Mr. JENNER. As yours?
Mr. MAMANTOV. As mine. We are both geologists and might be called
miners, and the Voshinins are the same.
Mr. JENNER. Who else?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Grigor'ev--this was the benefactor of that church. That's
called Grigor'ev, he was the benefactor of that church. Voshinin,
Bouhe, all of us were on the same educational level. The rest of them
were below high-school education, especially like in Mr. Bouhe's
case, he is an accountant, and a Latvian--Mrs. Grolle, G-r-o-l-l-e
[spelling], and the first name is Emma. Now, who else was there--now,
an Estonian couple who are very active--Hartens, H-a-r-t-en-s
[spelling], and his first name, I don't remember, but if you need it
exactly, we take the telephone book--all of these names are in the
telephone book. This group actually was very active in organizing.
Mr. JENNER. Meller, M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; and Mrs. Meller--right, and the closest relationship
is between her and Mr. Bouhe.
Mr. JENNER. You mean there's a close relation between Mrs. Meller and
Mr. Bouhe, they are close friends.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; closest of all this group because these people
actually was the nucleous of those church workers or financial
supporters. I was a worker for a while, but I didn't contribute money
because we just came to Dallas and we didn't have enough to contribute,
but Mr. Grigor'ev and Mr. Bouhe were the main financial supporters and
through them, through all this group, I met Mr. De Mohrenschildt the
first time.
Mr. JENNER. Then, I'll ask you this general question--would you please
state all you know about George De Mohrenschildt, and you are free,
in making the statement, to give your impressions and take it as
chronologically as you can, and I should say to you that this testimony
is privileged. You are not subject, unless you have an evil heart and
evil intent, to any litigation, that is, slander, libel, or otherwise.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; only I know about the man, like I told you, that we
were being closer acquainted with him and his present wife.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Because of his characteristics, of his frivolous life,
his behavior in the presence of ladies--to us suspicious political
trips supposedly related to his business and this is the extent I can
say of him.
Mr. JENNER. Have you told us everything you said to the FBI when you
called them on the 22d of November before you were contacted by the
Dallas office?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I haven't told them anything except I know of the
assassin and if I can be of service I would like to relate the
knowledge I have.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was there an occasion on which your mother-in-law,
Mrs. Gravitis made some comment or gave an opinion to you, her opinion
as to Lee Oswald with particular reference to his possible political
leanings, and does that serve to refresh your recollection enough--I
don't want to suggest the conversation to you.
Mr. MAMANTOV. In relation to what?
Mr. JENNER. In relation to Oswald, whether he was a Communist or what
his political leanings were in her opinion?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, on many occasions that came up, the conversation,
after her conversations with Mrs. Paine, and after hearing through Mrs.
Paine and my mother-in-law what he was saying and how he was opposed to
our way of life and knowing that he came from that country, she and I
stated that he is a Communist--we didn't hesitate.
Mr. JENNER. That was based upon the reports to you from your
mother-in-law as to what Mrs. Paine might have or did say to her and
from, I gather, your general knowledge at that time that he had gone
from this country to Russia?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And had returned with Marina as his wife?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, and not only through Mrs. Paine, because
after we found out--many people of Russian descent were somehow
acquainted with Lee Oswald and Marina, so we heard later from different
sources of him and his political opinions.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do I correctly interpret your testimony that because
there is a Russian emigre group here that is lively and interested in
each other, that they took an interest, if for no other reason, that
they took an interest in Marina and to an extent, Lee Oswald, to expand
her acquaintance in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area and make them
comfortable to the extent that you people out of the kindness of your
heart could do so? I don't want to describe it incorrectly--give me
your reaction to that.
Mr. MAMANTOV. My reaction--I never was asked to help them, never was
approached by them or people who tried to help them.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression, that people were trying to help
them?
Mr. MAMANTOV. People who tried to help them, I told them on many
occasions they shouldn't do it.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Well, I told Mrs. Paine--Mrs. Paine was an interested
person.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Because, in my opinion, Oswald was a Communist and was
sent here with certain purpose, whether to kill or what to do, but he
had an assignment and because my belief was and still is, and which is
strengthened due to the 22d assassination.
Mr. JENNER. And these views and opinions of yours are not based on
any direct knowledge on your part of Lee Harvey Oswald, that is, any
direct contact during the course of events up to November 22, that is,
you don't point to any specific knowledge on your part, but it is a
realization----
Mr. MAMANTOV. It is a realization of what the people told me of
his political viewpoints, their home being in the Soviet Union and
supposedly being an undesirable person, but I have again past cases in
my life where exactly what he did, other people, they are doing it, and
I am sure you have heard many questions on TV and those questions were
asked before.
Mr. JENNER. And I take it, Mr. Mamantov, that you regard yourself, and
that you are a loyal and dedicated, naturalized American.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I am.
Mr. JENNER. And you are proud and concerned about your standing in that
respect?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes, sir; but I'm not a member of the John Birch Society,
I am not a member of any organization except my professional and local
Republican Party.
