<Present>-MR GUTHRIE.
ANDREW JOHN GRIERSON, examined.
15,048. Are you the proprietor of the estate of Quendale?-I am.
15,049. Are you also engaged in the fish-curing business?-I am.
I have been so for 11 years.
15,050. Mr. Ogilvy Jamieson is your shopkeeper at Quendale,
and keeps a shop there for the supply of your neighbours and
fishermen?-Yes, for the supply of my fishermen primarily, and
for any one else who chooses to go to it.
15,051. The returns you have made to me show the amount of
dealing which these fishermen have had in accounts at your shop,
and also other particulars of your business?-They do. They have
been made up from my ledger for the two years which have been
selected.
15,052. Were these favourable years for the fishing, or
otherwise?-1871 was an exceedingly favourable year. I
should say that 1867 was not more than a medium year. The
price was miserable, but I had a great quantity of fish. Both
the fishing and the price were good in 1871.
15,053. How do you arrange with your men about boats? Do the
boats belong to themselves, or are they hired out?-I have no
boats. They are debited to the men.
15,054. How long does it generally take for a man to pay up the
price of his boat?-I have had no experience of these six-oared
boats, such as I have been furnishing lately, because the fishing
was entirely of saith until now.
15,055. Have you introduced larger boats lately?-Yes. I have got
the men encouraged to take them within the last three years; and I
have only supplied the large new boats within the past season.
15,056. About what number of tenants have you upon your
estate?-I can tell by referring to the copy of my valuation
return for the last year; but only one half, the smaller half, of
my property is in Dunrossness. There are 48 tenants on
Quendale and Brough, in Dunrossness.
15,057. Does that include the large farm there?-No; I am not
including myself. I am holding my own farm, and I have counted
it out. I have also counted out the Free Church minister, who
holds a house from me.
15,058. Are these 48 tenants all men who might fish?-Yes; they
don't all fish to me, but they might fish.
15,059. You have also a number of tenants in Sandsting?-Yes; I
have 108 there.
15,060. Are the tenants in Sandsting at liberty to fish for any one
they please?-They are at liberty to do anything under the sun, if
they only pay me my rent. They are under no obligation whatever.
15,061. It is said that there is an obligation on the tenants on
Quendale to deliver their fish to you. Is that so?-It is. That is
a condition upon which they sit upon the ground.
15,062. Have you found them generally willing to agree to that
condition?-They have agreed to it without the slightest difficulty.
I am the third generation of the name for whom they have fished.
They never sat upon the property on any other condition since it
was purchased by us about 1765.
15,063. Do you consider that condition to be beneficial to the
landlord and the tenants?-I do. I am satisfied that it is beneficial
for the tenants when the landlord will take the trouble; but it is a
very great deal of trouble.
15,064. Does it not depend entirely upon the landlord's efficiency
as a man of business, whether the condition is a beneficial one for
the tenants or not?-Yes. I think Mr. Bruce, junior, Mr. Urnphray,
and I are the only proprietors in the country who carry on the
fishing to any extent.
15,065. Do you think it would be necessary to increase the rents of
the tenants if they were not under that obligation to fish for you?-
I certainly should increase their rents in Dunrossness if they were
not under that obligation.
15,066. You are aware that a great deal has been said about that
kind of obligation, and that some of your tenants and many of Mr.
Bruce's have come forward and complained loudly about it?-I
know that. I understand the complaint of a great part of Mr.
Bruce's tenants has turned very much upon the question whether
they should be allowed to dry their fish for themselves.
15,067. To some extent it has; but they also wish to be able to
sell their fish as they please, whether they dry them or not. Still
it is the case that a good many of them have spoken very strongly
in favour of being allowed to cure their fish for themselves?-I
would not carry on the fishing upon that condition at all.
15,068. Would you not buy the fish if they had been cured by the
men?-No. I would not undertake to do that on any consideration,
because you would just be swindled, and you could not help
yourself in buying the dry fish. The men are not able to cure
their fish and be ready to commence the next season's fishing.
They could not come to me or to any other person at the end of
the year, and say in an independent manner, 'Will you buy my
fish?' because, in the first place, they must come to me or to some
other person and ask, 'Will you be pleased to supply us with salt
and, meal, and so on, and we will dry our fish and deliver them
to you?' If we agreed to do so, the men commence, it may be
from February, and we supply them with salt, lines, meal, and
everything they require, and that goes on until the end of the
fishing in August, when we must take their fish, but the fish are
mortgaged already. Then, if we go to look at the fish, we find they
have been salted with the least possible amount of salt, and they
are just a parcel of rubbish; but we have paid for them already by
the advances we have made, and we must take them and make the
best or the worst of them. Besides, in the case of an unprincipled
man, he has got the thing in his own hands, because he is aware
that he has already pledged all his fish to you. They are still his
property, however; but while the fish are undelivered, it is very
easy for him to slip some of them on board one of the packets
running to Lerwick, and sell them to any person for cash down. I
am not a lawyer sufficient to know whether that would be a case
of theft or not; but when the wet fish are weighed to me out of the
boat, it is my own fault if I don't cure them so as to be fit for the
market; and if any fellow steals any of my fish, then it would be
a case of theft. I have seen the results of such a system on a
neighbouring property, because Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh's property
has only been under his son's management for eleven years.
Before then his tenants were at liberty to go anywhere they liked,
and they were drowned over head and ears in debt, both to their
landlord and to their fish-curers.
15,069. Do you think the indebtedness of the fishermen is reduced
when the landlord takes the fishing into his own hands?-I do
think so; when they are dealt with in the same manner that is
followed at Dunrossness now.
15,070. But you are speaking now of the previous state of
indebtedness, not from personal knowledge of [Page 380]
your own tenantry, but from what you know of Mr. Bruce's?-
I was as well acquainted with them as if they were my own
tenantry. I was living at my own place then; and when young
Mr. Bruce and I went into partnership together, and endeavoured
to secure the tenants from some of the merchants in Lerwick, it
was part of our business to ascertain the exact amount of debts
upon the south part of the Sumburgh property.
15,071. Are you prepared to say that the amount of debt due by the
fishermen on that property was greater then than it is now?-I am
not prepared to say anything more than what Mr. Bruce told me
about the year 1866 or 1867. 1866 was the last of a series of years
when there were very few of them in debt. Mr. Bruce and I were
talking over the matter, and I was bragging about how small the
debt was in my case, and he told me then that the debt was very
much reduced; and I believe that now they are due nothing to any
person except himself.
15,072. Can you give an idea as to the amount of debt that was
due at the date you speak of? Do you think it would amount to
the whole value of the stock on each man's farm in one half the
cases?-No; nothing like that. A man's stock mounts up to a large
amount of money when it comes to be turned into cash. I would
not speak to precise figures; but my impression at present is, that
the debt at that time might amount to about three rents, or
something like £1200. There might be three rents in arrear of
the rental.
15,073. Have you had any experience that enables you to compare
your own property, at a time when it was not in your hands for
fishing purposes with what it is now?-No. It has never been out
of the hands of my family since the time I mentioned.
15,074. I believe it is not a common practice to raise rents in
Shetland?-No; there has really been very little done in that way.
15,075. Has that something to do with the system of fishing for
and obtaining supplies from the landlord?-I don't think it has
been so much that, as the fact that the landlords are resident in the
place, and there is a sort of moral pressure brought to bear upon a
person who is living in the neighbourhood. You don't like to
make yourself odious among the neighbours round about you. I
think that has had more to do with it than anything else. It is not
the same sort of thing as if a factor was raising the rent for a man
living at a distance. On the Annsbrae estate the proprietors had
not had the fishing for a long time, but I believe there was not
a rise of rent there for two generations, until Mr. Walker
commenced to deal with the property a few years ago. The land
there was very cheap. I think the land is not over-rented, and there
has been very little change upon it in that way until lately.
