The testimony of Thomas M. Ray was taken at 12:10 p.m., on March 25,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis,
assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ray, would you rise and raise your right hand?
(Complying.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. RAY. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized staff members to
take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority which was granted
to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963,
and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. It is my understanding that
Mr. Rankin wrote to you and your wife last week and told you I would
contact you to take your testimony.
Mr. RAY. Oh, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Enclosed with that letter were copies of the Executive
Order and joint resolution and a copy of the rules of the Commission's
procedure relating to the taking of testimony. Did you receive the
letter?
Mr. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it contain copies of the documents I referred to?
Mr. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Technically, the Commission's letter requires the witness
to be given 3 days' notice prior to the time they have to testify
although that notice can be waived. I understand you did not receive
the letter until Monday because it was misdirected to the wrong post
office.
Mr. RAY. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. But I assume you are prepared to go ahead with your
testimony at this time?
Mr. RAY. I sure am; don't want to come over here again.
Mr. LIEBELER. The testimony we want this time from you relates
basically to some conversations that were had in late 1962 concerning
the background of Lee Harvey Oswald. First of all, would you state your
full name for the record?
Mr. RAY. Do I have to give my middle name?
Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't ordinarily use it, you don't.
Mr. RAY. Thomas M. Ray.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thomas M. Ray. What is your address, sir?
Mr. RAY. Route 3, Detroit.
Mr. LIEBELER. Texas?
Mr. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment, sir?
Mr. RAY. We have a dairy farm which my wife operates with the help of a
hired hand and my supervision and I also am a commission salesman for
Sam Weiss in Paris who is the consignee of Gulf Oil in Paris, and right
now I am right in the middle of changing my place of employment. I am
going on the road for Paris Milling Co. the 15th of this next month as
assistant sales manager and I have been with Mr. Weiss for about 9-1/2
years.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a native-born American, aren't you, Mr. Ray?
Mr. RAY. Right; born in Paris, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are married to Natalie Ray, is that correct?
Mr. RAY. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And your wife is a native of Russia; is that right?
Mr. RAY. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which
you met and married your wife?
Mr. RAY. Well, I was stationed in Wiesbaden and as you probably already
know there were a lot of displaced persons over there, and the army
used these displaced persons for various duties, you know, kitchen
work and things like that and I met her there during the time that she
and some other girls came to work for our outfit. All we had to do was
go get them, you know, feed them and transport them back and forth and
feed them and that's where I met her, in Wiesbaden.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then you were subsequently married and you brought her
back to the United States; is that correct?
Mr. RAY. Yes, sir; after a length of time during which I was later
discharged there and worked for the U.S. Force headquarters in
Frankfurt.
(At this point in the hearing, Mr. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney
general of Texas leaves the room.)
Mr. RAY. [continuing]. I was employed there about, well, I think
actually I was on the payroll until they sent me back to New York which
would have been 16, 17 months, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were employed as a civilian is that correct?
Mr. RAY. Civilian employee of the Government.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you an officer or enlisted man; what was your rank
when you met your wife?
Mr. RAY. Buck sergeant.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you incur any difficulty when you tried to marry your
wife when you were in Germany?
Mr. RAY. At various times it looked like we were running into stumps
but we got over them. At times it looked like they were going to send
all the Russian nationals back to Russia and I even made a trip to
Paris, France, once to try to talk to the Russian Embassy there and
never got to see him. I think along about that time the Government
stepped in and kind of protected these people that did not want to go
back, you know, and things kind of let up then and we were left about
our business for awhile; there after the war, they were trying to get
all the Russian nationals back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife have to obtain the permission of Russian
authorities before she could marry you?
Mr. RAY. I don't think so. Now I'm not sure on that point. I wouldn't
say for sure one way or the other; it has been so long ago.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was your purpose in going to Paris to try and see
the Russian Embassy, to get permission to keep her here?
Mr. RAY. To keep her from being sent back to Russia. You know it was
during that time that they were trying to send them all back.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald and
his wife, Marina?
Mr. RAY. I met them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us the circumstances surrounding your
meeting them, where was it, what happened?
Mr. RAY. Well, do you want to start from the beginning?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just tell us the story in your own words as to how
you came to meet the Oswalds and what happened, what the extent of your
contact was.
Mr. RAY. Well, I tell you how it happened. This Ed Harris and his
wife that live in Georgetown, his wife had seen a magazine article or
something about my wife and had gotten in touch and they had gotten
acquainted and they had visited us a time or two, you know, and,
actually, we knew none of these people at the party before we came over
here. We came and we met them over here.
