Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. It's a very distinct impression.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. That this is one of the reasons why I would never have
asked him, as you asked me, what he felt about his wife making more
money. He seemed very depressed about how the Russians had treated him.
Mr. JENNER. Did he appear to you to be sensitive on this score--that
he----
Mr. TAYLOR. It appeared that he would be sensitive if I had broached
the subject.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, have you exhausted your recollection as to
what he told you of his life in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any independent activity on his
part--that is, activity of his distinct from Marina--such as, for
example, going hunting?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of the use of firearms for hunting ever
discussed by him with you?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; nor was the subject, which I think you were leading up
to, of the Russians' right or lack of right to own firearms discussed.
Mr. JENNER. The subject of firearms was never discussed?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss at any time with you, or did you hear him
discuss it in your presence, his effort to return to the United States
and any difficulties, if he had any, in that connection?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I believe he said that--uh--he did have difficulties
and that it took him--uh--about a year to get permission to come to
this--return to this country with his wife.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about whether he undertook that effort
prior to his marriage--had commenced it prior to the time he had
married Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; he indicated that he commenced it after his marriage.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you at any time, or was the subject
discussed in your presence, as to the courtship between Marina and
himself?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; or, if it was, I have no recollection of it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your
presence, of any illnesses on his part while he was in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Have we now exhausted his discussions with you
with respect to the subject of his life in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your
presence, the subject of why he sought to return to the United States?
Mr. TAYLOR. Oh, only that he was unhappy with both the way of life in
Russia and--uh--the place that he had been given in it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your
presence, the subject of Marina's inclinations in that connection--any
desire on her part to come to the United States?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; there was never--uh--any discussion as to her feelings
about coming to this country at all. I don't think, in any case, that
they were important to him.
Mr. JENNER. At least, they weren't discussed in your presence and not
with you directly?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Was there discussed in your presence, or did he discuss
directly with you, their route back to the United States?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I believe the only thing that he ever mentioned about
that was that the American Embassy, I presume in Moscow, loaned him the
money to return.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your
presence, his reaction to the Russian system, as such, distinguished
now from what was accorded him which you have related--more in the area
of the political area--the Communist system, as such, the political
philosophy, as distinguished from the U.S.S.R. as a country or
government?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, everything that we discussed, of course--and the
things I have related--illustrate the distinction between the two
political governments--such as, services that a Russian citizen obtains
free and the housing, various rights or lack of them that the Russian
citizen had. We did not discuss the system otherwise except perhaps
some impressions he had about government officials living somewhat
better than the average citizen lived.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss with you, or was there discussed
in your presence, the Communist Party as distinct from the Russian
Government?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your
presence, his political philosophy?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I would say that at the point in his life which I
knew him, he was somewhat confused about philosophy. He did not seem
particularly happy with the form of government we have in this country
or with government as it exists anywhere. I think he had been--and
perhaps still was--a partisan of a Communist form of government, but,
as it is practiced in Russia, I don't think that he liked it at all.
Mr. JENNER. All right. What else was discussed on this--was it a Sunday
afternoon?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; there was a discussion about Lee's job--which I
believe he had just left the Friday before. He was--he terminated his
employment. I don't know if he was fired or how he became severed from
it--and he wanted to move to Dallas. And there was some discussion
about the move and it taking place, and so on, and I cannot be sure now
whether it was this Sunday or the following Sunday that Marina came to
stay in my home.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mr. TAYLOR. I tend to think that it was that Sunday afternoon that we
invited her to come and stay with us, and I believe Lee said----
Mr. JENNER. In the event he went to Dallas?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; to actually come and stay with us from that Sunday
evening forward.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--during their move. Just to give her a place to live
until he was able to find a job here in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. It was, therefore, your impression, I take it, that your
invitation was not tendered because of any difficulties between Marina
and Lee, but rather to afford her a place to live temporarily until Lee
became established elsewhere?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. In Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. I mean, my statement is a fair statement of the then
atmosphere?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I, at that time, was not aware that there was any
marital disharmony.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I'm going to ask you that question as of
that afternoon. What was your impression, if you have any, of the
relationship between Marina and Lee as of that time?