15,076. I understand the proprietors interested in fishing invariably
make advances to their tenants, in the form of meal and goods?-
They must do so.
15,077. That, I suppose, arises from a want of ready money among
the tenantry themselves?-Yes. Those who have not ready money
must have these advances. There are some people who do not
require them.
15,078. Don't you think their number would be increased if by a
ready-money system they were encouraged to save money and to
acquire habits of frugality?-I don't think so. My experience,
from the beginning of the business, so far as I have had to do with
it, has been, that under the present system a prudent man who
chooses to exercise self-denial could pass out of all possible
control, either of landlord or fish-curer, to do him any injury. He
could, if he chose, draw his money and send it where he liked; and
I have had numbers of men who have not dealt to the extent of £1
in the year with me since I began business. They just took their
money at the end of the year, and supplied themselves where they
chose.
15,079. Does it not seem to you that the improvident have undue
facilities for obtaining credit when they get supplies for the fishing
from the landlord, who has an inducement to carry them on in the
knowledge that they have to fish for him?-That has not been my
practice. I don't like to make any bad debts, and in two cases I
have turned a man about his business because I could not keep him
out of debt. The most profitable fisherman is the man who pays
his way, and not the man who takes goods out of the shop.
15,080. But in order to get your boats manned, I fancy you are
obliged to make these supplies?-Yes, we must make advances.
15,081. Do you think the system of paying a man cash down for
his fish, or at shorter intervals than an annual settlement, could be
carried out?-I cannot see how it would work; and besides, I think
if such a plan were introduced, the people would just revert to the
present system. I am perfectly satisfied that, if you were to pass a
law requiring the men to be paid in cash down, the result would be
that we would have a meeting, and we would agree to pay so much
per cwt., and the fishermen would say, 'We know you, and we will
trust to you paying us that price at the end of the season.' That
would be the case with the greater number of curers, such as Hay
& Co., Mr. Garriock, and myself. The price would be fixed at a
particular time but the men would take our word for it that they
were to be paid at the end of the season. We would have to pay
them a nominal price at short intervals in order to satisfy the law,
but they would expect to be paid a higher price at the end of the
season, if it turned out that we realized a higher price for our fish.
That would be a binding arrangement, on the one side at least.
15,082. But that would not be a very fair bargain?-It would just
be the bargain that we are constantly forced to make with the
fishermen, because they always expect the curers to be fast on one
side, but not on the other. For instance, if they sign an agreement
to go to the Faroe fishing from March to August, and it comes a
bad year, they don't get so many fish as makes the voyage a
profitable one for them, and they say they will rather go to prison
than go to the fishing another year, unless you put them upon
wages. In the meantime you have made advances to them, and you
must give them the chance of that. I know that Messrs. Hay and
others have engaged fishermen for that fishing at a settled price,
but when the end of the season came the fish had been sold so well
that other curers were paying a high rate, and they have just had to
put the bargain in the fire, and pay according to the higher price, or
lose the services of the men.
15,083. Could not an arrangement of this kind be carried out,
that a price should be fixed to be paid weekly, or fortnightly, or
monthly, on the delivery of the fish, according as the case may be,
and that the fishermen should be entitled, as in the whale fishing,
to an additional payment, similar to oil-money, at the end of the
season?-Yes, they might be paid at such a rate as the curer could
afford, in the same way as is done now; but that would come
practically to the same thing as the present system.
15,084. Would it not be a system of paying weekly wages, with an
additional payment in proportion to the produce?-It would not be
wages: it would be a weekly payment for produce, because weekly
wages would never do.
15,085. Would it not virtually be wages, with a bonus on the
amount of the produce besides?-I suppose it would; but wages
are a different thing from paying a man for what he delivers to
you. If you pay a man wages, he may turn lazy and do nothing,
and you cannot be looking after him when he is at the fishing.
15,086. But this would be a payment of wages, and something
more. He would have an inducement to work in order to increase
the total produce at the end of the season?-That might be so; but I
have thought over the subject, and I see no other way in which the
system can be worked than it is at present. The law will be
complied with nominally, but matters would fall back into their
old state.
15,087. But if the law only required a certain proportion to be
paid at short intervals, could it not be complied with, not only
nominally, but substantially, in that way, and still recognise such
an arrangement as [Page 381] you consider would be necessary?-
It might be, but it would be a very disagreeable and a very difficult
thing to carry out. It would be hardly possible to arrange the price
that, was to be paid for the fish during the course of the season.
15,088. Would the price not always be very considerably below
what the fish were expected to realize?-Supposing the price in a
number of years had been, on an average, 7s. or 8s. per cwt. for
ling, probably both curers and fishermen might agree to fix 5s. 6d.
as the rate at which the men were to be paid in the course of the
season, reserving to them a further payment, according as the
fishing turned out?-Yes, it might be managed in that way quite
well; but then what would the people do before they got any fish
ashore at all? How would they be able to live then?
15,089. I suppose the object of the Legislature would be to teach
them to lay by something on which they might be able to live
when they were not actually at the fishing?-That might be the
object, but the people might die in the teaching. It is all very well
to come down and see the country in a year like this, when money
has been flush; but if you had seen such a year as 1868 or 1869 or
1870, when the people were coming to you in January starving,
and wanting you to advance them meal and other things, and a big
debt standing against them at the same time in the merchant's
books, you would have seen that it was not such a matter of plain
sailing then.
15,090. Don't you think that even at that season the fishing might
have been prosecuted to some extent?-No; there was nothing to
catch. Besides, a good crop makes a great difference in Shetland.
I don't think I bought thirty bolls of meal in the south country last
year, but I was buying 300 or 400 for the same number of men in
those years. Still, although the men are in such distress in bad
years, I think you ought to know what an amount of money some
of the fishermen have lying in the Union Bank, on deposit receipt.
You would find then that they are not so poor as they have been
represented.
15,091. Do you think most of the deposits in the banks here under
£100 belong to fishermen?-I think so.
15,092. Do you also think that a number of the deposits above that
sum belong to people of the same class?-I am satisfied of that.
15,093. In short, you think that almost all the deposits in the banks
here must be those of fishermen?-I think most part of them are
those of fishermen, crofters, and small tenants throughout the
country; because I think that any person who had accumulated
more than that sum would be likely to invest it in some more
remunerative way than to leave it on deposit receipt in the bank.
When people have been told in the public prints that a Shetlander
nearly loses his head when he sees a £1 note, it is very important
that there should be some inquiry on that subject.
15,094. Do you think that men who are indebted to you, for
instance, or to any other person engaged in business, and getting
advances in the course of the year, are likely to have deposits in
the bank?-I don't think that. I could tell over the names of the
men upon my property who I suppose have deposits; but I am
perfectly satisfied that none of those who are indebted to me have
any deposits at all.
15,095. It has been alleged that a fisherman might get advances
from the merchant who employs him, although he had a deposit
receipt in the bank, especially in a distant place, where it would
cost some trouble to him to go to his bank and get his deposit
receipt altered. Do you think he would do so if he only wanted a
small sum?-I believe that to a certain extent he would. I believe
that he might take advances from his landlord's shop during the
season, although he had a deposit receipt, if he saw that he could
get the things as moderate upon credit from his landlord as he
could elsewhere, paying for them at the end of the year. That is
sometimes done when the men want a boat. There are tenants of
mine without means of their own, who have come to me and said
they wanted a new boat. I would ask them who was to pay for it,
and they would tell me that some of the men to whom the boat was
to belong were not able to pay for then, although others might be
able to pay their share; and it was better for the whole of them to
pay their shares at the end of the season, because the men who had
the money would have got no advantage by paying it at the time.
