Mr. TAYLOR. The two De Mohrenschildts. And we met the Oswalds and
also----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. What did you do? You went to the concert over
there?
Mr. TAYLOR. We went to the Oswalds' home. We had been given an address
and a time when the De Mohrenschildts would already have arrived.
Mr. JENNER. And when you arrived at this place, were your father-in-law
and mother-in-law present?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; they were.
Mr. JENNER. And where was this?
Mr. TAYLOR. This was on Mercedes Street. I do not remember the number.
Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, sir; in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. You located the apartment, as you had been advised of the
number?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; it was a house.
Mr. JENNER. It was a house--not an apartment?
Mr. TAYLOR. It was a house.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a single-family dwelling or a duplex?
Mr. TAYLOR. I'm not sure. It was either a single-family unit or a
duplex.
Mr. JENNER. You have no present recollection which one it was?
Mr. TAYLOR. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Describe to us what you saw in the way of the room or
rooms, the surroundings, whether neat and clean and whether threadbare
or new furniture--or what did it look like inside?
Mr. TAYLOR. It was a comparatively bare room, as I remember,
uncarpeted. The furniture was badly worn. It was, however,
clean--particularly so considering the number of people that were there.
Mr. JENNER. And it was orderly--not messy?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you entered that room, there were present two
persons introduced to you as Mr. and Mrs. Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Was Mrs. Oswald introduced to you as Marina Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. I believe she was.
Mr. JENNER. And your father-in-law and your mother-in-law, the De
Mohrenschildts, yourself, and your wife--anybody else present?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; several other people were present. Lee Oswald's mother
was there.
Mr. JENNER. Marguerite Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes. George Bouhe was there. A Mr. and Mrs. Hall was
there--John Hall and his estranged wife. I'm not sure of her
name--first name.
Mr. JENNER. Elena [spelling] E-l-e-n-a Hall?
Mr. TAYLOR. Elena.
Mr. JENNER. Which, of any, of these people had you known prior to the
time that you stepped into this room?
Mr. TAYLOR. Only the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. So, this was your first acquaintance with the Halls, your
first acquaintance with Marguerite Oswald, and your first acquaintance
with Lee and Marina Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And what ensued--by way of what anybody did and what
anybody said?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember but very sketchily what went on that
afternoon. There's a number of questions in my mind about what
preceded--I mean, Mrs. Oswald----
Mr. JENNER. Will you please state them and where you are stating a
question in your mind as distinct from something that was said----
Mr. TAYLOR. Well, I will come to that. I was only trying to establish
a general vagueness of recollection of the afternoon. Mrs. Oswald left
shortly after I arrived.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you mean Marguerite?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; Lee's mother.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever seen her other than on this short visit?
Mr. TAYLOR. Not except in news media. Never in person other than that
one afternoon.
Mr. JENNER. And you've had no contact with her directly since this
particular occasion you are now relating?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And the news media to which you refer is news media
activities subsequent to November 22, 1963?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. She was just there for about 5 minutes?
Mr. TAYLOR. Less than 45 minutes, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity to form an impression of her in
those few minutes?
Mr. TAYLOR. I just have a vague recollection of a somewhat plump woman
who seemed to be--uh--out of place in the present crowd that was there
that afternoon. And she didn't seem to be particularly interested in
anything that went on--and I think that's what prompted her to leave.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an opportunity to observe and form an opinion
from those observations as to the attitude between Lee Oswald and
Marguerite?
Mr. TAYLOR. I would say that it was one of estrangement between them;
that they had very little communication between them; that they
were almost strangers--and possibly even didn't like each other.
Particularly on Lee's part, I should think.
Mr. JENNER. That was your impression?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And this was, again, September of 1962--did you say?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. September 1962. Okay--I've got myself oriented.
Go ahead.
Mr. TAYLOR. And that we talked generally about some of the things
that--uh--some of Lee's observations about Russia.
Mr. JENNER. Did he speak in English or Russian?
