Present-MR GUTHRIE.
GEORGE SINCLAIR SUTHERLAND, examined.
16,661. This sitting was held for the purpose of examining Mr.
Methuen before he went to England, but I have received intimation
that he is forbidden by his medical adviser from undergoing any
examination on account of his health, and I understand you have
come here to speak, to some of the points on which I wished
information from him?-Yes; he asked me to attend for that
purpose.
16,662. You have been for some years in Mr. Methuen's
service?-Yes; for eight years.
16,663. In what capacity?-I had charge of looking over the
agreements and settling with fishermen for the first five or six
years; and I have since conducted the correspondence, and taken
the management of his business.
16,664. Have you had the principal management of his business
during his absence in consequence of ill health?-I have, during
the last twelve months.
16,665. Has Mr. Methuen the largest business as a fish-curer in
Scotland, both in curing herring and cod and ling?-Yes;
particularly in curing herring, and pretty extensively in the curing
of other kinds of fish.
16,666. You don't say that he has the largest business in curing
cod and ling?-No, I would not say that.
16,667. Has he stations on every part of the Scotch coast?-Yes,
all round the east and west coasts of Scotland; also in the north of
England, and at Yarmouth; and also at Howth in Ireland.
16,668. I believe that at one time Mr. Methuen carried on business
in Shetland?-Yes.
16,669. Where were his stations there?-They were near Lerwick,
at Cumlywick and Sandwick.
16,670. Are these places about ten miles from Lerwick, near
Sandlodge?-I understand so.
16,671. Do you know the reason why Mr. Methuen gave up
business in Shetland?-He gave up business there about six years
ago, in consequence of the proprietor, Mr. Bruce, taking over the
whole boats and crews into his own hands, in order to carry on the
business himself.
16,672. Have you been in Shetland?-I have not.
16,673. Had you any acquaintance from books or otherwise with
the way in which the business was conducted there?-I had very
little experience in the Shetland business at all.
16,674. Who settled with the men in Shetland?-It was our
managers there.
16,675. Are they in Mr. Methuen's service now?-They were not
regularly in his service. There was perhaps one man for one, and
another for another year; but the books are in Leith, and they were
always checked by one party there. The clerk who checked the
books in Leith is still in Mr. Methuen's service, and he could
speak with regard to the settlement with the Shetland crews.
16,676. Did he go down to Shetland for that purpose?-He did
not. He simply checked the books after they came here.
16,677. Had Mr Methuen a shop for supplying his men with goods
in Shetland?-I am not aware that he had.
16,678. I understand he does not keep shops for that purpose at
any of the stations?-No.
16,679. Has he any stations in outlying remote places?-In the
Hebrides he has.
16,680. In those places does he carry on business efficiently
without having any shop with which to supply his men?-Yes;
they can supply themselves with what they want.
16,681. Where are those stations?-They are scattered all round
the Hebrides: in the Lewis Island, and down in the Southern
Hebrides, in the islands of Barra, Castleby, Vattersay, and the
Uists.
16,682. Are the stations where the fish are delivered usually near
the houses of the fishermen, or have they to go some distance with
them?-The fishermen in the Southern Hebrides come round from
the east coast of Scotland and go to fish there, and they build
themselves huts in which they live while they are ashore. Our
coopers and women have houses or huts erected for them also on
which they live. They take out a supply of provisions with them,
which will perhaps last half the time.
16,683. Who do that?-The women and coopers; and they are
always getting provisions back and forward when they are at the
fishing; because, in point of fact, in the southmost part of the
island of Barra and Castleby and Boisdale, there are no shops at
all. There is only one public-house in Loch Boisdale, but there are
no shops of any kind there. In the southmost island, Vattersay, is
uninhabited, and the men take out provisions and everything they
want with them, and they fish there during the six weeks of the
fishing.
16,684. Where do they get their provisions?-They take them
with them from home, or they get them sent out to them from the
east coast.
16,685. Do they purchase them themselves?-Yes.
16,686. You have nothing to do with that?-No. In sending
coopers there we allow them extra wages-what are called board
wages-during the time they are there, being so much extra per
week for going to these places and supplying themselves.
16,687. Is that the universal practice in the Lewis fisheries with
all the other fish-curers?-It is. They have coopers to whom they
allow so much extra when they are at that fishing.