Mr. LIEBELER. At the party?
Mr. RAY. No; we met them at a hotel and went to the party with them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the people that you met?
Mr. RAY. Ed Harris and his wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had not met the Harrises before you came to Dallas to
go to the Ford party?
Mr. RAY. Oh, yes; I say they were the only people we knew before we
went to this party.
Mr. LIEBELER. The party we are referring to is the party at the home of
Declan P. Ford?
Mr. RAY. Yes, and actually the arrangements for us to come along were
made from our home. Mrs.--Ed's wife, Mrs. Harris--called Mrs. Ford
from our house and found out, you know, when the party was going to be
and made arrangements to bring us along, or at least told her that we
were coming or something. I don't understand this Russian that goes
on when they start talking Russian. I don't know everything that was
said but that's the way we happened to be at the party. We went along
with the Harrises from Georgetown; at least we met them in Dallas and
went to the party with them and that was the party that was on Friday
night and we stayed over Saturday and we went back to the Ford's on
Saturday night and then some--and visited awhile and stayed over until
Sunday and Sunday afternoon we visited some other people that were at
the party. But the only time I had any contact whatsoever with Oswald
was at the party and frankly, I vaguely remember meeting him because
when there's quite a few people at a party like that you don't get
acquainted with all of them. I got acquainted with a few but I didn't
get acquainted with Oswald or his wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any conversation that you had with Oswald
at all?
Mr. RAY. Nothing at all, no conversation at all, just no more than a
handshake or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did not form any impression of him that you can
remember at the moment, is that correct?
Mr. RAY. No, I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about his wife, Marina Oswald?
Mr. RAY. The only thing I remember about her is when I met her, she was
kind of small and she didn't speak any English so there I couldn't have
any conversation with her in Russian and that's as far as it went.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you try to talk to her in English?
Mr. RAY. Oh, I might have said a few words but I do not recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. It was clear to you that she did not understand English,
is that correct?
Mr. RAY. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you notice anything peculiar or out of the
ordinary about Oswald's actions at this party that appeared so to you?
Mr. RAY. Well, frankly, I just didn't pay much attention to the guy. I
wasn't around him very much.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time over the weekend either at the Ford
party or following the Ford party where the Oswalds were discussed in
your presence?
Mr. RAY. There was a time, yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that, do you remember?
Mr. RAY. That was at the home of--I believe their name is Meller or
Miller.
Mr. LIEBELER. M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling], would that be right?
Mr. RAY. Well, now the lady's name was Anna Meller and her husband
was----
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be T-e-o-f-i-l [spelling]?
Mr. RAY. Yes; something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at this time?
Mr. RAY. Of course, we were there, Natalie and I and the Harrises and
Anna Meller and her husband and it seems like this lady from Houston
was there. I believe she was from Houston.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember her name?
Mr. RAY. No; I don't now.
Mr. LIEBELER. B-i-g-g-e-r-s [spelling]; does that ring a bell with you?
Mr. RAY. What was the first name?
Mr. LIEBELER. Tatiana.
Mr. RAY. Yes, I believe she was there that Sunday afternoon. I believe
she was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was anybody else there; do you remember George Bouhe?
Mr. RAY. Oh, yeah; George was there. I was trying to think. I got
acquainted with George. He's one I got acquainted with.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Lydia Dymitruk being there?
Mr. RAY. Well, I might.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't want you to remember if you don't really.
Mr. RAY. Well, I don't really right now. I don't really remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what the conversation about the Oswalds was to
the best of your recollection.
Mr. RAY. The thing that I remember most was George telling us what a
nut he was. It seemed that George had tried to help him and I think
the Fords had tried to help him and maybe the Frank Rays or some of
this group, you know, had tried to help him get adjusted and tried to
help Mrs. Oswald get adjusted to the American way of life and frankly,
George Bouhe came out and told me he said he was a damn nut.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you any specific reasons for his opinion?
Mr. RAY. Well, nothing real specific but it seemed that he wasn't too
good to his wife. He didn't treat her as they thought he should. He
wasn't real good to her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Bouhe tell you that Oswald was reported to have
beaten Marina up?
Mr. RAY. I think that came into the conversation, too, and that she had
gone and stayed a couple weeks with somebody. I don't know if it was
the Fords or the Rays or who it was but that I think was the situation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Anyway, as far as you can recall Bouhe indicated that he
was pretty much at the end of his rope as far as Oswald was concerned?
Mr. RAY. Yeah.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did not have a very high opinion of Oswald?