Mr. JENNER. At any time prior to November 1963, were you aware of
or has there come to your attention any information or statement
attributed to Oswald, that to you indicated that he had animosity or
opposition to President John F. Kennedy as an individual, as I say,
prior to November 22?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; I understand--no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Or any animosity or opposition to John F. Kennedy in his
capacity as President of the United States?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir; only the information was relayed to me that he
was opposed to the Government of the United States, without mentioning
the President or any other name.
Mr. JENNER. And you have no information on which you personally can
rely of your personal knowledge, indicating that Oswald was a Communist?
Mr. MAMANTOV. You mean if I have proof--physical proof?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. MAMANTOV. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did you meet George Bouhe?
Mr. MAMANTOV. It is September or, I mean, late part of September or
early part of October 1955, when I still was by myself in Dallas. I
heard of him being from Estonia, which was mistaken and happened to be
a Russian. So I called him up and we met in the restaurant. He came to
my house--he came to my room where I rented. I forgot the number--3405,
if I remember right, Milton Street, and invited me to eat with him out
in the restaurant by name Europa, and there we ate and then somehow we
went back, you know, I discovered he is White Russian and I am White
Russian and he talked extensively about Mrs. Meller.
Mr. JENNER. Me-l-l-e-r [spelling]?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Mrs. Meller--right.
Mr. JENNER. Is she a White Russian?
Mr. MAMANTOV. No; she is--she came the same way like Mrs. Ford came
from--was brought by Germans into Germany and came to the States.
Mr. JENNER. Off the record a moment, please.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mamantov off the
record.)
Mr. JENNER. On the record, now. Are you acquainted with what Lee
Oswald's reputation was in the community in which he resided as to
his personality? Now, in this question I seek to distinguish from his
political beliefs. What kind of person was he--was he quiet, retiring,
avoiding friends, did he have any reputation toward inclination to
violence, or did he have a reputation in that connection, and if so,
are you acquainted with his reputation in the community?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I'll put it this way--the people who wanted to help
Marina didn't want to help Oswald because he was holding back--I
mean--people tried to start conversations, always he went into
political questions and, of course, immediately he disagreed.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have a reputation for being unpleasant, pleasant,
was he sociable in the sense that he was at ease among other people,
did he seek their company? I'm asking now, only reputation, sir.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Again, I can say only in the houses he has been--for one
reason or another he was disliked--I'll put it this way.
Mr. JENNER. All right--by the Russian emigre group as a whole?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. They had a low opinion of his reputation in the community,
in that community of people--Mr. Mamantov?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. It was one of reservation, dislike--that they did not think
well of his personality?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct, he was holding back and he didn't try
to make friends or he didn't try, was what I heard--he tried to keep
Marina away from those people and appeared a couple of times with her
in other Russian houses, but not very willingly and was holding back.
Mr. JENNER. He was holding back?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything else with respect to his reputation
in the Russian community area? I'm not seeking specific instances, but
only general reputation, the reaction of the Russian community group
toward Lee Harvey Oswald before November 22?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Yes; once he beat up Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that's a specific instance, and therefore is not
reputation. May I explain to you that reputation in a community is
what the whole body of the community feels after knowing a person for
a while. It is a reaction gained by people in the community from many
instances.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Not from the one instance.
Mr. JENNER. But, not from one--one instance is hearsay to us.
Mr. MAMANTOV. Well--only, I know that he was undesirable--and after
people met him a few times, or, we say, met even once in their own
houses, he was undesirable to those people.
Mr. JENNER. Was he regarded as a difficult person?
Mr. MAMANTOV. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. I think you have said this, but may I ask you--your
mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis, has served as a tutor for Mrs. Paine?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I mean--she get the job through me.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; of course.
Mr. MAMANTOV. That put her to work with Mrs. Paine. You see, what
happened, Mrs. Paine was calling me at the office and asked to
teach--and I told her I'm not interested to teach individual students,
and I suggested my mother-in-law, and this way we made arrangement for
my mother-in-law to teach her Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with the reputation in the Russian
community of Marina Oswald, and I'm going to ask you several
subdivisions--first, as to her personality.
Mr. MAMANTOV. From what I heard, she was a very pleasant young girl,
was quite open in her discussions, in her conversations. My conclusion
was that she is very pleasant to be around.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with her reputation in the Russian
community for truth and veracity?
Mr. MAMANTOV. For whom?
Mr. JENNER. As to her truth and veracity, that is, did she have a
reputation with respect to whether she was or was not a truthful person?
Mr. MAMANTOV. Right, I see what you mean.
Mr. JENNER. A person upon whose statements one might rely?
Mr. MAMANTOV. I don't know--as a community. I do know in our family
discussion.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll take that part of the community.
Mr. MAMANTOV. All right. We didn't accuse her one way or another way,
but we couldn't understand how she could come out of the Soviet Union
so easily and also, statements she made to my mother-in-law about him
living in a small apartment, which we still have relatives and, I mean
distant relatives, and we know that they cannot live in a comfortable
apartment. For this reason, we have opinion, or, we wouldn't trust her
on the first-hand information.
Mr. JENNER. Did she have a reputation in the Russian community with
respect to whether or not she was a member of the Communist Party? Now,
that is a political question.