16,688. But do they follow the same practice with regard to their
fisheries?-The fishermen simply get the price per cran which is
agreed upon. They are not supplied with provisions at all.
16,689. Is it not the case that there are curers in the Lewis who
have shops in Stornoway and other places?-In Stornoway they
have shops.
16,690. Are these shops usually kept by the curers?-The curers
usually advance money to their fisheries; or if they are from home,
they give them a line to the merchant's shop with which they can
get any small provisions they require during the time they are out.
[Page 428]
16,691. But do the families of the resident fishermen get supplies
from the curers in Stornoway?-Yes; they usually give them a line
if they are in poor circumstances.
16,692. Have you any West Highland fishermen in your
employment in the Hebrides?-A good many. Last year we had
altogether about 270 boats both from the east and west coast,
fishing in the Hebrides, at the west coast fishing.
16,693. Did you find that the West Highland men and men resident
in the Hebrides were able to supply themselves with provisions in
the same way as the east coast men?-No. They are not the same
class at all, they are not in the same good circumstances as the east
coast men. We usually advance meal and money and materials
before they can go to the fishing at all.
16,694. Do you give supplies of meal?-Yes, we usually give
them some.
16,695. But I suppose that is merely for their own use during the
fishing?-Yes. There is a shop in Stornoway upon which we give
the men an order to get any meal they want; but, these men are of
the poorer class.
16,696. Have you had any difficulty in getting fishermen in
consequence of the necessity they are under for getting advances,
and the habit they have got into of receiving advances from the
curers in Stornoway?-No; I cannot say that there ever was a short
supply of fishermen. At some shops the fishermen had fallen
behind in a bad season, and required some advances before they
could commence another season, and in that case the merchants
have given them the advance they required, and the men fished for
them, as it were, without a stated agreement.
16,697. Is that the case everywhere, or are you speaking of a
particular locality?-I am speaking more particularly of the
northern and western coasts. The practice is quite different along
the Moray coast, where the men are in better circumstances, owing
to the fact that they have lately had a number of years of successful
fishings.
16,698. What is the kind of agreement which you usually make
with your fishermen in the Hebrides?-The fishermen who are in
independent circumstances agree to a stated price per cran, while
the fishermen who require advances usually agree to what is called
the current rates given to debted boats. That is usually is to 1s. to
2s. under the free crews; 1s. below has been the usual custom.
These have been the general terms of debted boats.
16,699. Is that exactly the same system as is followed at Wick?-
Yes; the same system prevails all round the north and west coasts.
16,700. Is there a large proportion of the men in the Lewis fishery
who fish upon the terms you have last mentioned?-In some years
there are more than others. Of course, if they had had a successful
season, there would be fewer of them fishing on these terms next
season.
16,701. Will there be one half of them, on the average, who
engage on these terms?-Yes; I should say there would be one
half of them on the west coast, but not on the east coast.
16,702. In speaking of these men, do you refer to men who are the
owners themselves of the vessels in which they fish? I understand
that the vessels generally are owned by one or two men, and that
the rest are hired men?-That is the case on the east coast, but it is
not so on the west. There they usually share and share alike, and
probably four or five men have a boat between them, becoming
jointly liable.
16,703. Then each man who has a share of a boat gets a share of
the fish which are taken by that boat?-That is usually the way.
The boat gets one share which goes to the skipper of the boat,
as they call him, and the rest of the men get equal shares. In the
herring fishing at Wick, the usual way is for one man to own the
boat and materials, and to agree so many hired men for the fishing.
16,704. Do you think that a system of paying the men when they
deliver their fish would have the effect of keeping them from
getting so much into debt as they do now?-I think it would be
difficult to work such a system in the far north, or in the Western
Hebrides. We could not pay them on delivery there, so as to keep
them out of debt. It would certainly be an advantage for all parties
concerned if the fishermen would agree to be paid by a price on
delivery, as is done on the Fifeshire coast; but from the fact of
their being so heavily in debt, and so much encumbered in these
northern places, they require some advance before they are able to
go to the fishing at all; and it is only perhaps one half of the
fishermen who are in an independent position to make terms.
