Lerwick, January 29, 1872, Mrs. CATHERINE WILLIAMSON,
recalled.
14,291. I understand you wish to make a correction on the
evidence you gave on the first day of this inquiry?-Yes. I stated
that I had sold a shawl to Mr. Laurenson; but I should have said it
was to Mr. George Laurence, Commercial Street, Lerwick, and not
to Mr. Arthur Laurenson.
14,292. Was the rest of your evidence correct?-Yes.
[Page 357]
Lerwick, January 29, 1872, ANDREW B. JAMIESON, recalled.
14,293. Do you wish to make any addition to your former
evidence?-Yes. I wish to say with regard to the Accountant to
the Board of Trade's report, that I consider it unjust to the agents
concerned in the Greenland trade, and I concur generally in all that
was said by Mr. William Robertson on that point.
14,294. Is there any particular fact in that report, apart from
matters of opinion, which you think is incorrectly stated?-
The report commences: 'In accordance with my instructions, I
paid special attention to the circumstances attending the official
discharge of Shetland seamen after voyages made in whaling
vessels, great difficulty and delay having been experienced by the
Board of Trade in getting the releases for such voyages completed
within anything like a reasonable time.' I do not consider that to
be correct. The Board of Trade never fixed a time for the releases
to be completed, and consequently the men do not come for their
settlement until it suits their own convenience.
14,295. Do you mean that before 1868 no rule existed on that
subject?-There is no time fixed even now for the men to come.
14,296. Does not the third head of the regulations provide
that, when the men are landed, the master shall deliver the
store-book, and that the balances due shall be paid in presence
of the superintendent?-The master does deliver the store-book
when the crew are landed, but the regulation does not say that the
men are to appear immediately before the superintendent. If they
would remain in town, that would be done; but they prefer going
home, especially when they are not required by the regulations to
remain.
14,297. The Merchant Shipping Act provides that the master or
owner shall pay the wages of every seaman within three days
after the cargo has been delivered, or within five days after the
seaman's discharge, whichever first happens?-These are the
terms of the Act; but that never was the rule in the Greenland
trade, because the men are landed in any part of Shetland the ship
first comes to, and the men never come forward to Lerwick to be
settled with until it suits them to come.
14,298. I don't know that Mr. Hamilton lays the blame upon the
agents for the delay in getting the releases completed?-Not in
that sentence, but he does so subsequently in his report. He says,
'When the whalers return after a short and successful voyage, it is,
under this system, manifestly to the agent's interest that the
Shetland portion of the crews should not be settled with at once.'
14,299. Do you say that that is not for the agent's interest?-I say
that it is not. It is not for his interest to delay the settlement, and
the settlement is not delayed by him.
14,300. Is it not for the agent's interest to have the money in his
hands as long as possible?-Perhaps if he has the money in his
hands, he may make a few shillings of interest; but when the men
come forward individually to settle, there is more time spent in
making the settlement than any profit he can make can cover.
Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'But no time is fixed for settlement, and
the consequence is that it is the interest of the agent to delay it
until he gets the man in debt to him again, and when he does
pay to the man the balance of wages due to him before the
superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all back to
the agent at once, to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater
amount.' That statement is not consistent with fact.
14,301. Is it not true, as you have already stated, that the seamen
do hand back to the agent the money which they have got?-Yes,
but it is not true that they are indebted to the agent in an equal or
greater amount.
14,302. You think the amount of debt is not generally equal to the
amount payable in wages?-I am quite sure it is not.
14,303. Was it, at any time in your experience, common for a man
to have an amount of debt to the agent equal to the amount of his
wages and oil-money?-Very often, when they had made a bad
voyage, the younger hands would be in debt.
14,304. Mr. Hamilton says, in another part of his report: 'For this
purpose to engage the men at Lerwick, they employ agents in
Lerwick, who get, I am informed, little direct profit from their
agency. Their chief profit arises from what they can make out of
the earnings of the men;' is there anything incorrect in that, in
point of fact?-It is quite correct that the agents have little direct
profit from their agency. The remuneration is quite inadequate for
the amount of work and expense connected with the trade. Then
he says, 'These agents are all shopkeepers, and most of them are
proprietors of land themselves, or act as land agents for others.'
There are only four agents altogether, and there are only two of
them who are proprietors of any quantity of land. The others do
not act as land agents, so far as ever I heard. 'Many of the men
engaged are utterly unable, without the assistance of the agents, to
provide themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage.'
That applies chiefly to the young hands, who require extra clothing
when going to such a cold climate, and they get it from the agents.
'It is quite common for allotments of wages to be made out in
favour of the agents.' I never saw that. It is not done in Mr.