Mr. TAYLOR. As of that time, it appeared to be normal--normal man and
wife relationship. I think it was somewhat strained by a language
barrier. Some of the people present, not speaking Russian, and she did
not speak any English, and this left somewhat of a burden upon the
others present to interpret the conversations from one side or the
other. But I was not able to sense any disharmony at that point.
Mr. JENNER. Now, by the time you had arrived at their home, had you had
some notion of why you were invited to be present on that occasion?
Mr. TAYLOR. Only to meet them and I hoped to learn something about
Russia and how people live there.
Mr. JENNER. All right. How long did this meeting take place?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I believe from about 4 until 7.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have anything to eat during that period of time?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now related all the subjects discussed at that
meeting having a relation to the Oswalds and any part you would play in
their lives?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--well, as I mentioned before, it was difficult to
remember whether it was that Sunday or the following Sunday, but I
tend to think that that Sunday evening, Marina and her daughter, June,
returned to Dallas with my wife and I and that Lee stayed----
Mr. JENNER. That was at the time of that first meeting?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; at the time of the first meeting--at the end of it.
And that Lee stayed in Fort Worth that night and that he and Mrs. Hall,
some time the next day, moved their bigger belongings--more bulky ones
other than clothing--to Mrs. Hall's garage and stored them there. And
then he came to Dallas and--uh--took up residence at the Y.M.C.A. here.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. Now, do you know, as a matter of fact, that he did
take residence at the Y.M.C.A.?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How long did Marina remain with you and your wife in your
home, commencing that Sunday night?
Mr. TAYLOR. Approximately 2 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. And she brought with her what--in addition to her child, of
course?
Mr. TAYLOR. Just clothing.
Mr. JENNER. And you were residing then where?
Mr. TAYLOR. At 3519 Fairmount.
Mr. JENNER. In what town?
Mr. TAYLOR. Dallas, Tex. I believe it was apartment 12.
Mr. JENNER. You say you spoke no Russian, you understood no Russian,
your then wife understood a few words of Russian but had difficulty
with the language?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. How did you get along about your social intercourse between
Marina on the one hand, yourself and your wife on the other, during
this week?
Mr. TAYLOR. My social intercourse with Marina during this period
was somewhat limited. She and my wife at that time, Alex, were
able to--uh--not to discuss anything, but were able to communicate
sufficiently to get along and perhaps even enjoy each other's company
to some extent. My son and their daughter, June, are within a month of
the same age; so that helped the barrier of language somewhat in their
being able to play with the children and the children play with each
other.
Mr. JENNER. Did she have any visitors during that week--or did you say
2 weeks?
Mr. TAYLOR. Two weeks.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, on one occasion I remember specifically, and
probably Mr. De Mohrenschildt, and George Bouhe came one time.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear anything from Lee Oswald during that 2-week
period?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first hear from him?
Mr. TAYLOR. I think on either the following Monday or Tuesday.
Mr. JENNER. That would be the next day or the day after the Sunday
meeting?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; I believe I, or someone, talked to Lee on the
telephone and I believe I went down and got him. I went down to the
Y.M.C.A.
Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas?
Mr. TAYLOR. Here in Dallas, on two or three occasions, and picked him
up.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go in to pick him up or did you find him in front
of the building?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--I think I did both. I remember specifically once going
into the desk and asking for him and then telephoning him to come down.
Mr. JENNER. You asked for him, you were given a room number, you used
the house telephone to call him? Is that a fair statement?
Mr. TAYLOR. Something--I just remember that I went in and asked for him
and he came down. I did not go up to the room, but I do remember going
in and his coming down to meet me.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I think it might be helpful, now, if you would
continue from the point after your 3-hour visit in the Oswald apartment
late Sunday afternoon and early evening. You then took Marina to your
home. Your recollection is that the next contact you had was that there
had been a telephone call by Lee to your home. As a result of that
call, you went to the Y.M.C.A. Is that correct?