16,705. You think such a system would be an advantage to you
because it would simplify your accounts?-Yes; and it would save
a great many debts. We reckon that probably 50 per cent. of the
amount due by those debted boats is lost to us altogether in our
books.
16,706. In what way does that happen?-They run into debt, and
get so hopeless, that we have to mark them off as bad debts.
16,707. Does that happen even in your case where you have no
shop?-Yes, even where we have no shop or anything of the kind;
because, when the fishermen get so hopelessly into debt they don't
care what they do, and very often they throw up the fishing
altogether and leave the debt. We have had thousands of pounds
knocked off in that way as bad debts.
16,708. In what way were these debts incurred?-By advancing
the fishermen and trying to get them clear.
16,709. Do you mean advancing them money?-Advancing them
money and materials, such as lines and hooks, and always trying
to get them to fish clear; but instead of that, some of them go so
much behind that their case becomes, quite hopeless.
16,710. Are you speaking now of the boat-owners at Wick and the
sharesmen in the Lewis fishing?-Yes; there are a good many
debts incurred among them.
16,711. Do these men have ledger accounts in your books, or is
there an account for each crew?-We have no individual accounts
with the partners. The account is usually headed, So and so and
crew, and the place where he belongs to.
16,712. But if you kept a shop and supplied them with goods-
as you say the curers in Stornoway do who have shops-there
could then be individual accounts in your books?-The curers
in Stornoway have not got shops, but they usually give the
fishermen an order upon a particular shop where they can go
and get supplies. The fish-curers are not the owners of the shops
themselves.
16,713. In Wick, I understand, a somewhat similar custom prevails
of giving orders upon shops?-Yes; the orders are given upon the
shops to get the fishermen supplied during the time of the fishing.
16,714. Do you think it would be practicable to settle the accounts
at these shops at shorter intervals than at the end of the season?-I
think if it could possibly be done, it would be an advantage to both
parties; but there is a difficulty in the way, owing to many of the
men being in such a poor position.
16,715. Is there not a difficulty in the men in the Lewis and at
Barra being so far from their homes, and so distant from banks?-
No. The men at Barra, who fish for five or six or seven weeks,
return to the east coast when their fishing is done, and they are
paid immediately for their fish. They get what money they require
there to pay each other, and when they come home they are all
settled with and paid off, so that they get their money immediately.
16,716. Therefore there would be no advantage in paying them on
delivery of their fish?-None whatever. If they are paid at once at
the end of the fishing, it is all they need.
16,717. At the Lewis would there not be an advantage in paying
the resident men week by week, so that they could have money
with which to supply themselves?-If that system were practicable
it might be an advantage.
16,718. But even there in your business the settlement takes place
within two or three months?-Yes. In many [Page 429] cases it
takes place immediately after the fishing is over.
16,719. And the fishing season, I understand, lasts from May to the
end of June?-Yes; or the beginning of July. It lasts for eight
weeks.
16,720. Why is it not practicable to pay the men more
frequently?-On account of the circumstances the men are
in; and besides, a good many of them I know have great
objections to being paid by the price of the day. They always
wish to be engaged at a price to be paid at the end of the season.
They are afraid of the price rising and falling. One day it may be
high, and the next day it may be very low; so that they prefer a
stated price during the whole season, and then they are settled.
16,721. Could you not fix that stated price at the beginning of the
season?-Not if we were to pay by the price of the day. If the
system pursued in Fife could be got to work in these northern and
western places, it would be a decided advantage to the fishermen
themselves if they agreed to it.
16,722. Have you tried them?-I have often spoken to the
fishermen about that. I have been round there agreeing and
settling with the boats, and I have often mentioned the subject,
but they have always said that such a thing would not work there
at all.
16,723. Do you know the system of settlement in Shetland with
the cod and ling fishermen?-Not from my own knowledge.
16,724. The men there are engaged early in the spring, or even as
early as Martinmas, to fish for the following season. Some of
them are bound to do so without any agreement; but the
understanding is, that they are to get the current price at the end
of the season,-the season being from May until about 12th
August for the cod and ling fishing,-and the settlement does not
take place until November or December, and even later?-The
reason for that is, that in Shetland after the fishing is over it takes
two or three months until the fish are cured, so that they cannot
state a price to the men in Shetland until after the curing has been
completed.