Leask's business. Of course I cannot speak with certainty for
the others, but am pretty certain it is not done in any case.
14,305. In your experience the seaman takes no allotment note at
all, so that the only advances which are got during his absence are
those which are made through the agent in the shape of supplies to
his family, without any allotment note being required?-Yes. We
have always done so.
14,306. But the agent is quite aware that no allotment note has
been granted?-Yes.
14,307. So that the effect is just the same as if the allotment note
had been given to the agent?-It is not quite the same in settling
with them, because we have to pay the whole money to the men;
whereas, if an allotment had been granted, it would have been
deducted.
14,308. But if there is no allotment note made out to the man, and
given to his wife or any of his friends, the agent has not to pay the
money away?-No.
14,309. So that he is in perfect safety to make advances in the
shape of any supplies which may be required during the man's
absence?-He is quite safe to do that if the man pays him back
at the end of the voltage.
14,310. At least he is in greater safety than if the man's friends
were in a position to draw part of his wages during his absence,
because he knows that the wages cannot be spent?-Yes. If the
man's family have a note, that is all the advance they require in
general; but as it is when a family have a weekly allowance, I
should say they get about one half of their allowance in cash.
14,311. Do the families have a weekly allowance from the
agent?-In some cases.
14,312. Is that done by private arrangement?-Yes.
14,313. Are these families residing in Lerwick, or mostly in the
country?-Mostly in Lerwick. Families residing in the country
only send in occasionally for anything they may require, but they
are not by any means bound to do it.
14,314. But is it a common thing for the families of men residing
in Lerwick, or near it, to get a weekly advance in provisions or in
money?-It is quite common.
14,315. Is it mostly in provisions or mostly in money that that
advance is given?-I think it is about one half in money. They
always get some money.
14,316. Is that entered in the man's account?-Yes. Then it is
not correct to say that a man who wants to take his outfit from any
shopkeeper is practically debarred from doing so. He can do so if
he likes.
14,317. Does he ever do it?-There is no doubt he does.
14,318. Have you ever known any case of a man doing so?-Yes,
plenty. We know that when a man does not get goods from us, he
must get them somewhere else.
[Page 358]
14,319. But he may have had an outfit before, and did not require a
fresh one for that voyage?-He may.
14,320. Have you ever known a man who required an outfit for a
voyage taking it from any agent but the one who engaged him?-
Yes.
14,321. Can you name any case of that kind?-I could not exactly
name a case.
14,322. Could you show me any case in your books in which the
man has not got some outfit from you?-Not very many, I think.
On short voyages to the sealing, a considerable number of the men
would not require it. Men who had been going there for years, and
who were only going on a short voyage, would be well enough
provided with clothes. Generally men who get good wages are all
provided with their necessary outfit.
14,323. But you think you could show me very few cases in your
books in which a man did not require some outfit and did not get
it from you?-On long voyages perhaps there are not many.
14,324. Did you ever supply an outfit to a man going on a whaling
voyage upon the engagement of any of the other agents?-I think
not exactly an outfit; but we have sold them individual articles.
14,325. Did you ever do that on credit?-I daresay we have.
14,326. Do you know that you have?-Yes.
14,327. In what case?-I could not exactly name a case, because if
a man comes in wanting to buy anything we sell it to him, if the
other agent did not have it, or he did not choose to take it from
him. I know that has been the case both with us and with others.
14,328. Have you run an account with the man for that?-If he
was well known to us, we would have no objection to give him
credit.
14,329. But can you name the case of any man who was engaged
for the whaling by another agent and who received credit from
you?-I could not name a case. It is done just in the ordinary way
of trade, and we would not pay any attention to a case like that.
We could not be expected to recollect where every customer was
going.
14,330. Is it not the case that every man who engages with you
does take so much of his outfit as he requires from Mr. Leask's
shop?-I think that is very generally the case; but he does it
because he chooses to do it, and because, I suppose, he thinks he
will be as well served there as by going elsewhere. With regard to
the report, again, I say that the greater proportion of the men are
settled with in a reasonable time.
14,331. Do you mean within six months?-The greater proportion
of them are settled with in one month.
14,332. That is the case now?-Yes.
14,333. But formerly the time was considerably greater, was it
not?-I don't think there was much difference. The men came
then when it suited them, and they do the same now, except when
they are all landed in Lerwick at one time, and choose to stay few
days in town to get the settlement carried through. They are not
bound to a day now more than they were then; but the releases and
official papers in the Custom House can prove the proportion of
men discharged within the month.
14,334. Mr. Robertson showed me some accounts with Greenland
whaling men in which there was a charge for insurance upon
outfits: is that an arrangement made by you with the men?-Yes.