Mr. RAY. No; he did not have a high opinion of Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else there express an opinion about Oswald
along these lines as far as you can remember?
Mr. RAY. Well, you know, sitting down at a table having coffee and tea
and everybody talks a little but what George said about him impressed
me more than anything else that was said. I am sure that the others did
have things to say but frankly I was not interested in the guy.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of what anybody else said
at this point?
Mr. RAY. At this point I couldn't tell you what anybody else said; no.
I am sure there was a discussion among the group. We were having coffee
and cake and what-not and the subject came up about the Oswalds and
that's the way it went.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any discussion on the question of whether
or not Oswald might be a Russian agent?
Mr. RAY. I don't know whether that was discussed or not. It seems to me
like somebody brought the subject up. It might have been my wife for
all I know but we were wondering since he had left the United States
and wanted to be a Russian citizen and had been over there, the time
that he spent in Russia, why the hell did they let him back in; you
know what I mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. The United States you mean?
Mr. RAY. Yeah; why did they take him back and how--the question in my
mind was how did he get his Russian wife out of Russia. It just looked
odd to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was the question in your mind as to how he got his wife
out partly related to the difficulties you had had?
Mr. RAY. I knew the difficulties I had had and of course I have known
the relations between the Americans and the Russians since the war and
you know, the cold war and it cools off and it gets hot and I wondered
at the time how the hell he got his wife out of Russia without so much
trouble or maybe he had a lot of trouble getting her out but it did
look odd to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that subject discussed at this time you can remember
amongst the group there; did George Bouhe offer any opinion on this
question?
Mr. RAY. I would say it could have been discussed and I cannot say
whether it was or was not, you know that has been quite some time ago
and it's hard to remember. I think the whole deal was discussed, you
know, pretty well. We might have discussed that. I think we did but I
wouldn't say for sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if there was a conversation going on in
Russian while you were there or did they speak in English--the people
that were at the house?
Mr. RAY. Most of it was in English; now I am sure there was some
Russian conversation going on because Ed Harris' wife irritates me to
death with her Russian. If she starts talking to my wife, it's Russian
and it just--I just get the drift of the conversation and that's all.
I mean it is very rude the way she goes about it. She enjoys talking
to Natalie and Natalie enjoys talking to her in Russian but it kind of
leaves Ed and I out when we are together.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether the group came to any conclusion
on this question as to whether Oswald might have been an agent? I don't
want you to testify to something that you don't remember but do you
remember whether the point was made that Oswald did not appear to have
good connections here and he had trouble getting a job and holding a
job and he did not appear to be a responsible individual and for these
reasons, these reasons would lead you to conclude that he probably was
not a Russian agent. Do you remember any conversation along these lines?
Mr. RAY. There could have been because I believe that was discussed and
I believe George Bouhe might have said that he was such a nut that the
Russians would not want him or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say you believe is that that you have a faint
recollection to that effect, is that what you mean when you say you
believe?
Mr. RAY. I have a faint recollection of discussing that possibility,
see.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say you believe what you are really saying
is that it seems likely that this might have been discussed or it
is probable that it was discussed but you do not have any firm
recollection?
Mr. RAY. No; I do not have any firm recollection about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and your wife have any discussions about the
Oswalds after you left Dallas and went back to Blossom or to Detroit
prior to the assassination?
Mr. RAY. I am sure we did but at the time of the assassination I had
completely forgotten, you know, that the guy even existed but I am sure
we talked about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of what your conversation
might have been?
Mr. RAY. I know my wife was concerned because they let him back in the
country.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she was concerned?
Mr. RAY. Well, she was kind of afraid he might be a Russian spy, that
they might have sent him back for something.
Mr. LIEBELER. She expressed that feeling to you?
Mr. RAY. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go up to the date of the assassination. Do you
recall any conversations with your wife at that time about Oswald's
involvement in the assassination or his alleged involvement in the
assassination?
Mr. RAY. Well, I was working that day, of course, and by the time I got
home it was all on television, you know, and they had captured Oswald
and she had seen his picture on television and she told me that was the
guy we met at the party. I said "What guy?" She said, "Oh, you know,
the guy that married the Russian girl and came back over, you know,
brought her back." Well, of course, I remembered that but she sometimes
misunderstands things and I thought possibly that she could be
mistaken, see. She told me "That's the guy that killed the President.