16,725. Are not the sales made in September or October?-Yes;
and they then arrange what the price is to be.
16,726. But you say that the delay in settling there for the cod and
ling fishing arises from the way in which the current price is fixed
at the end of the season?-Yes; it is merely because the fish
cannot be cured within a month or so.
16,727. And you cannot sell them and ascertain the price until
they are cured?-That is the usual way in which they do. They
ascertain the price at the end of the season when the fish are cured,
and they settle with the fishermen accordingly.
16,728. From your experience of fishermen in different parts of
Scotland, do you think they are likely to be more prosperous when
they are paid by the price of the day than when they are paid upon
long settlements?-I think it would be a great advantage to
themselves, and also to the fish-curer, if they were to be paid by
the price of the day.
16,729. Why would it be an advantage to the fishermen?-
Because they would get simply what is due to them, and the
fish-curer would not run any risk from the men getting into debt.
Along the Fifeshire coast the fishermen are not in debt to the
fish-curers, simply because they get a price per cran per day, and
don't require any advances. In the northern districts, on the
contrary, owing to the number of fishermen always getting new
boats and materials, they require advances to fit them out; and the
system of paying by the price of the day not being in force there,
they generally get heavily into debt, and many of them never come
out of it.
16,730. Is it the case that on the coast of Fife, and in the eastern
district of Banff, the fishermen are not in debt to the curers at
all?-Yes; they are usually a better class of fishermen altogether
on the Fife and Buckie coasts.
16,731. On the east coast do the men get supplies of lines and
boats from the fish-curers?-Very seldom. They are all in a pretty
good position; and two or three of them can take a boat between
them, and fish by the price of the day, so that they always know
what they are to have by the end of the week. They are all paid
once a week, or even oftener, and they scarcely ever get into debt.
16,732. In Fifeshire, however, they have a fresh market to a
considerable extent?-Yes.
16,733. Is it not owing to that that the system of frequent payments
has come into force there?-That may be the reason partly. There
are always a good many English buyers among the fishermen
there, and the men would not trust them, as it were, for more than
a day or two, because they are not thoroughly acquainted with
them; but in the case of fish-curers who are well known to the
men, they never think about settling until the end of the season.
16,734. Is that the case even in Fifeshire?-Yes; but in some cases
with the local curers in Fife, the boats agree by a price per cran.
16,735. Is there a large proportion of the boats so agreed?-Not
now. At Stonehaven, about one half of the boats fishing there are
agreed for the whole fishing. The others are engaged, as it were,
by the price of the day.
16,736. Do these boats get an equal price for their green fish with
those who sell them on the nail?-Sometimes, if a heavy fishing
comes in, the men will only get a few shillings per cran for them;
and it is that uncertainty with regard to the price which they may
get that makes a great many of the northern fishermen agree by a
stated price throughout it whole season.
16,737. Do these men who agree in that way get supplies or
advances throughout the course of the season?-They usually do
if they require them.
16,738. Are these advances made in money or in goods?-In both.
16,739. How do they get them in goods? Have the curers not
shops from which they supply them?-The curers have not got
shops, but they will give them an order. They become security to
the merchants, and give the men an order for what they may want,
the curer becoming responsible for it.
16,740. Where cod and ling are sold to a curer in Shetland, for
instance, is there any reason why they should not be paid in cash
on the nail according to the price of the day? Assuming always
that the fishermen are willing to agree to that, is there any reason
in the nature of the business why that system should not be
followed there?-The nature of the business is such that the
fish-curers themselves cannot ascertain what price to give to the
fishermen until the end of the season, and the fishermen and the
fish-curers usually agree together that they are to get the current
price, that is the price which the fish-curer can afford to give them
at the end of the season, when he has once ascertained what it is.
16,741. In that way the fishermen take part of the risk of the
market?-Yes.
16,742. Is there any reason why the fishermen should not take that
risk, and be paid according to the market price of the day when he
delivers his fish?-None whatever. They could get a stated price
for every fish they catch.
16,743. And that price might be higher or it might be lower?-It
might be; or they could agree to fish for so many weeks at a
certain price per fish overhead.
