<Present>-MR GUTHRIE.
JAMES POTTINGER, examined.
13,524. Are you a fisherman residing in Burra?-Yes. I live with
my father, who is a tenant there.
13,525 I understand you wish to make some statement; what is it
about?-It is about the way in which I have been served in Burra.
My father and I had to spend upwards of £12 on repairs on the
house where we lived about 1865; and in January 1866, when I
was in Messrs Hay's employment, they asked me for extra for peat
leave, because we put a small chimney in the bedroom end of our
house. I refused to pay it, but when Mr. Irvine settled with me he
paid me all except the pound, which he kept.
13,526. What employment were you in then?-I had been at
Liverpool with a cargo. I was not at the fishing at the time; I was
settling up for my voyage to Liverpool at the time when the pound
was taken off.
13,527. Had you got any supplies during that winter from Hay &
Co.?-I did not have much.
13,528. Had you been in their employment the summer
previous?-No; I had been in Messrs Harrison & Son's
employment at the Faroe fishing. When Mr. Irvine would not
give me the pound I said I would not sign the books, and I have
not signed my account yet. The thing ran on from then until last
year, when my father was charged £4 for the extra peat leave. He
came back to Burra and asked me what he should do, and then he
went in again to Lerwick and paid it. Then, this year, I went in to
Mr. Irvine and asked him if he was not to take off the pound, and
he said he would never take it off; and when my father settled this
year again he had to pay it.
13,529. Then that is a charge made upon your father and not upon
you?-Yes.
13,530 Is your father the tenant?-He is, but I went in and paid
half of the rent and got a receipt for that half; but the pound was
not included in it.
13,531. Why was it not charged upon you?-Because he gripped
my father for me.
13,532. But why was it not charged upon you first?-Mr. Irvine
told me that we were burning two fires in the house, and that I
would have to pay that, but I would not do it
13,533. Had you built an addition to the house when you were
married?-I was at the expense of building it. It was a new end to
the house that was built then.
13,534. Is it a rule that all who live on the island and burn a fire
have to pay peat leave?-Every house has the same privilege that I
have, but none of them pay it except myself.
13,535. How do you mean that they have the privilege?-They
have a small chimney in the bedroom, the other apartment in the
house, the same as I have.
13,536. Why do you come to me to complain of that?-I did not
think it would do any good, but I thought I would let you know
that such a thing was done, because I think it is unfair.
13,537. Has it anything to do with the fishing?-No.
13,538. Were you ever in Messrs. Hay's employment at the
fishing?-I was three years in their vessels as a lad, but that is
twelve years ago. I have been twelve years in Messrs. Harrison's
employment.
[Page 337]
13,539. Did you leave Messrs. Hay and go to Messrs. Harrison?-
Yes.
13,540. Did Messrs. Hay object to one of their tenant's sons
leaving their employment and going to fish in the smack of
another curer?-No.
13,541. Have you been asked to go in Messrs. Hay's smacks
since?-Yes. Mr. Irvine asked me to go in their vessels both in
1866 and 1867, in both of which years I had vessels from them in
the winter time, but I told Mr. Irvine that I would not leave the
vessel or the employ I was in and go with them.
13,542. Was it before or after you were charged that sum for peat
leave that you were asked to go?-It was in the same year. 1866
was the first time I had to pay £1 of peat leave.
13,543. But you said you were charged with that in January 1866;
was it before or after January 1866 that Mr. Irvine asked you to
go in his Faroe vessel?-It was both before and after I went to
Liverpool for Messrs. Hay in the 'North Sea Queen.'
13,544. Was it some time after you came back from Liverpool that
you were settled with?-No; it was in the same week or the week
after.
13,545. Had you seen Mr. Irvine after you came back and before
you settled with him?-Yes.
13,546. Was it when you first came back that he asked you to go to
Faroe in the following season?-It was at the time when I settled,
and also when I joined the vessel.
13,547. Do you think if you had not refused to go in one of Messrs.
Hay's vessels to the Faroe fishing you would have been charged
with peat leave?-I don't know about that.
13,548. Is the charge for peats just so much for each fire that is
burned?-We don't know; it is just included in the rent.
13,549. Is it not charged separately from the rent?-No; it is all
put together, so far as I know; it is all called land-rent.
13,550. Have you any note of your settlement with Mr. Irvine in
1866?-No. I don't think I got any receipt then; but I got a receipt
yesterday when I paid the half-year's rent.