15,096. But do you think a man would stand permanently in arrear
at settlement with you if he had money in the bank?-No; but if I
settle with him in January, I believe he would go and deposit a £10
note from that year's settlement, and begin a new account with
me, and get a new boat, and let it stand to his credit until next year.
But he would never think of having a permanent running balance
with me if he had money of his own in bank.
15,097. Is it a general thing among the men to go and deposit some
of their money in bank and begin a new account with you?-Yes, I
believe they do that for a single year. They would be great fools if
they did not. They keep a pass-book, if they choose, with the shop,
and they would be no better off if they were to pay for their goods
in money.
15,098. Would they not be better off if they could get their goods
cheaper for cash?-I don't know that they could do that. I cannot
get the things any cheaper from the Lerwick dealers for cash. I
pay my accounts here every six weeks, and get only 2s. 6d. or so
off £4 or £5.
15,099. But are not the prices in Lerwick lower than they are in
your quarter?-I don't think so. I think I am selling as low as they
do in Lerwick, and sometimes even lower. Mr. Gavin Henderson's
shop is near ours, and he acts as a powerful pressure upon us.
15,100. Do you sometimes exact liberty money?-I have exacted
liberty money two or three times from landholders. I don't take it
from young men-only from landholders. Three guineas is what I
fixed it at, but I asked a pound only for the last man who fished off
the property. His name was James Shewan; and I told him this
year that he could fish for nothing, because I wanted his land to
put a few sheep on. He is going to fish for nothing this year, and
he is to leave at Martinmas.
15,101. That is to say, he is to fish to any party for nothing?-He
can fish to any person he likes. I believe in the evidence which
has been given, mention was made of a lad Thomas Johnston not
getting liberty to go home to his father's house because he was
fishing for another curer. The understanding I have with the
tenants is, that I expect them all, both young men and old, to fish
for me, on condition that I pay them as well as any other person;
and I want to put as much pressure as I consider reasonable upon
them for that purpose. But young men are not to be bound always
to fish at the home fishing, and sometimes there may not be a way
suitable for them; and I have told them all in such a case that they
could go to Faroe or to Greenland, or go out of the parish into the
next parish, and prosecute the fishing there. This lad Johnston,
who was the son of a man considerably indebted to me, went down
to the other side and fished to Messrs. Hay & Co., and I daresay I
did come pretty hard down upon the father for allowing his son to
go away. The result was, that the lad spent his winter about a
mile and a half or two miles from his father's house in service
there, but he has been back since then. On other occasions two
or three young men have left the parish when they could not get a
convenient boat in it, and gone to Dunrossness to the fishing, and I
have never said anything to them about it. There is one lad who is
to fish for Mr. Bruce in a boat's crew of his in the incoming
season, and I have made no objection to it.
15,102. There was another case mentioned in the previous
evidence also-that of a man named Williamson, at Berlin. It
was said his son was engaged to a neighbouring crofter as a
servant, and that he had been obliged to leave that and come to
your employment as beach boy for a lower wage?-I cannot tell
anything [Page 382] about that; but, as a rule, I expect the boys to
serve me at the beach on the usual terms. I always make a point
of informing them in plenty of time, perhaps about August, that I
will require so and so the following year, so that they may not
make any other engagement. If such a thing took place with
Williamson's son, I never heard of it. I had a boy named
Williamson in my employment at the beach last season, and I
suppose he was a son of old James Williamson's, but I knew
nothing about him having been previously engaged to another
service. With regard to liberty money, I may say that in 1867
Charles Eunson paid me over £3 or three guineas; and John
Flawes. I think they fished to me in the following year.
15,103. One complaint made by the men with regard to the price
paid to them for their fish, was that some neighbouring curers at
Sandwick, Thomas Tulloch and James Smith, paid 9d. per cwt.
more for ling, and also an additional price for other fish above
what is called the current price: can you explain how that arises?-
I can explain how the current price, according to which we pay, is
fixed, but I don't understand how Tulloch and Smith can pay the
price they do. If you can investigate that and let us see it in the
blue-book, we will perhaps get a wrinkle out of it; but we cannot
understand it in the meantime. What I promise to my fishermen,
and what I promise any stray boats that come to me-and I have
three or four boats fishing to me just now from Simbister
property-is, that whatever Messrs. Hay & Co., Mr. John Bruce,
Mr. John Robertson, and Mr. Mullay pay, will be paid by me also.
Mr. Tulloch and Mr. Smith are no guide to me with regard to the
price which I am to pay; and I tell the men they must go to them if
they want their price.
15,104. Can you account for their higher prices by the fact that
they sell, not to wholesale dealers as the larger merchants do, but
to retail purchasers, and thus get both the retail and the wholesale
profit?-That may account for it. I know that Tulloch's boat is
coming up to Lerwick every week during the summer with casks
of fish for retail dealers. Of course, when I am shipping 100 tons,
I must allow a middle-man to take them, and he must have his
profit; but I have nothing to do with how Tulloch manages his
business.
15,105. Do communications pass between you and the other
fish-curers as to the price of fish before you settle with your
fishermen?-The fact is, that I have always found it the most
difficult thing possible to make out what price they were going
to pay. One curer may get a sort of a pull over another if he pays
6d. or so above the market price but that leads to very disagreeable
feelings. I have asked Hay & Co. repeatedly what price they were
to pay, and they have given me no answer; and I have actually
found the current price by taking care to be about the last who
sold, and seeing what my neighbours had got before me. At the
present time I have squared up my books at a certain price; but Mr
John Bruce has not settled yet, and if he pays 2d. or 3d. above me I
shall have to turn my books over again and pay that additional. I
have always been the second last in settling, just in order that I
might see what my neighbours were to pay. One year I settled
before Hay & Co.'s people, and they paid 2d. a gallon on the livers
above me. I paid that up on the next year's livers, and lost a £10
note on the transaction.
15,106. Do you find the fishermen a difficult people to deal
with?-Exceedingly.
15,107. Do they make many inquiries as to the prices at which you
have sold the fish, or ask to see your accounts?-No. They begin
to understand about the end of the season what the price is to be
which they are to get. As a general rule we tell them that they
will get what other people are getting, and they will hear in time
enough; but they never think of asking what I am getting for the
fish myself. The Faroe fishers are the only people who would be
disposed to be troublesome in that way, because they are entitled
to one half of the proceeds of the fishing.
15,108. Have you anything to do with the Faroe fishing?-I have
one vessel there; but I don't supply the men with goods. Messrs.
Hay or Mr. Leask have been the agents for that; and I merely
interpone my security, and pay cash for the goods, without a
penny of profit upon them.
15,109. Do you give security to Messrs. Hay or Mr. Leask for the
advances which they make to your fishermen?-Yes; they are
debited to me.
15,110. Are the fishermen aware that such security is given and
that they can get advances at these shops?-Yes. Of course I
speak to one of Mr. Leask's men, and tell him that they are not
to advance the men beyond a certain amount, for fear of them
going over the line.
15,111. Do you get no commission upon their transactions at these
shops?-Not one farthing.
15,112. Do the fishermen in the Faroe trade require any exhibition
of the bills of sale?-I do not know. I never was asked to exhibit
my bills of sale; but they know exactly what the prices are. There
are people going back and forward to Leith who know exactly
what we get.
15,113. Are the fish sold by public sale in Leith?-No.
15,114. Are they sold by commission agents there?-We have
often to sell them direct. It is a miserable thing to put them into a
commission agent's hands. We try to make the best bargain we
can with the middle-men from Glasgow or Belfast.
15,115. Is there a traveller who comes round and purchases the
fish in Shetland?-They very often come round for that purpose.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM SIEVWRIGHT, examined.
15,116. You are a solicitor in Lerwick?-I am.