Mr. TAYLOR. He spoke in English when talking to my wife of that time or
I; and quite often in Russian--as I believe everyone in the room spoke
Russian except my wife, myself, and John Hall. I'm not sure if John
Hall spoke Russian or not--but certainly both the De Mohrenschildts,
and George Bouhe does.
Mr. JENNER. George Bouhe, both of the De Mohrenschildts--your
mother-in-law and father-in-law and both the Oswalds--Lee and Marina?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. In addition to that, there was Mrs. Hall.
Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Hall also spoke Russian?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Neither you nor your then wife spoke Russian?
Mr. TAYLOR. She had a knowledge of Russian but certainly not enough
to converse with them. She could understand some Russian when it was
spoken to her, but could not speak but just a few words.
Mr. JENNER. Could she follow a normal conversation between two others
who were speaking so each could understand the other, but not any
attempt to slow down and what-not in order to enable her to try and
pick up?
Mr. TAYLOR. I imagine they would have had to have spoken very plainly
and slowly and using simple words for her to have understood any of it.
Mr. JENNER. I believe I interrupted you at a point where you stated
that you talked generally about some of Lee's experiences and
observations about Russia. Would you continue from that point,
indicating as best you can now recall, what was said about Lee's
experiences in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. It's difficult to remark specifically about what we talked
of that day. Perhaps it would be better if I--uh--told you all I can
remember that he said about Russia on several occasions now rather
than--because I cannot remember specifically what we discussed on that
day.
Mr. JENNER. All right. So we can get one point in the record--I'll
probably ask more specifically about the different occasions later on.
But give us a running account such as you have indicated you desire to
make.
Mr. TAYLOR. All right. Lee, on various occasions, and I discussed
the life that he led in Russia, his experiences in Russia, and his
general observations about it. I guess I should best start with his
observations of family life there.
He and Marina lived in an apartment. It was about 10 x 14. And he
remarked that all families in Russia lived in apartments of this
approximate size regardless of the size of the families--that there
were no private residences as we think of them. And that six family
units would be grouped around a community kitchen and lavatory, and
where all the families shared the same facilities. And that he and
Marina did live in this manner. That he worked as a sheet-metal
fabricator in the town of Minsk, and received for his remuneration
for his work 45 rubles a month--which was the minimum, he said, that
everyone in Russia receives whether they work or not.
He went into some detail about what is received directly from the
State without payment. In other words, what services a Russian citizen
receives in what we would call socialized services--such as medicine.
A Russian citizen does not have to pay for medical services; the
house--apartment, a place to live, a Russian citizen does not have to
pay for it. There is no charge for this. And we also discussed what
other people made. I believe he said Marina received 180 rubles a month
for her work as a pharmacist. And that she had received training in
that. And we discussed their school system somewhat--how a student
that worked hard is allowed to continue with his schooling, whereas a
student that either doesn't work hard or isn't capable is taken only to
a level of which they are capable and then put to work.
And we went on and discussed their financial system a little bit
further, and I learned that a person does get raises in a job, that
salaries--once you are given a job, why your salary does increase as
you continue through the years on a skilled job.
Mr. JENNER. As your skills increase?
Mr. TAYLOR. No; at the same job.
Mr. DAVIS. As your age increases?
Mr. TAYLOR. In other words, for length of time at your machine, for
example. When you first come to work, like Lee, and you make 45 rubles
a month, as he does it for so many years or for such a length of time,
he gets a raise over and above that.
Mr. JENNER. Then, that increase comes purely as a matter of passage of
time and has no relation to skill?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about--take the example he
gave--machine operator--if the machine operator next to Oswald, for
example--take a hypothetical person--is much more skillful then Oswald,
is the compensation the same?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--to my knowledge, it would be.
Mr. JENNER. That's the impression you received?
Mr. TAYLOR. That is the impression I received. I believe he said that
someone doing his job, by the time they reach retirement age--I don't
remember what that was--would be receiving something just under 200
rubles a month for performing the same task.
Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate a comparative relationship between the
ruble and the dollar--to give you some notion of what 45 rubles a
month, for example, or 200 rubles a month meant in terms of American
money?