16,744. They might agree at the commencement of the season to
fish for a stated price, or they might allow it to fluctuate from
week to week?-They might do either; or they might agree to be
settled with at the end of their six weeks' fishing, in a similar
manner to what they do at the herring fishing, when they settle
with the men immediately upon the fishing being done.
16,745. Is there any reason why they should not actually receive
payment for their fish weekly or fortnightly, even in remote places
like Shetland where the distances are great?-There is no great
reason why they should not have an agreement of that sort because
it is [Page 430] practicable even in the West Highlands, and round
the Caithness and Buckie coasts.
16,746. Have you to do so in many cases?-We have. This season
there has been an extraordinarily large cod fishing, and the boats
are agreed at 1s. to 1s. 3d. for cash, with a few pounds of bounty to
the fishermen. There are perhaps 8 or 10 curers in each place, and
each of them has perhaps 10 or 12 boats fishing to him. These
fishermen put in all their fish to their various curers, and they are
paid as soon as the fishing is done. They agree from December
until the middle or the end of March,-20th March is the date this
year,-and upon that date they get settled as soon as the fishing is
finished, and if they require any money during the fishing they get
it to account.
16,747. Then the price is fixed at the beginning of the season?-It
is fixed before the men go to sea.
16,748. And the settlement takes place at the end of the season?-
Yes; and the men get any money to account which they require, in
order to carry them through the season. That applies to Stornoway
and Gairloch, and all round the Caithness and Sutherland coasts,
and also to the Fifeshire and Buckie district for this very season.
These crews are made up of the local men, natives; they have
usually 6 or 7 men in a boat, and they share and share alike.
16,749. I suppose they do require to have part of the price of their
fish advanced to them during winter, and before the general
settlement at the end of the season?-Some of them would, but
others would not.
16,750. Do you know whether these fishermen have farms of their
own?-No; the fishermen on the east coast have no farms. They
live in fishing villages, like the village of Newhaven; but in
Gairloch and in Stornoway they usually have little crofts.
16,751. Even with these men would it not be an advantage to settle
fortnightly? Would there be any practical difficulty in doing so if
the men wished it?-No; if they liked to take the risk.
16,752. Would there be any risk?-There would be no risk if the
price was fixed at the commencement of the season; but if they
were to fish by the price of the day the men would not like it,
because in the case of a great fishing the price comes down almost
to nothing, and they are always afraid of that.
16,753. When a great quantity of fish is taken the price falls
immediately, and that you say is the reason why they don't want
to fish at the price of the day?-Yes; they want a stated price, so
that they may know what they are to get, whether the fish are many
or few.
16,754. On the other hand, they would have an advantage if they
got a larger price when there was a small fishing?-Yes; but they
won't take that risk. I have often spoken to the fishermen of these
districts, especially in Buckie, about that, and suggested that they
should take the price of the day, but they always liked to have their
agreement with the bounty.
16,755. The bounty, I suppose, is intended to carry their families
through part of the season?-No; the bounty is an old custom. It
was granted by the Government to the fishermen round about
Shetland and in that quarter. A great many boats went there from
the south coast, and there usually was a bounty granted to them, I
think about 200 years ago; but that system ceased then, and the
fish-curers commenced to cure.
16,756. Were they asked to continue the bounty?-Not to continue
it; but it was only during the last ten years round the Banffshire
coast that the practice was continued. In that district there was a
scarcity of boats, and the fish-curers got so numerous that they
gave a bounty of from £5, £10, £15, and up to £30, or even £40, to
any crew who would agree to them.
16,757. Was that given as a kind of earnest?-Yes.
16,758. I suppose all the fish delivered are entered by the agent or
factor of the curer in a fish-book at the time of delivery?-Yes;
they are all tallied and extended by him.
16,759. Would it interfere with the business much for that man to
pay for the fish as he received them?-He could do it once a week
with ease. We could do it with reference to the haddock fishing all
round from the Wick coast into the Cromarty Firth, and round by
Fraserburgh. There are a great many parties fishing haddocks
there during the winter and spring, and we pay them weekly.
They are engaged by a price of so much per cwt., fixed at the
commencement of the season.
16,760. Is that an extensive fishery?-It is pretty extensive. In
some years it is very successful. This year it has not been so
successful; but that is the nature of it. So soon as the fishermen
have ceased fishing for herring, the east coast crews go to the west
coast about 1st May, and return about the end of June or 1st July.