15,117. Do you act as factor on the property of Mrs. Budge,
Seafield?-Yes; I have been so for about two years, or something
like that.
15,118. [Shown letter from witness to William Stewart,
Kirkabister, dated 22d November 1870, quoted in Stewart's
evidence, question 8917]-Did you write that letter?-Yes.
15,119. Have you anything to say with regard to it?-All I have to
say is, that the Thomas Williamson mentioned in the letter had
been carrying on a small business at Seafield, and the tenants
had taken a prejudice against him, and did not wish to do any
business with him; the result of which was that he had resolved,
or pretty well resolved, to leave the place, and the business
premises were likely to be shut up in consequence. Before
writing the letter, I had seen several of the tenants there, and
particularly William Stewart, who was a leading man among them,
and had endeavoured to overcome that prejudice. I told them that
Mrs. Budge expected that they would, in her interest, fish to the
tenant of the business premises upon equal terms-that is to say, if
they could arrange with him upon as favourable terms as with any
other body, but not otherwise. They seemed to acquiesce in that,
or at any rate did not take any objection to it after I had explained
the matter to them; and I believe they have been thoroughly
satisfied with their transactions. I may explain further, that most
of these tenants, or at least many of them, were in debt, some
of them to a large extent, for land rent; and I thought it only
reasonable that if they could assist the proprietor, they should do
so. There was no compulsion, in the proper sense of the word.
The tenants understood quite well that it was merely if they could
make a bargain as favourable with Williamson as with any other
body that they were to do that.
15,120. Did Williamson become responsible to the proprietor for
the rent?-No.
15,121. Has it been paid through him?-I don't think so. Perhaps
a few of the tenants have paid it through [Page 383] him, but he
certainly was not responsible for it in any way. At any rate, I did
not make him bound.
15,122. Do the tenants ever pay their rents directly to you?-Yes.
Occasionally they hand them in to Mrs. Budge, who sends the
money to me; but the settlements are all made by me.
15,123. How many tenants are there on that property?-I think
altogether there are 25 or 26.
15,124. Have they any leases?-No; they are just yearly tenants.
The proprietor was very anxious to give them leases, but she is
only a liferenter herself, and she cannot give them the warrandice
they should have.
15,125. How many of these tenants are fishermen?-I think there
should be perhaps 15 or 16 of them, but I cannot be positive as to
that. I believe Williamson has two boats manned from among
them.
15,126. Has he also a shop?-Yes, a small shop.
15,127. And I suppose the trade of the shop depends on his
securing a certain number of fishermen for his boats?-Yes,
and on the good-will of the tenants there.
15,128. But if the tenants are in debt, are they not virtually obliged
to deal at his shop?-I don't think so.
15,129. Do you think it probable that they could get credit
anywhere else?-I certainly think so; and I think Williamson
himself is in a position to go a great way in giving them credit.
15,130. Are you aware that Williamson commenced business with
a very small capital?-I don't think he could have had much
means; but I believe he has paid his fishermen in cash this season.
15,131. You mean that he has paid in cash any balances that were
due?-I don't know that there were many balances due. I think
the fishermen would not deal much with him, and he actually paid
for the fish almost wholly in cash. I know that I sent him about
£120 for the purpose.
15,132. Then, notwithstanding the obligation to fish that is laid on
the tenants, Williamson has not been able to make a good business
there?-I don't think he has, because, notwithstanding that the
proprietor wished the tenants to deal with him as much as possible,
they have not, in point of fact, done so more than they could
possibly avoid. He is nearer to them, and they might get some
things more conveniently from him than anywhere else. I am
anxious to make it appear that I explained thoroughly to them, that
if they could not arrange with him upon as favourable terms as
with another, they were quite at liberty to do as they chose.
15,133. Is the letter I have shown you the only one that has passed
on the subject of fishing with Stewart or any of the tenants on that
estate?-The only one; and I have never had any complaints since
it was written.
15,134. Have you had any experience in the management of
property in other parts of Shetland?-Not a large experience, but
I have a pretty good notion of the manner in which it is managed.
15,135. Can you say whether it is common for rents to be paid
through the fish-merchant?-I believe it is rather common that the
fish-merchant becomes responsible for the rents. The proprietor
says to him, 'You have my fishermen, and you must pay their
rents,' or something like that.
15,136. Do you know that, in point of fact, it is usual for a
fish-curer to draw a cheque in favour of the proprietor for the
rents of a large number of the fishermen employed by him?-I
have seen it done. There is a small property in Delting that I have
managed, where a number of the rents have been paid in that way;
but there was no arrangement whatever that the fish-curer should
pay the rents: they just came through him. I have got perhaps £50
at a time in that way.
15,137. You are also a bank agent?-Yes.
15,138. Has that practice not come within your knowledge as a
bank agent?-I cannot say that it has.
15,139. You have not been long in that position?-Not long.
Besides, I could not be sure that cheques presented were for that
purpose.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT MULLAY, examined.
15,140. Are you a merchant and fish-curer in Lerwick?-Yes, to a
small extent.
15,141. Have you any other business?-I have a retail shop here.
15,142. How many boats had you employed in the line-fishing last
year?-Seven.
15,143. You have a fishing station at Ireland, in Dunrossness, on
the property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes. I pay rent to him
for the beach and booth.
15,144. Is your station the only place in that neighbourhood where
fish can be landed and dried?-There is no other place in that bay
where fish can be cured; there is no other beach than the one I
have.
15,145. Are the tenants on that part of the Simbister estate under
any obligation to fish for you?-None whatever.
15,146. Do they, in point of fact, all fish for you?-Yes; all those
who fish out of that bay.
15,147. Is that because there is no other beach?-I suppose there is
no other cause for it.
15,148. Would it be a misstatement to say that the Simbister
tenants in that quarter are obliged, by the terms of their tenure, to
fish for you and for Mr. John Robertson, jun.?-Yes. They are
not bound, because there are some of them who fish for me in one
year, and perhaps they are at the farthest end of Shetland the next,
and then they may come back to me again.
15,149. Do you keep a shop at the fishing station?-I keep nothing
there except a supply of fishing lines and hooks.
15,150. Do any of the fishermen there get their supplies from your
shop in Lerwick?-They get what they want.
15,151. Do they keep an account with you, which is settled at the
annual settling time?-Yes; but many of them never get one penny
from me except in the shape of cash. There must be an account
for them in my books when settling with them, and when the
fishing is divided between them and their partners; but many of
them have no individual account for out-takes.
15,152. Have you any interest in the Faroe fishing?-None
whatever.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, jun., examined.
15,153. Are you a merchant and fish-curer in Lerwick?-I am. I
have a retail shop here, and a fishing station at Spiggie on the
property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister.
15,154. Are the tenants in the neighbourhood of that station under
any obligation to fish for you?-None whatever. If such a
statement was made to you, it was entirely wrong. I am quite sure
the tenants there do not hold their land under any such condition.
15,155. Do many of Mr. Bruce's tenants fish for you, in point of
fact?-I think I had ten boats at Spiggie last year-three men in
each boat.
15,156. Were these men mostly from Mr. Bruce's lands?-Almost
entirely, I should say.
15,157. Was that because these lands are adjacent to your fishing
station?-I believe that is the principal reason why they fished for
me.
15,158. Might these men have cured their own fish, or fished for
any other merchant, if they had chosen?-Yes.
15,159. Was there any local circumstance that prevented them
from doing so?-They could not have cured their own fish in that
neighbourhood, because the beach was mine. I possessed it and
there is no other beach within several miles.
15,160. Therefore the fishermen residing in that particular place,
may be bound to a particular fish-curer by the physical character
of the country as well as by a legal obligation?-I believe that is
so. That is the only way [Page 384] in which I can account for the
men fishing at my station.