Mr. TAYLOR. I asked Lee that question, as I remember, and he told me
that a comparison was difficult because of the socialized or free
services given to the citizen by the Government; that, for example, out
of his 45 rubles a month that he had to buy little other than food
and clothing; and that the 45 rubles a month would buy food, a bare
minimum, and sufficient clothing to clothe one individual.
Mr. JENNER. Liberally? Or just enough to get along?
Mr. TAYLOR. Just enough to get going on--in both cases. And that his
impression--the impression he left with me was that a person needed
little else as far as entertainment and so on was concerned, these
things were held by the State so that--uh--to get the families out of
these cramped quarters, that everything--and constant entertainment in
some form--athletics, or occasional motion pictures, different kinds of
stage presentations--were held nightly away from the home, so that the
families could get out of the cramped quarters and wouldn't feel this.
Mr. JENNER. It was all designed, in part at least, with that objective
in mind--of getting people out of their cramped quarters or room
apartments, into theatres and concert halls and athletic events?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right. And we discussed travel for the average
Russian citizen--which is nonexistent. A person that----
Mr. JENNER. Now, you are telling us things he said to you?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; to the best of my memory I am telling you.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your ability? You are not rationalizing or
speculating from things you have read in works published with respect
to life in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. You are trying to do your best to tell us what he said?
Mr. TAYLOR. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. TAYLOR. He said that for the average worker or citizen in Russia
that travel was nonexistent; that a person that grew up in Minsk would
probably spend his whole life without venturing far from the city. That
living areas like the apartment he lived in were built around factories
so that a person in a job like his, he wouldn't even probably know what
was across on the other side of the city. And this is just about the
end, at least, to my easy recollection of the things that we discussed.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the context of 180 rubles a month
earned by Marina and 45 rubles a month earned by Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember any specific comments that he made
about that. The only thing I remember in this regard was that he did
mention at one time that Marina had a higher education than he had and
that--uh--I don't believe I ever heard him say anything else about it.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, you didn't raise the question?
Mr. TAYLOR. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say that Marina, after they married, that Marina
worked as well as he?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember whether she worked after they were married
or not.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about custom and habit in Russia that
wives worked?
Mr. TAYLOR. Yes; he mentioned that most wives--most women do work. He
didn't, as I remember, go into any specifics about it. I don't remember
much being said about it other than that most women do work--or, I
should say, they are encouraged to work.
Mr. JENNER. Did he state or did he imply, do you have any impression on
his reaction toward this life in Russia?
Mr. TAYLOR. He--uh--oh, he indicated throughout our discussions that
he was dissatisfied with the life of the average Russian citizen; that
they didn't have any freedoms, as we think of freedom, in other words,
to go get in our car and go where we want to, do what we want to, or
say what we want to; that, generally speaking, they did not have this
privilege as we enjoy it.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about any privileges or any activities
on his part that were different from--that is, that were accorded
him--that were different from those accorded Russian people or
foreigners, let us say, in Russia, having circumstances or work
comparable to his? This is, was he treated or accorded benefits
different from or in addition to those which would normally have been
accorded him?
Mr. TAYLOR. I think he felt like that the situation that the Russians
put him into--in other words, the environment they put him into--- was
less than he had anticipated. This is only an impression now.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know.
Mr. TAYLOR. It was never--we never discussed this. But I always felt
like that he was disappointed that they put him in a factory forming
sheet metal and didn't give him what he felt was something important to
do.
Mr. JENNER. That is, did you have the impression, in your contacts with
him discussing his life in Russia, that he had an opinion of himself
that was such that he felt he was not being accorded that which at
least his ambitions and desires, he thought, warranted?
Mr. TAYLOR. I think that's true. He didn't--uh--I think he expected,
as a former American, to be treated as something special--as though he
were a rarity, because he had left this country and gone there, and
that they would have treated him with a red carpet, so to speak. Of
course, he was very disappointed what they actually gave him.
Mr. JENNER. And your statement that he was very disappointed in what
he actually received--did he say that to you? Was it more than just an
impression on your part?
Mr. TAYLOR. Uh--he never said that. It's only an impression.