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Now, why did you go to the Y.M.C.A. as a result of that
call?
Mr. TAYLOR. To pick him up so that he might visit his wife.
(Recess: 3:35 p.m. Reconvened: 3:50 p.m.)
Mr. JENNER. Now where were we?
Mr. TAYLOR. Let's see, I believe I was talking, awhile back, about
people that had seen them during this period, and I mentioned that
there was only George Bouhe and Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And
George Bouhe came by just, I think, to be sociable, and to see if he
could give Lee any suggestions on where he might look for a job. And at
some point during this period----
Mr. JENNER. This is the 2-week period?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; the 2-week period--Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came by and
picked Marina up.
Mr. JENNER. At your home?
Mr. TAYLOR. At my home--and took her, I believe, to a dentist.
Mr. JENNER. Now, how do you know this?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, it sticks in my mind because while the two of
them were gone, Marina's little girl, June, cried almost constantly
because, I guess, it was the first time she had ever been away from
her mother--and she cried constantly and wouldn't even eat for the
whole period Marina was gone--which, as I remember it, was the better
part of 1 day. I think she had two teeth pulled, or something. I'm not
sure about what was done other than that she did go to see, I think a
charity--went to a charity dental clinic.
Mr. JENNER. And it is your distinct recollection that she was taken to
the charity dental clinic by your step-mother-in-law?
Mr. TAYLOR. My mother-in-law. There's no "step" to me. Just
mother-in-law.
Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. By your mother-in-law.
Mr. TAYLOR. That would be a stepmother to my wife.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Did you ever take Marina to a dental clinic?
Mr. TAYLOR. No--not to my recollection. I didn't take--uh--Marina
anyplace that I remember.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the Baylor University College of
Dentistry?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I know that there is one here; that they have one out
at Baylor Hospital--but I'm not familiar with it otherwise.
Mr. JENNER. Would you fix the period when Marina was in your
home--first, the month?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--it was in September of 1962.
Mr. JENNER. And all of the stay was in the month of September, and none
of it in the month of October 1962?
Mr. TAYLOR. My memory, as I say, is not clear back that far. But--uh--I
personally have no recollection of dates involved. Even when I was
first interviewed, I believed it to be during this period we are
talking about. It was pinpointed for me one time that it would--that
Lee left his job on or about the 6th of September and that, just going
from that date, why it would, presuming, as I remember, that that was
a Friday in 1962, I believe that they came--she came to my home for a
period of 2 weeks after that. I don't believe that it lasted any longer.
Mr. JENNER. During this period, did you have occasion in calling from
your home or place of business to call Lee Oswald at the Y.M.C.A.?
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe I--uh--I may not have personally. I may have
dialed the telephone for Marina and asked for him so that she could
talk to him.
Mr. JENNER. Well, did you ever seek to reach him by telephone either
for yourself or for Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't specifically remember an occasion doing that.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any occasion when you made a telephone call
to the Y.M.C.A. in an effort to reach Lee Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; not specifically. I could only say that it is probable
that I would have.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether Mrs. Taylor ever made an effort to do
so?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; I don't recall her having made an effort to do that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll put it this way: Did you ever have any trouble
finding Lee Oswald, whether by telephone or direct visit, at the
Y.M.C.A.?
Mr. TAYLOR. I never had any trouble locating him at the Y.M.C.A. when I
made an attempt to. I never remember any difficulty in contacting him
there.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I gather that Marina's visit at your home terminated
at the end of about 2 weeks. Did anything occur during those 2 weeks
about which we have not talked that arrested your attention?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--nothing, outside of possibly some insights into
Marina--I mean, her personality and how she acted. There was nothing
that arrested my attention.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about that.
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--she personally seemed to be person of a number of fine
qualities--an excellent mother, possibly even doting too much upon her
child, and a clean person in her habits and, as best she could, in her
dress. And she seemed very intelligent and interested in learning all
that she could about her new environment.