15,161. You have certain natural advantages at your station?-
Yes; and I presume it is the same in many other cases. At the
same time, I am willing to believe that if the men had had a choice
of stations, they would just as soon have fished for me as for any
other person in that neighbourhood. I settled with them at the end
of the year, and paid them according to the current price.
15,162. You did not pay them above it?-No.
15,163. I believe there are some merchants in your neighbourhood
who pay considerably above the current price?-They are not
exactly in my neighbourhood, but there are such merchants within
a dozen miles.
15,164. How do you account for them being able to do so?-I am
not able to account for the proceedings of these gentlemen; they
always appear to me to be inexplicable.
15,165. Could you not afford to pay at the price which they
give?-No, not unless I worked for nothing.
15,166. Could you not do it if you were selling to the retail dealers
direct?-I don't think I could: that could not be done, as a general
rule.
15,167. Do you sell your fish to wholesale merchants?-
Generally; I may say always.
15,168. Do you sell them in one lot at the end of the season?-
Generally in one lot.
15,169. Do most of the men run accounts with you for supplies
during the fishing season?-A few of them do.
15,170. Have you a store there for that purpose?-I have a station
there, and during the summer season I keep some fishing materials
at it, such as lines and hooks, and things of that sort. These are the
only materials I am expected to supply them with.
15,171. Do you not supply them with meal and other stores?-It is
expected that I will supply them with them too, if they ask for
them; but the men generally in that neighbourhood are very well
off, and they can get their supplies from other merchants, and in
fact they do so.
15,172. Do many of them run accounts with you in Lerwick for
supplies?-The only article I supply them with is meal, and it is
principally the poorer men who get it from me; that is, men who
are a little behind, and who would not get credit so readily as some
of their neighbours.
15,173. Are these accounts for meal settled at the annual
settlement in the usual way?-Yes.
15,174. Have you any other fishings, except at Spiggie?-I have a
station at Levenwick also. I have not many boats there. I think
there were about half a dozen boats fishing for me last season.
15,175. Have you a store there for supplying the fishermen?-I
have, during the summer season, for supplying lines and hooks
and other fishing materials. I have also a store there for the sale of
general goods.
15,176. Is that a permanent store?-It has been permanent for the
last twelve months.
15,177. Do the men keep accounts there when they want goods on
credit, and settle for them at the end of the season?-Yes; but my
instructions to my factor are, to give as little as possible, except
fishing materials and some of the absolute necessaries of life, on
credit.
15,178. You are the successor to the business of Mr. Robert
Mouat?-Yes, and his predecessor too.
15,179. Were you trustee on his sequestrated estate?-No; it was
Mr. William Robertson.
15,180. Did Mouat, during the last two years of his tack, call the
tenants together and desire them to fish for you?-No. In October
or November 1870 he came and told me he was going to give up
the fishing, because he had so many other kinds of business, and
he could not look after them all quite well; and he said he would
give me the run of the store at Levenwick and the beach during the
last two years of his tack that remained. I agreed to take it, and
came down to the place. He was there at the time, and he invited a
number of the men to wait upon him, and told them what he had
resolved to do, and recommended that they should fish for me.
Some of the men agreed to do so, and others said they preferred
having their freedom to do what they liked; and they did so.
15,181. Did many of the fishermen who had been in Mouat's
employment continue to fish for you when you took up that
station?-I made up about five or six boats last year out of his
men,-perhaps twenty men.
15,182. Did you find that these men were in great indebtedness?-
I found that there were some of them very poor and ill-off, much
worse than I would like to find them.
15,183. Did you take over any part of the stock which Mouat had
in his shop there?-Yes, I bought the stuff that remained in his
shop at the Moul.
15,184. Did you pay a full price for that?-Yes; it was sold at a
valuation, at which he and I were present.
15,185. What was the quality of the stock?-It consisted
principally of lines and some drapery goods. The quality of the
goods that I bought was very fair. Some of them had been very
recently brought in, but others had lain in the shop for a good
while. These articles I generally refused to take.
15,186. Had you to take over any meal?-No; there was not an
ounce in the shop.
15,187. Were there any articles of food of any kind?-No.
15,188. Then what you took over was entirely soft goods and
fishing materials?-Yes.
15,189. Have you any knowledge as to the quality and prices of
the provisions which had been sold in his shop?-No; that did not
come within my knowledge at all.
15,190. Have you understood from the people in the
neighbourhood whom you have since employed, that the
quality was very inferior and the price high?-I have heard
such complaints.
15,191. I suppose the people express themselves well pleased with
the change that has been made?-I heard of nothing else.
15,192. Was that the only transaction you had with Mouat or with
the trustee on his estate with regard to the shop business?-Ever
since Mouat became tacksman of that property, I have had some
dealings with him every year in the purchase of fish and herrings.
15,193. But had you any other transaction with him in
connection with him leaving the property and you taking over
the fishermen?-No; nothing beyond what I have stated.
15,194. Are you engaged in the herring fishing?-Yes.
15,195. How many vessels have you employed in it?-I would
have perhaps twenty boats from Levenwick and Lerwick going to
the herring fishing for about six weeks, commencing on 12th
August, and ending about the end of September.
15,196. What is the nature of the bargain which you make with the
crews of these boats?-It is understood that I am to pay the prices
that are generally paid in Shetland for herrings. Prior to 1869 the
price I paid to my men was generally regulated by the price paid
by Mr. Methuen, fish-curer, Leith, who is the largest fish-curer in
Scotland. He, up to that time, had boats from Mr. Bruce of Sand
Lodge. Mr. Bruce, once a year, made a bargain with Mr. Methuen,
and generally brought him to a very high figure, and my fishermen
expected that I was to pay the same price that Mr. Methuen did.
They considered that when Mr. Methuen, the greatest fish-curer in
Scotland, was able to give certain price to his men, they ought to
get the same and that was the price I always paid until three years
ago. Since then the herring fishing has been almost a blank; it has
been a source of great loss.
15,197. At that time did you become bound to pay them only the
current price in Shetland?-There was no bargain made about that.
In fact the fishing is so very uncertain, that it is just a matter of
circumstances whether we speak about prices or not. Last year, for
instance, I had to prepare for about twenty boats fishing, and, I
think I did not get thirty crans of herrings altogether.
[Page 385]
15,198. You did not fix a price per cran at the beginning of the
season?-No.
15,199. Are the men who are engaged in the herring fishing the
same men who fish for ling during the summer months?-Yes.
15,200. Are the boats different?-Frequently they are the same
boats.
15,201. Is the settlement made at the same time as the settlement
for the ling fishing?-Yes.
15,202. Is there any other point you desire to mention in
connection with this inquiry?-No. The whole question seems
to be very well ventilated, and I have nothing to add.
15,203. Would you have any objection to a system of weekly or
fortnightly payments for the fish that are delivered to you?-I
would have no objection to that if it were practicable, but I think
there are difficulties in the way which make it practically
impossible.
15,204. Would these difficulties not be removed, or greatly
reduced, if the weekly or fortnightly payment were only a portion
of the price, or a minimum price of say 5s. 6d. per cwt. for ling,
leaving the balance of the price of the fish to the end of the season,
and to pay it then?-I don't think that system would work very
well. It would entail a great amount of trouble and I cannot see
how it could be carried out.
15,205. Would there be any trouble, except keeping cash at the
stations and handing it to the fishermen at short intervals?-That
would be one great source of trouble.
15,206. Would there be any other?-The difficulty of introducing
such a system appears to me to be this, that the poor men would
not be able to get on in January and February before the fishing
begins, unless they obtained advances of some kind from the
merchants. If a system of ready-money payments were introduced,
the fish being paid for only when they were delivered in the month
of June, then the men would have some difficulty in maintaining
themselves in the winter and spring.