14,335. Have you explained to them the nature of the charge, and
why it was made before entering it in your books against them?-
Yes; we have been doing that for the last fifteen years at least. If
the vessel is lost, then the men don't pay for the outfit; it is paid by
the insurance.
14,336. Mr. Leask is also an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners'
Fund, and there is a charge of 3s. made at the beginning of each
man's account for a payment to that Fund?-Yes.
14,337. Does that 3s. cover the loss of clothing?-They get that in
addition. When the vessel is lost, the man gets an allowance for
clothing, and also the payment from the Shipwrecked Mariners'
Fund. He gets the allowance for clothing in this way: that he pays
nothing for the goods if the vessel is lost, and then he gets the
allowance from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society in addition,
and is sent home free if he is landed in any part of the kingdom.
14,338. Therefore that is a double insurance?-Yes.
14,339. If a man is lost, his widow, in return for the 3s., gets an
annuity or some allowance?-Yes. The amount of it depends on
the number of years he has subscribed, and the number of his
family. It varies considerably; but she gets an allowance at first,
and generally a small annual grant.
14,340. Is that 3s. paid in every case when the men are going
to Greenland?-It is such a small payment, and they have
experienced so much benefit from it, that they never object to
it now.
14,341. I suppose that charge is entered in a man's account as a
matter of course?-Yes.
14,342. You say that if a man who subscribes that 3s. loses his
outfit, or his boat, or anything, that is covered by the insurance,
and he is entitled to a certain payment, which is made by the
agents?-Yes.
14,343. Is that payment always made in cash?-Always.
14,344. How long is it since it has been universally made in cash at
your agency?-It has always been made in cash, so far as I had to
do with it.
14,345. Do you remember of any sums of a few pounds in cash
being paid from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-There are
often payments of that kind.
14,346. Do you remember any case of it man being refused
payment of his allowance in cash?-No.
14,347. Or being asked to take goods?-No, I don't recollect any
such case.
14,348. Do you remember the case of a man named Williamson
from Coningsburgh having a claim against Mr. Leask, as agent for
the Society, in respect of a loss which he had sustained, and falling
within the conditions of the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-I
don't recollect anything about the case or about the man.
14,349. Do you remember any case where the amount due from
the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund was put to the credit of a person
insured, in order to reduce the debt due by him to Mr. Leask?-
No, I don't recollect any such case.
14,350. Can you say that that has never been done?-I cannot say
that exactly. Perhaps if the man chose to put the money to his
account it would be done.
14,351. But can you say it has never been done where the man did
not choose to put the money to his account?-It has never been
done where the man did not choose, so far as I know.
14,352. Do you know any case in which Mr. Leask has asked the
man to do it, or has proposed to do it, and the man has resisted?-
No.
14,353. Is an allowance of that kind sometimes put to the credit of
a man who has an account in Mr. Leask's books, and taken out in
goods in the course of the year?-It may be in some cases.
14,354. Is it not usually the case when a sum of that kind falls due
that it is entered to the man's credit?-That is not usually the case,
because nobody knows whether it will be paid or not, or whether
the man will have a claim to receive money.
14,355. But when you know that it is due, and that it is to be paid,
and the man happens to have an account, is the amount not just
entered in that account and credited to the man?-It may be in
some cases, but it is only when a man is wrecked that he is entitled
to any allowance from the Society; we don't know when he is to
be wrecked, and therefore he cannot get advances on the faith of a
claim against the Society.
14,356. I am not speaking about advances on the faith of a claim;
but when the money is due, is it not generally put into the man's
account?-Not generally, but there may have been a case or two of
that kind.
14,357. Is it generally handed over to him in cash?-Generally.
[Page 359]
14,358. Even when a man has an account, and when the balance
of that account is against him?-The man perhaps will not require
it to be handed over to him if he had an account and wished the
amount of his debt to be reduced by putting that to it. In that case
there would be very little occasion for a transfer of the cash, but I
can scarcely recollect any cases of that kind.
14,359. I am not asking whether the man wishes it or not, I am
asking whether it is ever done, or whether it is generally done?-I
should say it is not generally done. I would say it is almost never
done.
14,360. How many of these payments have you to make in the
course of a year?-In some years there are very few.
14,361. Will there sometimes be a dozen?-Perhaps there may,
but I could not say, without the books.
14,362. And you say that out of the dozen payments which you
make, one half of them will pass through the men's accounts?-
No, I should not say that.
14,363. Should you say that three out of every dozen did so?-No,
I should not even say that.
14,364. Should you say that one in every dozen passed through
the men's accounts?-I might say one, but I could not be sure. It
might be less, or it might be none at all.