Mr. JENNER. You don't mean her new environment in your home--you
mean----?
Mr. TAYLOR. I'm talking about in this country.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. TAYLOR. And I do have one recollection pursuant to this about her
desire to learn English.
Mr. JENNER. I was going to ask you about that. Go ahead.
Mr. TAYLOR. During the period that I knew them, on several occasions,
this subject came up. And Lee was in opposition to her learning
English--not--he would not come out, at least, never did around me, and
say that he didn't want her to learn English but--uh--he was or did
appear to be in opposition to it. And George De Mohrenschildt prepared
for Marina several lessons in English--and I believe that Lee later
took them away from her.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you give me as much on this series
of incidents, with respect to her learning the English language and
becoming more proficient in its use. First--as to what you based your
present comments upon, by way of what occurred, that you recall?
Something occurred to her to lead you to state as you have stated in
terms of conclusion that Lee did not wish her to learn the English
language. And, secondly, that Lee took from her the English language
lessons. I assume they were on sheets of paper. Is that correct?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That George Bouhe had prepared for her?
Mr. TAYLOR. George De Mohrenschildt.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; that George De Mohrenschildt had prepared for her?
Mr. TAYLOR. I remember asking Lee about his opposition to it on one
occasion and as I remember he told me that--uh--or brushed it aside by
saying, "It isn't necessary at this time"--something like that. And
then, of course, he did take the lessons from her.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--because, as I remember, this was the first time that I
had knowledge of her being beaten by him.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about that.
Mr. TAYLOR. As I remember it, shortly after they moved, Mrs. De
Mohrenschildt----
Mr. JENNER. They moved where? Into your home or from your home?
Mr. TAYLOR. Moved into their apartment here in Dallas--the first
apartment they had, on Elsbeth.
Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came by and told us that she had seen Marina and
that she had a black eye, I believe, and was crying and said that she
and Lee had had a fight over the lessons and they had been taken from
her, and----
Mr. JENNER. Lee had struck her?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; that Lee had struck her.
Mr. JENNER. She said that to you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; this is Mrs. De Mohrenschildt now. This is not Marina
that said that.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate that.
Mr. TAYLOR. And--not pursuant to that, but while we are speaking of
their marital troubles, I seem to remember on one occasion where Marina
left--I think this was somewhat later, probably in November----
Mr. JENNER. Left the home?
Mr. TAYLOR. Left Lee and went to stay with someone--I don't remember
who. It may have been this woman in Irving that she was living with.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine?
Mr. TAYLOR. Mrs. Paine. I do not know where she went except that I was
told that she had left him.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Anything else that comes to your mind with
respect to their relations, one with the other, and whatnot, covering
this 2-week span while she was a visitor in your home?
Mr. TAYLOR. The only other observation I would make is that--again,
it has to do with relationship between them--and that is that to
my knowledge at all the meetings between them that I was present
at during this 2-week period, there was no personal communication
between them--at least, that I was able to determine. Of course, I
couldn't understand them when they spoke to each other in Russian. But,
certainly, for this length of time, you would think that a man and
woman married would want some time alone together. They could have--we
had parks nearby, within one door of us was a big park where they could
have taken walks and been alone together and talked--but this never
happened.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mr. TAYLOR. It was just like two friends meeting. There was nothing
intimate or personal between them at these meetings.
Mr. JENNER. No expressions that you could understand or, at least,
conduct between them that would lead you to believe there were
evidences of love and affection?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. It was more platonic--a friendship relationship?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh-huh.
Mr. JENNER. Did he visit on more than one occasion in your home during
the 2-week period?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; on several occasions.
Mr. JENNER. And on these occasions, was it always that he called and
asked to come over, or were you told that he was coming and there had
been a previous arrangement--or what do you recall as to that?
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, I think perhaps once or twice Marina instigated their
meetings, would call him and he would then come.