15,207. No doubt there might be some hardship or difficulty at
first, but after one or two seasons do you not think the men would
have learned to provide for that part of the season?-There are
certain classes of men that I don't see how such a system could
work with at all.
15,208. Could these men not find a certain provision in more
application to the winter fishing?-There are some localities where
the winter fishing is impracticable. The boats cannot be hauled up
and down, so that really there are no fish got except in a few days
of exceptionally fine weather.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, PETER GARRIOCK, examined.
15,209. Are you a merchant in Lerwick?-I am an agent in
Lerwick.
15,210. Do you keep a shop?-No; but I keep fishing materials for
my men, and for general sale.
15,211. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, only in the
Faroe fishing. I have three vessels employed in it.
15,212. Where are the men employed in these vessels supplied
with their materials and fishing supplies?-Their fishing materials
are got from me, and I generally appoint them to get their other
materials from Hay & Co., or R. & C. Robertson, or Harrison &
Sons. There are four or five individuals in Lerwick that I give
them their option to get their materials from.
15,213. Do you guarantee these gentlemen for the advances they
give to your men?-Yes; at least of late I have had to do it.
15,214. Do you settle with the merchants before settling with the
fishermen?-No, not before. The men get their accounts from
them, and we retain the amount.
15,215. Do you receive a commission upon the advances made by
the merchants?-Occasionally.
15,216. Do you not always do so?-No. Some of them don't agree
to give it; there is no arrangement about that.
15,217. Do those who give it get a reference?-They do not. The
men have very often to go to them.
15,218. But you give them the option only to go to certain parties
whom you name?-Yes. If they begin to deal with one party, they
must deal with the same party during the season, because of the
difficulty of keeping accounts with the various parties in the town.
15,219. You name a certain number of merchants with whom they
must deal?-Yes; and they are generally the most respectable
people in Lerwick, where they can get their supplies most
moderately. But the men were naming any one themselves with
whom they wished to deal, they would have the same option to
deal with him, only they must deal with the same individual for the
season.
15,220. Would you give a similar guarantee to a merchant whom
the men named themselves?-Yes.
15,221. Do you do that in order that the families of the men may
be
able to live during the fishing season-Yes.
15,222. But it is only in the event of a man requiring these
advances that you give such a guarantee, or require them to go
to such a shop?-They all require it.
15,223. Are none of them able to live upon their own resources?-
Plenty of them; but still they come for their supplies. There was
an instance of that occurred with me only eight days past on
Saturday. A man who had been in my employment for two or
three years had been engaged two or three weeks before to go to
the fishing for the rising season, and he came on Saturday and
asked for supplies. I asked him where he wished them from, and
he said Hay & Co.'s, and I gave him an order to go there. After
giving it to him, he came and asked me for some cash. I told him
thought it was rather early to come and ask for cash for the rising
season, and that he could hardly have spent the money he had got
from me at settlement. After a good deal of pressure, he said that
about the time he had settled with me he had got some money
from his son, and he had added it to the money he had from me,
and had put it into the bank, and he did not like to draw it out
again. Therefore it is not altogether from necessity that they get
these supplies.
15,224. But they all take them as a matter of course?-Yes. There
are some men who always get them, and the other men would
think they were not so well treated if they did not get them also.
15,225. Then the necessity of making these advances to the men is
one of the elements which the merchant must take into account in
making his arrangements for the season?-To some extent it must
be.
15,226. Is it not an element in fixing the price which the men are
to
get, that the merchant has to make advances of that description?-
Not so far as the Faroe fishing is concerned.
15,227. In the Faroe trade do the men get exactly the same price
for their fish which the merchant realizes?-Yes, and something
more.
15,228. Why do you give more?-Just because we are obliged to
do it. This year I am paying more than I can get. I am bound to
pay the currency, as it is called; and if the currency is higher than I
realize for the fish, I am still bound to pay it.
15,229. Have you not been able to sell up to the current price this
year?-No. I did not accept the price which was offered to me at
one time, thinking the fish would be higher, but instead of being
higher they fell. I did not sell until after the men were settled with.
15,230. Are you agent or owner of the fishing smack 'Gondola'?-
Yes.
15,231 What was the amount of earnings of the men employed in
that vessel last season?-The men's earnings in 1871 were about
£19 or £20, on an average, for the season.
15,232. Was that the whole proceeds that were paid from the catch
of the 'Gondola'?-Yes.
15,233. Was that the sum of which the men received payment after
the necessary deductions?-The sum which each man receives
varies according to his position [Page 386] in the vessel. The
master received £42, 11s. 3d.; the mate received £25, 8s. 10d.; one
man received £21, 6s., and the others ran from that to £19, 13s.
6d., if they were there the whole season, according to the amount
of their score-money.
15,234. What was the amount credited to each sharesman for the
value of his share of the fish?-It varied from £19, 13s. 6d. to
about £21, 6s. for an ordinary sharesman. The score-money makes
a little difference between one sharesman and another.
15,235. What was the amount of the share apart from the
score-money?-It was £14, 4s. 7d. for the Faroe fishing. That
was for the period when they were paid by shares; but there was
a part of the season when they were paid by wages, when they
were upon an Iceland voyage.
15,236. What was the number of the crew?-There were fourteen
during the Faroe fishing. Of these, nine were full sharesmen, and
the others varied from threequarters to half a share. There were
121/4 shares altogether, and the whole proceeds of the fishing
would be divided by that.
15,237. What was the total take of fish?-20 tons 6 cwt. 3 qrs. 21
lbs.
15,238. Was that a fair average fishing for the season?-No, it was
rather a poor season. I daresay it was fully an average for last
year; but it was a poor fishing, taking other years into account. We
would not consider it a paying season.
15,239. Who classes the quality of the fish?-It is generally the
merchant. We usually send the first-class fish to Spain, and the
other cod go to the home market.
15,240. You charge 52s. 6d. as the cost price for curing. Is that by
arrangement with the men at the beginning of the season?-No.
15,241. Is it rounded upon an estimate of the actual expense of
curing for the year?-We cannot ascertain every particular with
regard to the expense of curing the fish and bringing them into
market; but I am certain we are charging under the rate which it
actually costs us, including wages, salt, material, and a great many
other things that have to be embraced in it. We have often to
include coffee and other things supplied to the women at the
beach.
15,242. Are the people employed in your curing establishment
paid
by weekly wages or by fees for the season?-They are not paid in
that way at all. Here [showing in book] is the account of a man,
Arthur Leask, who employs some women from the mainland. I
make a contract with him for the curing of the fish. He generally
gives an order to the women, and I pay them what is contained in
that order.
15,243. Is that the way in which most of your curing business is
managed?-Yes.
15,244. Do you cure at the island of Linga?-Yes. Here [showing]
is another account with people who have been curing for me for a
number of years. I entered into the contract first with Laurence
Thomson; he died and left the farm, and then John Thomson took
it, and now Miss Thomson has it.
15,245. Is the work all done in contract with them?-Yes.
15,246. Do they give orders to their employés in the same way
as Leask?-I think they manage it themselves, both there and at
Linga, with the exception of the washing.
15,247. Do you pay them in cash?-Yes.
15,248. Have you any transactions with the people employed by
them?-No.
15,249. Had they an account for goods in any shop?-Not so far as
I am aware.
15,250. In what way are the people paid whom Leask sends to you
with orders?-They are paid in cash altogether.
15,251. Have you a written agreement with your Faroe fishers?-
Yes; I have a separate one for each smack every year.
15,252. Do you stipulate in that agreement what deductions are to
be made?-Yes; at least that is done generally. The deductions,
including the expenses of curing and bringing the fish to market,
and master's and mate's fees, score-money, and cost of bait, are
made from the gross proceeds, and then the balance is divided into
two-one half going to the men, and the other to the owners.