They commence to fish upon the east coast about the 1st of July,
and continue until 10th September. They then cease for perhaps
two or three weeks, when they commence to fish haddocks until
the month of December. They have then the cod fishing; and it
continues with cod, halibut, and all fresh fish, until the middle of
March, and from the middle of March until the 1st of May, there is
comparatively nothing done. There is no engagement during that
time.
16,761. Is it the same kind of boats that are employed in all these
different kinds of fishing?-No; the fishermen have different kinds
of boats to suit the different kinds of fishing. In the herring season
the owners have hired men in their boats, and each man has his
skipper; whereas in the winter fishing five or six or seven of these
men go together and fish for themselves.
16,762. But that is still in the same kind of boat is it not?-The
half-decked boat is used at Wick; but, in fact, they have boats to
suit each fishing that they wish to go to. They usually use the large
herring boat for the cod fishing, and a smaller boat for the haddock
fishing.
16,763. What is the size of a haddock boat?-I think it is about 26
or 30 feet keel, and open. There is now usually it small deck on it.
The large herring boat is from 36 to 42 feet keel; but the boats
have increased greatly in size within the last eight or ten years.
16,764. Do you find that as the boats increase in size the fisherman
is generally more successful?-Yes. They have the advantage of
going a greater distance to sea and staying longer out when their
boats are decked, and they return with heavier takes.
16,765. Are you acquainted, from your own experience, with the
character of the boats which are used?-Yes. I have gone out to
sea and seen how the fishing was carried on.
16,766. Would you consider that a fishing community was at great
disadvantage, as compared with other communities, who used only
open six-oared boats of about 21 or 22 feet keel?-They would be
at a decided disadvantage.
16,767. Perhaps you are aware that that is the case in Shetland, and
that in the haaf fishing they go out twenty or thirty miles to sea,
and remain out only for it single night at a time?-If they had the
large lugger boats which we have on this coast, they could stay out
for several nights, having provisions with them and room for their
fish.
16,768. Are the large boats you refer to equally available for laying
long lines in very deep water and on a rocky bottom?-I cannot
say that. There would be more danger with them. They could not
work large boats so easily as they could work the small ones.
16,769. What is the depth of water in which your large boats
generally fish?-I can hardly say; but when they go out to the
banks, thirty or forty miles off, they may fish in thirty or forty
fathoms of water in the Moray Firth.
16,770. Perhaps your knowledge of the fishing does not enable you
to give much information about that?-No, not practically; but I
have gone out three or four times in the season.
16,771. Do you know any district in Scotland or in England where
the settlement with the fishermen takes place only once it year as
it does in Shetland?-I understand there are two fishings in
Shetland: the herring fishing, and the cod and ling fishing.
[Page 431]
16,772. It is the cod fishing I am speaking of. Do you know any
place except Shetland where the settlement for any kind of fishing
takes place only once a year?-I scarcely know how to answer that
question.
16,773. In Shetland the cod and ling fishing is the only one in
which they fish for the curers,-leaving the herring fishing out
of account,-and they are paid for that only once a year, a
considerable time after the end of the fishing. Do you know any of
the fishing contracts in the kingdom which are settled at so long a
period after the fishing is over?-In Orkney the fishermen are
settled with for the herring fishing of August at the end of October.
That fishing ends in the middle of September, and they are not
settled with before the end of October.
16,774. But is it not the case that, in almost all the cases with
which you are acquainted, there is a short season of from five to
six weeks, or two to three months, and a settlement takes place at
the end of it?-Yes, the final settlement takes place at the end; but
at the beginning of the herring fishing the men get an advance. As
soon as the fishing is done they get some money to clear off their
current expenses, and to pay their hired men; and then about
October or November they get a final settlement, when the
season's transactions are settled for.
16,775. That is for the herring fishing which commences when?-
It commences on 20th July, and that is their great fishing.
16,776. Then there is the Lewis herring fishing, to which a great
number of the same men who fish at Wick go?-Yes.
16,777. Is that settled before the herring fishing at Wick begins
again?-Yes; it is settled as soon as it is finished.
16,778. Then, if any of these herring fishermen go to the cod and
ling fishing in winter, that is settled for the end of that fishing
too?-Yes.