13,551. I suppose the people in Burra were quite at liberty to go
to the Faroe fishing with any person they pleased during the last
twelve years?-No, some of them were not at liberty, but I was at
liberty because I had charge of a vessel. A single man who was
not master of a vessel did not have liberty.
13,552. How do you know that?-Because I have been told of
tenants who had to pay £1 in consequence of their sons going to
the Faroe fishing. Andrew Laurenson paid £1 for going to Faroe
in Messrs. Harrison's employ, and he has not got it back. I don't
know any one else who has not got the money back except him;
but there may be others who had to pay it, and who have not got it
back.
13,553. Were a number of the young men obliged to go to the
fishing in Hay & Co.'s vessels?-A good few of them went in
their vessels, and some of them left and went in the vessels of
other owners.
13,554. But did you know of any man leaving another owner's
vessel in which he was engaged, and going in one of Hay & Co.'s
because they required him to do so?-No; I only know that money
was paid for that.
13,555. Do you understand that if you had not been a master,
but had been merely an ordinary seaman, you would have been
obliged to go in Messrs. Hay's vessels?-So far as I know, I
would.
13,556. Would you have been bound to do so if they had offered
you as good a vessel as master as the one you were going in?-I
don't think it; I never heard anything about that. I wish to say that
I could get turf from another island which would not cost me over
one-fourth of the pound which Hay & Co. charged me for peat
leave. My father asked Mr. Irvine yesterday whether, if I got the
turf in that way, he would take the pound off me, and he said he
would not.
13,557. What kind of agreement do you sign with Harrison & Co.
when you go to the Faroe fishing?-It is a written agreement.
13,558. I suppose the fishermen in the Faroe fishing regard
themselves as partners with the owners of the ship to the extent
of one half?-Yes, that is what we sign for.
13,559. The owners of the ship are always the curers that you
deliver the fish to?-Yes.
13,560. And I suppose the owners employ men as curers?-Yes.
13,561. The payment which the fishermen get at the end of the
year will depend a good deal upon the way in which the fish are
cured, because, if they are ill cured, the fishermen will receive less
money?-Yes.
13,562. Or if the fish are ill sold the fishermen will also suffer?-
Yes.
13,563. Therefore the fishermen have as much interest in the
curing and sale of the fish as the owner has?-Yes.
13,564. But I suppose you leave the management of these matters
in the hands of the owners?-Yes; the owners have all the
management.
13,565. Is it understood in the Faroe fishing that you get one half
of the actual returns from the fishing?-They tell us so.
13,566. It is not according to any current price that you get it, but it
is one half of the actual price at which the fish are sold which you
are to get?-Yes.
13,567. And you trust entirely to the owners to obtain that price,
and to account to you for one half of that, under certain
deductions?-Yes.
13,568. Do you know what deductions are allowed before the
proceeds of the fish are divided?-I cannot tell; I have seen it all
in the agreement, but I cannot recollect what it is just now. It is
every man's wish to see a bill of sale for their fish at settling time,
but such a thing has never been asked for. I have never asked for
it so long as I have gone to the fishing.
13,569. You think you ought to see the bill of sale?-Yes; and that
is the opinion of all the fishermen, so far as I know.
13,570. Do the men in Harrison & Son's employment undertake to
be ready to join the vessel for putting in salt, bending sails, and so
forth, at a certain time before the vessel leaves?-Yes, and that is
usually done.
13,571. How long are you bound to remain in the vessel?-Until
about 13th August.
13,572. On board the vessel, what do you do with the fish when
you catch them?-We bleed them, and wash and split them, and
salt them in the hold, and generally prepare them so as to fetch the
best market.
13,573. The deductions which are charged before dividing the fish
are the expenses of curing and the price of the salt?-Yes. They
put the salt and curing altogether, and charge £2, 10s. for that.
13,574. They do not charge the actual cost, but make a slump
charge for the whole work?-Yes.
13,575. There is also an allowance deducted of 10s. per ton to the
master, and 2s. 6d. to the mate?-Yes.
13,576. And the agreement which you sign provides for a certain
quantity of bread for each man?-Yes, 8 lbs. of bread per week;
and there is an allowance of 9d. for score money. The score
money is paid before the division is made, so that one half is paid
by the owners and one half by the men themselves.
13,577. Is it also part of the bargain, that the fishermen are liable
for breaking lines or spoiling any part of the vessel?-Yes.
13,578. On returning you put the vessel into dock and unbend the
sails?-Yes.