14,365. Might it not be more?-It is not a regular business
transaction at all, and it is very seldom that such a thing ever
enters the accounts. It is a present payment for an accident
happening to a man, and he just gets the money, and there is no
more about it; but it might happen occasionally that he applied it
towards payment of a debt.
14,366. The premium or subscription of 3s. universally passes into
the man's account?-Yes.
14,367. I cannot quite see why the payment of a policy should not
also go into the man's account if he has one?-It is only when a
man is wrecked that such it payment is to be made. There are
many men who have been paying for twenty or thirty years, and
have never had occasion to claim against the Society, while there
are others who have.
14,368. But if a man happens to have an account running with Mr.
Leask, do you say that the payment is made to him in cash rather
than put in to the account?-No, I don't say that, because the man
might make no difficulty in applying it to his account, if he had
one; but we are applying for men from different parts of the
country who have no account with us, and in these cases the
money is paid over at once.
14,369. In the majority of cases in which the money is paid
through you when it is due, is it not to the men who have paid
their premium through you?-By no means. We issue a great
many tickets to men who are not in our employment at all,-men
going south, and fishermen on the islands. I think we are generally
called upon to make applications in cases of loss in preference to
the other agents, and that money is paid over to the men at once.
14,370. Then do you say it is the case that the money is entered in
the man's account whenever he has an account with you?-If the
man to whom the money was to be paid had an account, it might
probably be put to that account; but of course it would only be
done with the man's concurrence.
14,371. Did you ever know any man object to that being done?-I
cannot say that I ever did.
14,372. Are you sure that you never did?-Yes, I am sure.
14,373. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I wish to correct
the statement made in the report, that it is the interest of the agent
to delay the settlement until he gets the man in debt to him again.
I say that is not the fact.
14,374. Is it not the fact that that is the interest of the agent?-It
may be the interest of the agent, but it is never done.
14,375. The report only says that it is the interest of the agent: it
does not state that he does it?-I think it does. It says that the man
is indebted to the agent in an equal or greater amount, and that it is
the interest of the agent to delay settlement until he gets the man
in debt to him again. What I object to in that statement is the
impression conveyed by it, that all the men are in debt to an equal
or greater extent than their earnings. I think that is the way in
which the statement would naturally be read; but, as a rule, the
men do not run accounts after they come home until they settle,
and then they will only buy what they require. They are never
importuned to buy or to take goods, nor is the settlement delayed
for that purpose.
14,376. You say the men are never importuned to buy anything.
Are they not asked at settlement if they want anything?-No.
Their money is paid them as soon as they call for it, without any
demur.
14,377. I know it is; but are they not asked at that time if they want
to take any goods?-After they have got their money we may ask
them if they want anything; and if they are as well served by us as
elsewhere, sometimes they do buy some goods.
14,378. I suppose in a number of cases the men are quite ready to
take what they want from your shop, and to pay for it with the cash
they have got?-Yes.*
*Mr Jamieson afterwards put in the following Return in
supplement of his evidence:-
RETURN relative to the Discharge of Greenland Seamen from
Vessels for which Mr. JOSEPH LEASK was Agent. Year 1871.
Ship's Name and Voyage No. of men Date of Place of
En-gaged Landing Landing
a Camperdown, sealing voyage 33 Apr. 30 Lerwick
b Polynia, sealing voyage 34 Apr. 17 Lerwick
c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 30 Apr. 17 Lerwick
d Narwhal, sealing voyage 29 Apr. 21 Scalloway
e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 31 Apr. 17 Lerwick
f Victor, sealing voyage 30 June 1 Lerwick
g Alibi, sealing and
whaling voyage 19 July 21 near Scalloway
h Total 206 62 52
i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits
whaling voyage 20 Oct. 26 Lerwick
j Polynia, Davis Straits
whaling voyage 19 Oct. 26 Lerwick
k Narwhal, Davis Straits
whaling voyage 14 Oct. 29 Scalloway
l Camperdown, Davis Straits
Whaling voyage 26 Nov. 11 Lerwick <via>
Longhope
m Total 79
Ship's Name and Voyage Numbers Discharged in
Apr. May June July
a Camperdown, sealing voyage 25
b Polynia, sealing voyage 12 11
c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 15 3
d Narwhal, sealing voyage 13 9
e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 22 4
f Victor, sealing voyage 19 5
g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 4
h Total 62 52 19 9
i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits
whaling voyage
j Polynia, Davis Straits
whaling voyage 19
k Narwhal, Davis Straits
whaling voyage 14
l Camperdown, Davis Straits
Whaling voyage
m Total
79