I saw him on television and they said he is the one that killed the
President." Well, I still thought perhaps she could be mistaken and
so the next morning I had her find these names and addresses of these
people and I called this George Bouhe and asked him if that was the
guy that we thought it was. He said "Yes, it was" and we had a short
conversation and he told me he had been out to get a newspaper and said
it was all in the papers and I could read about it. But, at the time
I called him he didn't remember me just right quick. I mean a year
had gone by, a year or more had gone by or maybe it wasn't quite a
year or something like that but I had to tell him who I was before he
remembered me and then of course after he remembered me, well, he told
me "Yeah, that's the guy."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussion with Bouhe as to whether or
not Bouhe thought that Oswald was really guilty or really could have
been the man who really did assassinate the President?
Mr. RAY. He said something about that he was trying to figure out how
Oswald could have been at that place at that time and another place
at another time. He couldn't figure how Oswald could have been at all
those places in that short length of time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what
he said? Can you remember anything more than that? In other words, at
this point Bouhe expressed some doubt with the stories?
Mr. RAY. He expressed some doubt that in that way he could not figure
how Oswald could have been in the building where the gun was fired and
then later killed the policeman so many blocks away. I don't know how
many blocks away it was and later apprehended in this----
Mr. LIEBELER. Texas Theatre.
Mr. RAY. Movie theater. He was trying to figure out how he got from
place to place in a short length of time. There seemed to be a little
doubt in his mind at the time I talked to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any doubts as to Oswald's involvement
based on his judgment of Oswald's character? Your wife testified and
you did, too, to some extent that Bouhe was fed up with Oswald and did
not think very much of him, didn't think him very capable or thought he
was no account is the term your wife used. Did you have any discussion
with Bouhe at this time when you talked to him on the phone?
Mr. RAY. I don't know but there was something said about--now, George
was trying to justify himself in his association with Oswald, see. He
said something about that the only thing he was guilty of was trying
to help the guy; do you know what I mean? He had tried to help the guy
when he first came back and he said, "If that's a crime, I'm guilty." I
remember that statement.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express any concern as to his own safety or did he
tell you that he thought he was going to have difficulty because of his
previous association with Oswald?
Mr. RAY. No; he didn't say a word about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think his statements about being guilty of trying
to help Oswald were just an attempt to justify himself in his own mind?
Mr. RAY. I think so; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any subsequent conversation? Have you told
us all now you can remember in your telephone conversation with Bouhe?
Mr. RAY. Well, he said it was all in the paper. "You can read it in the
paper", said "It's all in there."
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember if he said anything else?
Mr. RAY. I don't know it has been so long ago that I don't right now; I
don't remember anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Bouhe on the telephone again about
that?
Mr. RAY. About this deal?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. RAY. No; that was the only time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen him at any time?
Mr. RAY. Haven't seen him since then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to anybody else, or did you talk to anybody
else that was at this party about this assassination?
Mr. RAY. Saw the Harrises, Ed Harris and his wife. I haven't--now,
that's the only two people we've seen. I think Mrs. Ford wrote Natalie
a letter. I don't know what the letter said. I wasn't interested but
anyway she had tried to get her on the telephone or something and we
did discuss this thing in Georgetown not too long ago. I had a niece to
get married down at Kerrville so we had to go down to the wedding and
on the way back we stopped and spent a little time at the Harrises and
that's--of course, we discussed it then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk with the Harrises about this get-together
at Meller's that occurred after the Ford party at which Oswald was
discussed?
Mr. RAY. I am sure we did; now, I don't really recall. We discussed the
whole durned thing with the Harrises and I am sure that that came into
the conversation but right now, I don't remember exactly when and how
it came about, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, during this conversation with the Harrises was
there any more conversation about Oswald's possibility of being a
Russian agent?
Mr. RAY. That subject always comes up and I am sure it did then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us the best of your recollection what was
said about it?
Mr. RAY. No; I cannot because I just don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether there was any consensus or
agreement as to whether Oswald probably was or probably was not a
Russian agent?
Mr. RAY. Well, actually I don't think that the Harrises think he was a
Russian agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you that they did not think he was; how did
you get that opinion?
Mr. RAY. If they had told me that they thought he was a Russian agent I
would have remembered it. Do you know what I mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and you don't have any recollection of them ever
telling you that they thought he was?
(Mr. Davis returns to the hearing.)
Mr. RAY. No, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or telling you any reasons why they thought he might be?
Mr. RAY. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of this question as to whether or
not he was a Russian agent or might be?
Mr. RAY. Just from what little I know about it and the conversation
that we have been over, I think he needed psychiatric treatments or
something. I think he was just a damn nut like George said. Of course,
you know a lot of times that might be the kind of man that they would
want, you know, for a Russian agent.