13,579. There is a stipulation in the agreement against smuggling,
is there not?-Yes.
13,580. Is there any smuggling carried on at Faroe-Not a great
deal now.
13,581. Is there any arrangement about going farther north than
Faroe if required?-Yes; if the master thinks it prudent to go to
Iceland or elsewhere before a certain time, the men are taken
bound to go, and in that case they are paid by wages, which are
fixed in the agreement. They begin to run from the 13th or [Page
338] the middle of August, and continue till 1st October. But if
we are going to Iceland during the summer, the men run their
share of the fishing the same as they do at Faroe.
13,582. It is only for a late voyage to Iceland that they get
wages?-Yes.
13,583. Do you often go upon these late voyages?-I have done so
for the last few years.
13,584. Are the men bound to go upon them?-They are bound to
go if the master or owners require them; but there are plenty of
men to be got at that period of the year, so that if any man wants
his liberty then he can get it.
13,585. You can fill up your crew from other boats which are not
going upon these late voyages?-Yes.
13,586. Does the Iceland voyage commence from Foroe, or do you
come to from Lerwick first?-We come back to Lerwick.
13,587. There is a scale of victualling for that voyage contained in
the agreement?-Yes.
13,588. The men don't provide their own food?-No; it is
provided by the owners. The men provide nothing.
13,589. There is a less supply of bread on the Iceland voyage than
on the other voyage, is there not?-Very little less. They have 8
lbs. per week in the summer time, and 7 lbs. at Iceland.
13,590. Do you always get ample supplies according to your
agreement?-Yes.
13,591. Do you also get your small stores and outfits from the
owner's shop?-Yes. We always go to his shop for what we want
at leaving.
13,592. Do you also run an account with Messrs. Harrison for
supplies to your family during your absence?-Perhaps some of
the men do that, but I don't do it. I pay the money for what I want,
and get it where it can be got best.
13,593. Do you run no account at all?-Not much. I sometimes
run an account for a little with Messrs. Harrison when I want
anything,-perhaps in the year, and that is settled at settling time.
13,594. But most of your supplies you get elsewhere-at
Scalloway or Lerwick?-Yes.
13,595. Do all the men in your vessel keep accounts at Harrison &
Son's, and get their supplies there?-Yes.
13,596. You purchase your own lines and hooks for Faroe?-Yes.
A lead of lines for each man will cost about 11s.
13,597. Is that the only fishing expense that you have?-Yes; but
perhaps we may have two leads of lines in one summer.
13,598. Do you always purchase them from the owners?-Yes; or
they are put on board the vessel, and the men take them as they
require them. The master keeps an account of that.
13,599. How do you do on the Iceland voyage for these fishing
supplies?-The men pay hire for their lines on the Iceland voyage.
13,600. Then the lines in that case are at the owners risk?-Yes.
13,601. If they are lost, do the owners bear the loss?-The men
have to pay for them if they lose them, and if they return them they
only pay hire for them.
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, WILLIAM ROBERTSON, recalled.
13,602. You have handed in an agreement for the year 1871 with
the crew of the 'Royal Tar?'-Yes.
13,603. Is that the form that is always used by Mr. Leask in
agreements for the Faroe fishing?-Perhaps a word or two may
vary, but that is the substance of the agreement. It is in this form:
'Royal Tar.'
'We, the undersigned, hereby agree to prosecute the cod and other
fishings ,in the said vessel wherever required by the master or
owner during the fishing season of 1871, that is, from the time we
are requested to join the vessel until the end of August if required,
it being understood that one half of the net proceeds of the fishing
belong to the owner of the vessel, and the other half to be divided
among the crew in the proportions set opposite their respective
names; the owner supplying the crew with 1 lb. of bread per man
per day.' Then follow the men's names and residences, and their
ages, the last ship in which they were employed, their capacity as
master, mate, second mate, sharesman, or half, or three-quarter
sharesman, as the case may be. In the next column there is given
the rate per ton of premium or extra above the share, being 9s. in
this case to the master, 3s. 6d. to the mate, and 1s. to the second
mate. Then follows the rate of score money to each man, being in
this case 6d. throughout. There is also a column for observations,
in which it is noted opposite the names of three men, and as much
as he is worth; how is that fixed?-It is left to the discretion of the
principal men of the vessel.
13,604. Is anything else of importance ever entered in the column
for observations?-If anything occurs, of course it will be entered.
I may mention that the time when the men generally have to join
the ship is about the middle of March. That time is not fixed by
the agreement; it is merely said that they have to join when they
are requested.
