Mr. BELIN. Both.
Mrs. GRAVITIS. At that time there were approximately 2 million, which
is 1 percent, approximately. And I have read recently that there are
approximately 5 or more million people members.
Mr. BELIN. But she doesn't know of her own knowledge?
Mr. MAMANTOV. She read. She said that she read recently also that there
are approximately 20 million of the communistic youth members, or
members of the communistic youth organization.
Mrs. GRAVITIS. If you don't belong to that organization, you cannot get
education. You cannot advance in your educational system.
Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say whether she was a Communist?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that when she got married she was expelled from
the communistic youth organization, which in Russia is called Komsomol.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say why she was expelled?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because she married an American. I understood that this
was the reason why she was expelled. And I asked how did they allow you
to leave the Soviet Union. When you are expelled, they considered them
as enemies of the people, and they don't give them permission even to
work, a working permit. And they don't give those people also the free
education or scholarship.
Mr. BELIN. When you are expelled from the Communist movement, does this
affect whether or not you get out of the country?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know. I think it wouldn't help.
Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything else about her husband?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say much about the people that she knew here in
Dallas, Tex.?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that many Russians helped her and Americans
here in this vicinity helped her. She said that she wouldn't like to
meet with the Russians any more.
Mr. BELIN. Why not?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because Russians are asking too many questions. I feel
that because she got tired of being questioned all the time.
Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say whether or not she would take any work
here?
Mr. MAMANTOV. They haven't talked on this particular subject. However,
mother's interpretation is that she couldn't work because she has a
small child. She talked only about her husband who didn't have work and
they didn't have an automobile.
Mr. BELIN. Didn't have an automobile?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Did her husband know how to drive?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about her husband as a photographer?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes; he would like to obtain a job as a photographer.
And I understood that he was in Oak Cliff a photographer, and when he
went to New Orleans, he continued to look for a job as a photographer.
Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything about what her husband did or
had done in Russia and where he had gone?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; only that he was in Minsk and then Leningrad so
much. I didn't ask her any more questions.
Mr. BELIN. Could he travel in Russia?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. What kind of living accommodations did Lee Harvey Oswald
have in Russia? A house, or an apartment, or what?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She said that in Leningrad they had a room, and she
volunteered to say that the room was better than the Russian people
locally would have.
Mr. BELIN. Why was this?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Was because her husband was an American.
Mr. BELIN. Was it just that he was an American? Did she say, or was
it because he was in this so-called third stage of the--of becoming a
member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about whether or not the husband, Lee
Harvey Oswald, had a gun in Russia or whether he went hunting there?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. She didn't say anything?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I didn't have time to talk. It is my personal opinion,
if he is just an average man in Russia, he wouldn't have any chance to
have a gun or rifle or shotgun in Russia.
Mr. BELIN. What about to become a member of a hunting club or go
hunting?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. This is so in America. There is no such thing as hunting
clubs over there.
Mr. BELIN. You know of no such hunting clubs over there?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Of course there are trappers, but either they are
professional trappers or they are members of the communistic party.
Otherwise, you have to have permission to have a firearm.
Mr. BELIN. You have to be a member of the Communist Party to belong to
a hunting club?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Did Marina Oswald say anything about ever going for walks to
discuss things so they wouldn't be overheard when they were in Russia?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. When you say that the living accommodations were better
because Lee Harvey Oswald was an American, what do you mean they were
better? In what way would they be better than the average person there?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. The room was larger, cleaner, and probably in a better
area of the city. I think, because he would write to his relatives,
that he certainly would say that he had better accommodations.
Mr. BELIN. What did Marina Oswald say about how she liked the United
States?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She liked the United States and she also said that she
was watching TV that particular day when they talked, and she saw our
President being in the crowd and shaking hands with people. It was
unbelievable. She said it is unbelievable such a freedom.
Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about whether she belonged to a church?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. In Russia or in the United States?
Mr. BELIN. Here in the States.
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She didn't say that she belonged to a church, but she
did say that she christened her daughter or she had christened her
daughter.
Mr. BELIN. And what church?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. The Greek Orthodox. It is called Eastern Orthodox.
Mr. BELIN. Here in Dallas?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else in this first conversation that you
had with her that she said about her husband?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. First of all, what struck me was that she said it is
below his dignity to take any kind of work. That surprised me very
much. That is my personal interpretation.
Mr. BELIN. My question is this. Is there anything else that Marina
Oswald said about her husband?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Now did you have any other telephone conversations with
Marina Oswald?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Two times.
Mr. BELIN. Two more?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Twice in total.
Mr. BELIN. Two conversations in total?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, the first one you said was in May of 1963?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. When was the second one?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately maybe 2 or 3 weeks. I don't remember
exactly when Mrs. Paine came back from San Antonio.
Mr. BELIN. This would be, say, June of 1963?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Approximately. Before she went to New Orleans.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked to Marina Oswald since that time?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Paine about either Marina
Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald since these conversations with Marina
Oswald, or about that time? Have you ever since talked to Mrs. Paine
about the Oswalds?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What did you say, and what did Mrs. Paine say?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Mrs. Paine told me that Oswald obtained a job as a
photographer in New Orleans, and now Marina can join him and go to New
Orleans.
Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Paine ever invite you over to the home to meet
Marina Oswald or her husband?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. No; but she offered to bring Marina to our house. I
mean, she didn't invite me to her own house, but offered to bring
Marina to our house.
Mr. BELIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. She can bring Marina, but not her husband.
Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you want her husband?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Because he was using again this word, ideinyi. He was
in the third stage of obtaining the Communist membership. Because I
am afraid, and all of us are afraid that they are collecting some
information on us and notifying their own people.
Mr. BELIN. By the use of the word "they," who do you mean? Lee Harvey
Oswald, Marina Oswald, or both, or some other person?
Mrs. GRAVITIS. Oswald--the people who are in this particular stage
trying to get promotion. So they would spy on us. I had a fear.
Mr. BELIN. Did you think or did you say anything to Mrs. Paine about
whether Marina Oswald had anything to do with this group that might be
trying to spy, or what have you?