15,253. Is there not a deduction for commission?-No; that is
generally just an understanding.
15,254. What is that understanding?-That a commission is to
be charged. In the account I have produced for the 'Gondola'
commission and guarantee are charged at 5 per cent.,
15,255. Do the men at settlement see, or desire to see, the bills of
sale?-They have never done so in any case.
15,256. Do they sometimes complain that they did not see them,
or make any complaints about the price of the fish?-They are
always grumbling; but they never made any direct complaint to
me on the subject. In order to save a good deal of that trouble, the
North Sea Fishing Co. have produced their accounts, but very
frequently they have begun to settle with their fishermen at the
currency before the accounts were ready.
15,257. Do the company produce their bills of sale to the men?-
They are bound to do it if the men call for them.
15,258. Are you connected with that company?-I am a director of
it. Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co., is the agent.
15,259. Do you know whether, in point of fact, the fishermen
generally see the bills of sale of that company?-I cannot tell.
That is a matter which is left in the hands of Mr. Irvine.
15,260. Are the men frequently in debt to you at the
commencement of the fishing season?-No. There were
some men who left me in debt last year, and they have gone
elsewhere,-I don't know where. In fact I would rather get clear
of a man who is in debt, and take my chance of getting my debt
from him afterwards, than employ him again, unless he was a very
good man.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JAMES COUTTS, examined.
15,261. Are you a provision merchant in Lerwick?-I am. I have
been in business for eleven years.
15,262. Do you deal in anything else but provisions?-Nothing of
any consequence. Sometimes I get a little cottons, or small wares
as we call them.
15,263. Do you sometimes purchase soft goods over the
counter?-I used to do it; but I have not done so for the last
twelve or eighteen months.
15,264. Why did you give it up at that time?-There were
several reasons for it. I did not think it was a nice thing to do;
and sometimes it was more bother than it was all worth.
15,265. You probably found your other business increasing?-It
was not for that reason that I gave it up. I got more humbug by it
than all the good it was.
15,266. How were you humbugged by it?-I would sometimes
take goods in that had perhaps been stolen, and I lost them
altogether. It was a kind of broker's business that I did.
15,267. Did you do a good deal of that business at one time?-Not
much.
15,268. But still you were a broker to some extent?-It was not
worth speaking of.
15,269. What kind of goods were you in the habit of getting in that
way?-Various sorts of goods, such as wearing apparel. There
was nothing else that I recollect of particularly just now.
15,270. Did you sometimes get cottons and other goods that were
not made up into wearing apparel?-Not that I remember.
15,271. I thought you said you had dealt to some extent in cottons
and calicoes?-I got them from the south along with my other
goods.
15,272. Did you sometimes lay in a small stock of these?-Yes.
15,273. Have you never purchased any cotton, or [Page 387]
calicoes, or dress stuffs not made up, from people at your
counter?-I cannot recollect just now. I had a small book in
which I entered these purchases.
15,274. Have you got that book with you?-I have not seen it for
the last six months.
15,275. You will go for that book, and show it to me here?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, LAURENCE THOMPSON, examined.
15,276. Are you a seaman in Lerwick?-I am.
15,277. Have you gone frequently on sealing and whaling voyages
from this port?-Yes.
15,278. By what agent, have you been engaged?-I have gone
from them all.
15,279. Did you have an account for outfit and supplies from the
agent who engaged you every time you went?-Yes.
15,280. When did you go first?-In 1858.
15,281. Did you go as a green hand then?-Yes.
15,282. Where did you get your outfit?-From Mr. Leask.
15,283. Did you settle for it at the end of the voyage?-Yes.
15,284. Did you manage to pay it up the first year?-Yes; and I
had 5s. clear.
15,285. Did you ask on that occasion for payment of part of your
earnings in cash?-Yes; when I came home I got the 5s. which I
had clear. I had had all the rest in goods.
15,286. Did you not want to let part of the goods stand on an
account?-No.
15,287. You wanted to pay it all up and to be clear?-Yes.
15,288. Did you continue to engage with Mr. Leask for some years
after that?-For two years; and then I went to Mr. Tait.
15,289. Why did you go to him then?-Partly because I wanted a
longer voyage; I wanted to go to Davis Straits.
15,290. Had Mr. Leask no ships going the long voyage that
year?-Yes.
15,291. Could you not have got a berth from him?-Yes, if I had
asked for it.
15,292. Why did you not ask for it?-I did not just incline.
15,293. Why did you not incline?-I had no particular reason for
it.
15,294. Had you run up an account with Mr. Leask the year
before?-Yes.
15,295. Had you left him clear?-Yes; and I had got £2 in cash.
15,296. Had you a second payment of oil-money to get that
year?-Yes.
15,297. Did you get payment of that in money?-Yes.
15,298. Was that before or after you had engaged with Mr. Tait?-
It was before.
15,299. How long did you continue with Mr. Tait?-I went five
voyages with him.
15,300. Did you get all your supplies during that time from him?-
Yes, whatever I asked or wanted.
15,301. Did you always get your balances paid to you in cash?-
Yes.
15,302. Had you no difficulty in getting that?-No; whenever I
asked them I always got them.
15,303. Were you not sometimes asked to take them in goods?-
No. They would ask you if you wanted anything, but that was all;
and I got my things as good there as at any other place.
15,304. Had you not, in one of these years, to ask more than once
for the money?-No, not to my recollection. If I asked for the
money I always got it.
15,305. Was it paid to you in Mr. Tait's office beside the shop?-
Yes. I went through the shop into the office, and Mr. Tait settled
with me there.
15,306. Did he or any of his people always ask you if you wanted
any goods when you went to get your settlement?-No, he did not
ask me; but sometimes they would ask me if I wanted anything
when I came out from settlement. We could either take it or leave
it, any way we liked.
15,307. In some of these years, were there a great number of men
going to Greenland?-Yes.
15,308. Were there sometimes more than there were berths for?-
Yes.
15,309. But you never lost a berth?-No; whenever I asked it I got
it.
15,310. Were you not known to the agents to be a good seaman,
and were you not always on good terms with them?-I never was
on bad terms with them, and I always got a berth when I wanted it.
15,311. But you always had an account with your agent?-Yes.
15,312. And a good lot of supplies?-Sometimes not very much,
but sometimes I had a good lot.
15,313. Do you think the fact of your having a pretty large account
had anything to do with your always getting a berth?-I don't
think it. Sometimes I would have a good account with one agent,
and go to another agent and get a ship from him.
15,314. Did you not always take your supplies principally from
the agent with whom you were engaging for the year?-Yes,
principally.
15,315. You were five years with Mr. Tait; that would be down to
1866: who did you go to then?-I went back to Mr. Leask.
15,316. Have you been engaged with him ever since?-No; I was
with Mr. Tulloch in 1868.
15,317. Why did you leave Mr. Leask at that time?-I don't know.
The ship was not in that I was going with, and I just shipped in
another one.
15,318. Did you take your supplies from Mr. Tulloch that year?-
Yes, whatever small things I wanted.
15,319. Had you been quite clear with Mr. Leask the year before,
and got payment of your balance in money?-Yes. I got paid in
the Custom House that year.
15,320. Was the amount of your account at Mr. Leask's shop
deducted when they paid you at the Custom House?-Yes.
15,321. Then it was merely the balance that was paid to you
there?-No; I got the full amount, and paid them back.
15,322. Did you go down to the shop and pay them back there?-
Yes.
15,323. Had you seen your account at the shop before?-Yes.
15,324. Is that the way in which you have been settled with ever
since?-Yes.
15,325. You see your account beforehand, and then go up to the
Custom House, get payment of the cash, and then you bring down
the money and settle your account?-Yes.