16,779. Some of them may perhaps go to the haddock fishing in
spring again, and that is settled weekly?-Yes. The haddock
fishing is usually settled weekly.
16,780. On the Moray Firth that makes up the whole fishing
seasons of the year?-It does.
16,781. And each of these is settled at its close?-Yes.
16,782. So that they will have four settlements in the course of the
year?-Yes; four settlements for the various fishings. With regard
to the men who go round to the Stornoway fishing, it would
scarcely be practicable to settle with them weekly, or before they
return home, because of their distance from home and the peculiar
nature of the business. The amount actually due to them could not
be rightly ascertained until they came home, and all their accounts
had been made up and settled.
16,783. Why is that?-Because, from the nature of our business,
there are so many places where we give the fishermen the option
to run into with their fish, and we would require all the books from
these places to be handed over to us and checked, before we could
proceed to settle with them.
16,784. Might these fish not be settled for at the station on
delivery?-We could settle for them at the station on delivery;
but we find so many mistakes occurring afterwards, that unless
the books were first checked before the fishermen were paid, we
would be apt to lose a good deal.
16,785. How do these mistakes arise?-Because the fishermen
may have delivered so many crans of herrings at a different place,
where they could not get them entered, and there are so many
fishermen of the same name, that one is often confounded with
another, unless they are known to the parties, or have 'T' names
attached to them, which are a sort of nickname. But the fishermen
are quite well pleased when they get their settlement as soon as the
fishing is done. It is only along the Fifeshire coast, and about
Stonehaven and Aberdeen, that any of the crews during the great
summer fishing for herrings are agreed, or deliver their fish by the
price of the day, or sell their fish daily.
16,786. Do you know of any other place in the kingdom, except
Shetland, where the men have a final settlement only once a year
for all the work of the year, whether cod, or ling, or herring, or
whatever it may be?-No. The same system does not prevail in
any part of the kingdom except Shetland.
16,787. Do you know any other part of the kingdom where the
curers universally keep shops to supply their fishermen with meal
and soft goods?-No. There may be an instance or two of that
kind round the coast, but I may say that I am not aware of any.
16,788. Do you know whether it is a fact that at Wick the men are
to a large extent in debt to the curers?-A great many of them are
in debt, but there are a great many independent men who are not in
debt.
16,789. I understand the men at Wick are divided into two classes:
free men and unfree men?-Yes.
16,790. The unfree men have to fish to the curers to whom they
owe money on general terms?-Yes; on the general terms of
debted boats, and they are settled with by the curer at the end of
the season. That is somewhat similar to the custom in Shetland.
The fishcurers at the end of the season find the price per cran after
they have ascertained the state of the markets, that is, during the
month of October, and then pay the unfree men the price, which is
usually 1s. per cran less than what is paid to the free boats. That
difference is made as a sort of guarantee or security for the risk
which they run in advancing boats and nets.
16,791. Is the debt incurred by the fishermen to the curer entirely
for boats and nets supplied by the curer?-Yes; and for advances
in money.
16,792. Are these advances in money made to a man to enable him
to pay his hired men, and so on?-Yes. The fish-curer has a great
deal of risk to run in fitting out a debted boat, because he usually
becomes security for the hired men's wages; and if he does so he
will require to pay them whether they make a good fishing or not.
16,793. What are the wages of the hired men?-They usually
range from £6 to £10 along the northern coast.
16,794. What is the cost of a boat at Wick?-A new boat at Wick
would cost about £120 or £130.
16,795. Does the curer frequently advance that?-He usually
advances one half of it. It is not often that any fish-curer would
give a boat to any fisherman who had not any means of his own.
16,796. They expect a fisherman to whom they supply a boat to
have some capital equal at least to the cost of one half a boat?-
Yes.
16,797. What is the cost of a drift of nets at Wick?-They usually
have 40 nets there now, and the cost of a net is about £3, so that a
boat and nets would cost about £250 altogether.
16,798. All that expense lies upon the herring fishing alone?-
Yes.
16,799. The man, if he is a free man, can use his boat for any of
the other fishings except the herring fishing?-Yes. They usually
engage also for the Lewis fishing, but not to the same fish-curer.