13,605. What do you do about an Iceland voyage?-The Iceland
voyage generally commences about the middle of August, after the
Faroe voyage is over. The agreement does not refer to that.
13,606. Do they make a separate agreement for an Iceland voyage,
the men being paid by wages?-Yes.
13,607. I understand you have something to add to your previous
evidence?-Yes. When my examination ceased previously, I think
I was speaking about the work-people, and I have now brought one
of the time-books to show the proportion of money and of goods
received by each. [Produces book.]
13,608. That is a time-book for the work-people employed in 1871
at Sound beach, which is about a mile from Lerwick?-Yes. It
shows the amount of cash paid, the balance, of course, being the
amount of their accounts for the week.
13,609. The first name is M'Gowan Gray?-He is the
superintendent.
13,610. The entry in his case is, Cash 2s., time 6, wages 10s.: what
does that mean?-He has 10s. a week of wages, six days a week,
and 2s. is the cash he has to get.
13,611. The entry in the inner column is made at pay-day, showing
the amount of cash he has to get?-Yes.
13,612. How is the amount of cash ascertained?-We have a
ledger account with each individual, which is settled every week,
but perhaps it may not be balanced. We do not generally balance
until the end of the year, but we square accounts before.
13,613. Is the account squared to ascertain the amount of cash
payable?-Yes, the amount of cash due to the individual.
13,614. Is that not a sufficient balance for the whole?-I daresay it
comes to the same thing as a sufficient balance, only the account is
not ruled off.
13,615. Is it done in pencil?-It is done in ink, but it is not ruled
off in lines; it is not added up.
13,616. But there is an addition made in the inner column in ink:
how is that done?-It is just like any ordinary account, with
double money columns. The wages are credited; then the goods
stand against them, and the balance is charged, so that the one
squares the other.
13,617. Is that done each week?-Yes.
13,618. Are the balances entered here always paid in cash?-
Always.
13,619. Are they never allowed to lie?-Not with the work-people.
13,620. Is the week ending 2d Sept. 1871, of which this-
[showing]-is the account, a fair average of a [Page 339] week
throughout the season?-I think it will be about a fair average.
13,621. It shows £5, 17s. 5d. as the total amount of wages earned;
and of that, £3, 19s. 7d. was paid in cash at the end of the week,
the rest having been taken out in the course of the week in
goods?-Yes, principally in provisions.
13,622. I see that in one case it had been altogether taken out in
goods, and there was no cash due?-Yes, but in others you will
find that there has been nothing taken out, and that the whole was
paid in cash.
13,623. I see that in six cases cash has been paid in full out of
twenty-seven people employed altogether?-Yes.
13,624. I fancy that in that week rather more has been paid in cash
than the average, because in the following week £2, 9s. 2d. was
due, and £1, 1s. 6d. was paid in cash. In another week £4, 12s. 2d.
was payable, and £1, 11s. 10d. was paid in cash. In another week
£4, 6s. 9d. was payable, and £1, 4s. 5d. was paid in cash, there
being twenty-five persons employed in that week. Then, in the last
week which appears in the book £3, 14s. 7d. was payable, and £1,
2s. 7d. was paid in cash, there being twenty-five persons employed
then also?-Yes; people, of course, require the same amount of
provisions, whether they earn much or little, the amount of their
balance in cash being less where the work has been less.
13,625. In the Faroe fishing formerly-I am not speaking of Mr.
Leask's business only, but of your general knowledge of the
country-was it the case that tenants were held under an
obligation to fish for particular persons, just as they now are
in some places in the ling fishing?-I am not aware of any
tenants having been compelled or bound to fish to their proprietor
in the Faroe fishing, either now or formerly.
13,626. When was the Faroe fishing introduced into Shetland?-I
think about 1851 or 1852.
13,627. Have you known cases in which proprietors or tacksmen
attempted to get their ships manned from their estates, not by
compulsion, but by persuasion or influence?-I am not aware of
any compulsion having been used at all.
13,628. When the Faroe fishing was first introduced, was it not the
case that a merchant's smacks were manned for the most part from
lands of which he was proprietor or tacksman?-I believe that is
quite true, because when a merchant had tenants he invariably got
the preference from them; but they were not bound to go to the
fishing for him.
13,629. There was not such a demand for places on board Faroe
vessels at that time as there is now?-Nothing like it.
13,630. Now the service has become more popular?-Yes; and the
number of the ships has increased considerably, so that the number
of men required is far greater.