15,326. When you left the shop after seeing your account and went
up to the Custom House, were you told to come back and pay your
account the same day?-Yes.
15,327. You were always reminded of that?-Yes.
15,328. And when you came back to pay your account, were you
asked if you wanted any more goods?-No. I did not buy anything
unless I chose.
15,329. Do you generally get your last payment of oil-money in
cash, or in goods?-In cash; but if I want them, I can get it in
goods.
15,330. Do you sometimes want it in goods?-Sometimes we may
take some trifling things on it if we want them, but if not we get it
all in money.
15,331. Have you any reason to complain of having to go to the
Custom House and then to go down to the shop and pay your
money?-No.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JAMES COUTTS, recalled.
15,332. You have now produced to me the book containing
your transactions in the brokery line: are all [Page 388] your
transactions in that business entered there?-Yes, so far as I know.
15,333. These transactions do not appear to have amounted, on
the whole, to more than two or three per month on an average?-
There might be that in some months, but in other months there
would be nothing. It was a rare case when I bought anything in
that way at all; it was merely when anything was brought to me
that I thought worth buying.
15,334. Were these articles paid for in cash or in provisions?-
In cash first, and then the people might spend it in provisions
afterwards. I have seen me get all the money back again before
they went out.
15,335. Have you known many instances of knitters bringing
goods or articles of dress to you and selling them?-I never
questioned them about that. If they came with an article, I asked
their name and the price, but that was all. I have also asked them
if they were sure it was not stolen; I was very particular about that.
15,336. Have they ever told you that the goods they were selling
were goods that they had got for knitting?-I recollect them saying
once or twice that they had taken them for their hosiery, but they
took money from me when I bought the goods from them.
15,337. But they told you they had got these goods for hosiery?-
They had perhaps got them out of certain shops; but I believe they
had generally got them on credit, until they had something made
which would pay for them.
15,338. Were these women employed in knitting?-Yes; but there
were only one or two cases of that kind.
15,339. But you have known two or three cases in which women,
known to you to be knitters, came with goods in that way and sold
them?-Yes, they would say they had got them from so and so; but
I don't recollect any particular party.
15,340. Can you point to any of these transactions in the book?-
No; I don't recollect whether the articles that were entered in the
book were got from knitters or from other parties. Sometimes they
wanted cash for their goods, because they could not get cash at the
shop where they were dealing.
15,341. But, in these circumstances, the people who were refused
the cash got the goods, as you understood at the time?-Yes, I
understood so.
15,342. And they took the goods, and brought them to you and got
the cash?-Yes.
15,343. Did you know that these goods were got at a shop where
hosiery was taken?-I cannot tell; I never asked about that. They
may have said so but perhaps that might have been false.
15,344. Did they give the name of any party from whom they had
got the goods?-No; they just said they had got the goods when
they could not get the cash.
15,345. May that have been said half a dozen times?-Not so
many. I only recollect hearing of it once or twice.
15,346. Do you say that it has not happened half a dozen times in
the ten or eleven years that you have been in business?-I don't
recollect it happening so often as that. I just recollect hearing it
spoke about.
15,347. Do people sometimes come to you yet offering articles for
sale, although you have given up that part of your business?-Yes,
occasionally; but not so much now as before I gave it up.
15,348. Do you not sometimes take them still?-I don't think I
have taken any since the 1st entry in the book on April 15, 1870.
15,349. Are you quite sure that you have never bought any article
at all in your shop since then?-Not that I recollect.
15,350. Would you be likely to forget if you had done it?-I don't
know; but I have not done it, so far as my recollection goes. I
have once bought a jacket which I wore myself; but it was from a
friend, a party that I knew, and it was not a thing that I was in the
way of buying.
15,351. Can you swear that you have not had more than half a
dozen applications, in the whole course of your business, from
women whom you knew or supposed to be knitters, asking you to
give them money or provisions for goods which they had got for
their hosiery?-They never asked provisions for them. If they
wanted provisions, they took them out afterwards; they just asked
for the cash, and I gave them what I thought the article was worth
to me.
15,352. Do you swear that you have not had more than half a
dozen such applications in the course of your business?-I don't
recollect more than one or two. Of course, I did not ask them
pointedly where they had got the articles, or how they had got
them, except merely that I wished to know that the articles had
not been got in a dishonest way.
15,353. But I see that a great number of the entries in the book
relate to transactions with females?-Yes.
15,354. Can you swear that the majority of these women were not
knitters who were in the habit of dealing with hosiery shops, and
who came to you and got cash for the goods which they had got
there?-That might have been so, but I really cannot say.
15,355. Can you swear that one out of every two of these women
did not come and sell goods to you which she had got in that
way?-She might have got them in that way, but I cannot tell.
15,356. Were most of the purchases which you made, of new
articles or of old?-The greater part of the things had been worn.
15,357. Do you think there was any other way in which the
women got these articles, except by getting them from the hosiery
shops?-Certainly.
15,358. Were there some of them which had been got at the
agents' shops where the women were supplied, while the men
were away at the fishing?-They might have had accounts at these
shops, and got goods there in part payment for the men's wages.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, Mrs. BARBARA DALZELL, examined.
15,359. Do you live in Scalloway Road, Lerwick?-Yes.
15,360. Have you been in the habit of knitting and selling your
goods, or have you knitted with your own wool?-I have both
knitted with merchants' wool and with wool of my own.
15,361. Have you knitted for a long time, and had a great deal
of experience in it?-I have knitted for about thirty-two or
thirty-three years. During that time I have knitted mostly with
my own wool.
15,362. How have you been paid for your hosiery?-Either in
money or goods.
15,363. Have you ever been paid altogether in money?-Yes,
often.
15,364. Is it not the usual way in Lerwick to pay for hosiery in
goods only?-Yes, that is generally the way in which most of them
do.
15,365. Why has an exception been made in your case?-I don't
think any exception has been made with me. Whenever I brought
a good article to the merchants I asked money for it, and when I
thought it was an inferior article I never thought of asking for
money.
15,366. Was it generally very fine articles that you knitted?-Not
particularly fine, but I have sometimes knitted very fine articles.
15,367. Was it only for the very fine articles that you got the
money?-It was only for them that I asked the money.
15,368. How much was the largest sum you got at one time?-I
think I have got as much as £5 at one time from Mr. Arthur
Laurenson, but I am not sure; his books will show.
15,369. Did you get that money for one article?-Not for one
article. It was for a number.
15,370. Was it on an account with him that you got that?-Yes;
but I do not remember the exact sum.
[Page 389]
15,371. What did you get it for?-There was a cloak and several
other articles, and the balances upon several shawls which I had
been leaving with him.
15,372. For what purpose did you get so much money?-I cannot
remember exactly. I had a reason at the time for asking so much,
but I don't remember asking the money when I sold the articles.
15,373. But you had a special reason for wanting that money?-
Yes. I would rather not mention what it was, unless it is
necessary.
15,374. Did you tell Mr. Laurenson the reason?-Yes.
15,375. Did you get all the money that was due to you at that
time?-Yes. I sent a girl who was living in my house at the time
to Mr. Laurenson for the cash, and he sent the balance by her, and
a line along with it to show that he had paid it.
15,376. Was there not a discount taken off because you had got it
in cash?-There was nothing taken off.
15,377. What was the next largest sum that you got at any one
time?-I have got £3 at one time from Mr. Robert Linklater.
15,378. Was there any special reason for that?-I got it for a very
fine cloak which I sold to him.
15,379. Did you sell it to him for a money price?-I sold it, and
asked the money, and got it from him there and then.
15,380. Did you ever get as much as that on any other occasion?-
No; but I have often got £2, which is generally considered the
price of a good cloak.
15,381. Did you sell it to them for that in cash?-Yes.