In that fishing he may engage to anybody he likes; but in the
herring fishing he must engage to the man who has advanced him
his boat and lines.
16,800. Would you say that two-thirds of the men at Wick are
unfree men?-No. I don't think there are above one third of the
men at Wick who are indebted men. I know every one of them
personally, from settling with them, and I have a good knowledge
of their circumstances.
16,801. Would you be surprised to hear that an extensive curer in
Wick estimated the number of free men at nearly one third, and
that the unfree men were two thirds?-I would be surprised at that;
because I know that of the number of fishermen who own boats
not above one third of them are in debt. It may happen that after a
bad fishing many of these men may get a little behind, but after a
successful fishing there are not more than one third or one fourth
of them who are in debt.
16,802. Are you speaking now only of the boat-owners?-Yes.
[Page 432]
16,803. Does a man remain bound to fish on general terms even
when his debt is reduced to a low sum, such as £20 or £30?-He is
not bound to do it, because he can find another fish-curer who will
give him that advance to enable him to pay off his old curer.
16,804. But then he would be unfree and bound to fish to this new
creditor?-The other fish-curer usually gives him the current price
of free boats, if the man is considered a good man, when the debt
comes as low as that.
16,805. Is there any line where you say that a man becomes free?
Do you consider him to be so when his debt is reduced to £50?-
When it is under £30, I think the man is considered to be a good
man.
16,806. Do you know any district, except in Shetland, where the
men are bound to fish for the landlord from whom they hold their
ground?-Along certain estates on the Moray coast there are
certain villages to which a great many fishermen belong, and I
think there is sort of feudal system of the same kind there. There
are villages on the estate of Sarklet, near Wick, and at Clyth, and
other places, where many of the fishermen have had it in their
option to leave the place altogether, and they have usually come
down to Wick and been dealt with there as free men. If they
fished in the village where they lived before, they had usually to
fish to the fish-curer who had obtained the station at groundrent
from the proprietor. It was to the advantage of the proprietor to
have the fishermen fishing for that curer, so long as they remained
on his estate. In these places the price usually ranges 1s. per cran
below the town price.
16,807. Is that because the men hold yearly tacks?-They hold
crofts year by year, and they are fishermen at the same time.
16,808. Do you know whether they pay their rent to the landlord
direct, or through the fish-curer?-They pay it twice a year, at
Candlemas and Martinmas, to the landlord; but they are not in the
same way bound as the Shetland fishermen are. They are not in
the same state of bondage.
16,809. Wherein do you think is the difference?-They are free to
leave the place when they like, and they may go down to the town
and fish; but they might incur the proprietor's displeasure if they
were to go away and leave the place altogether if their crofts were
under lease.
16,810. Are these the only cases of the kind which you know?-
They are; and they are very small in extent.
16,811. Do you know any districts where it is frequently the case
that a fisherman does not receive any money at all in payment
for his fish, but runs an account for goods which is more than
sufficient to balance the money due for the fish?-There may
be a stray case of that kind, but it is not common. Where the
fishermen are so negligent that they are hopelessly sunk in debt,
the fish-curer, of course, tries to give them as little advance as
possible, and to get them to fish as much as possible, in order that
they may get out of debt; but in some cases where they make a
poor fishing and have been heavily in debt he cannot give them
any advance in money, but he may give them an advance in goods.
16,812. Is that a common thing in your experience?-It is not.
16,813. In what districts would you say it was most common?-
Along the Caithness coast.
16,814. Can you furnish me from your books with a note of the
price cod, ling, and tusk in September, for the last ten or fifteen
years?-Yes. We usually buy from the Shetland fish-curers during
the month of August. Between May and August we often ask
quotations from them for a quantity of fish to be delivered either in
Ireland or in Leith in September or October, and they usually send
on the quotation in September. We have bought largely in that
way during the last ten years, so that I can furnish a list of the
prices.
16,815. Do you supply hooks and lines to your fishermen?-There
is a little of that done to the Gairloch and west coast fishermen,
because there are no places there from which they can supply
themselves. We buy the materials in Glasgow, and send them on
to the men, and allow them to lie at the debit of the crew's account
until they are able to pay for them. The only thing we supply
usually is cutch to fishermen.
<Adjourned>.