13,631. Is there always an ample supply of men for that fishing?-
Not always.
13,632. When men fall short, what means do you adopt to increase
the supply? Have you to canvas for men, or do you raise your
terms, or what is done?-There is very little difference in the
terms. Men have been very scarce this season in consequence of
the bad fishing last year, but we have not altered the terms. I
remember one year we had to offer wages as an inducement to the
men to ship. In 1861 there was a bad fishing, and in 1862 we had
to guarantee them £1, 10s. a month of wages; but I don't think
fishermen in general like wages.
13,633. Have you ever had recourse to any other means except
persuasion to fill up your vessels not except persuasion; but we
have not been at a great loss for men. We have generally had as
many as we required, until this season. I don't think we will be
able to get as many as we require this season, because of the bad
fishing last year.
13,634. I suppose the great bulk of the business in Mr. Leask's
shop passes through accounts with fishermen and others?-Yes,
the great bulk of it.
13,635. When a man pays in cash for the goods he buys, does he
get a discount?-No. We price the goods at the very lowest at the
commencement, and we don't alter the prices.
13,636. There are not two prices, according as the man pays in
cash or takes it out in his account?-No, it is all the same price.
13,637. Then a man has no advantage in paying cash?-None
whatever.
13,638. And he is not expected to pay in cash?-Not if he be
employed by Mr. Leask. Of course we sell a great quantity of
goods for cash to persons whom we don't employ, both in the
provision shop and also in the draper.
13,639. In addition to the fish which are delivered in a wet state at
your stations, do you purchase dry fish?-Mr. Leask has been in
the habit of purchasing ling for a firm in Dublin for many years.
He also buys cod in a dry state occasionally.
13,640. Last year, I understand, you bought all the Greenbank
fish?-Yes, all the Greenbank ling, not the other.
13,641. And also some from Mossbank?-Yes.
13,642. Did you also buy dry fish from Thomas Williamson,
Seafield?-Yes.
13,643. Do you supply Pole, Hoseason, & Co. with goods as
wholesale merchants?-No.
13,644. Then these fish would be settled for by cash or bills?-
Yes; by cash at three months from the date of shipment.
13,645. Were these ling paid for at the current price-Yes, at £23
per ton, free on board at Mossbank or Cullivoe, the port of
shipment.
13,646. The men, I understand, are paid according to the current
price of dry fish at the end of the season?-Yes. They get all the
advantage that the curer can afford to give them. The price is not
fixed at the commencement, and I think it is much better not.
13,647. What was the current price at the end of last season?-
£23.
13,648. Is that calculated to afford 8s. per cwt. for green fish?-
Yes. In the previous year the price was, I think, £21 for dry fish,
and the price allowed for green fish was 7s. 3d. for ling. Of course
tusk and cod were much less.
13,649. How would a transaction such as you have mentioned be
taken into account in ascertaining the current price at the end of
the season? Would you stand in the position towards the curers of
a wholesale purchaser?-Exactly.
13,650. Do you think a number of small sales in the course of a
season may be able to get a higher price than a large curer who
sells all in a lump all the end of the year?-At rare times he may
sell a small parcel for a larger price; but generally, I think, the
small curers get a less price than we do at the end of the season.
13,651. Would you be surprised to hear that some small curers
were able to pay their fishermen much higher prices for ling and
all other fish than the larger curers, and that they have done so, in
point of fact, for some years back?-Such a thing is quite possible.
They may have got more for their fish when dry.
13,652. How would you account for that?-I cannot account for it;
it may have happened by accident.
13,653. Do they require less remuneration for their trouble?-No.
13,654. Or does selling in small parcels enable them to get a
higher price?-Sometimes it may.
13,655. Do you think they may sell to retail dealers at once, and
thus get the advantage of the retail price?-Perhaps they may sell
a small parcel at once at a higher price; but, as a rule, I don't think
they do. I think a large parcel generally sells best.
13,656. Is not a large parcel sold to parties who themselves supply
retail dealers?-Yes.
13,657. But a small dealer, by taking a little more trouble, may
possibly sell direct to the retail merchant himself, so that he
secures his profit without the intervention of another dealer?-He
may.
[Page 340]
13,658. Is that the way in, which you account for him getting a
higher price?-That is the only way in which I can account for it.
13,659. The small curers get not only the curer's profit, but
they also get the wholesale fish-dealer's profit at times, by selling
direct to the retail dealer. Do you think that is a reasonable
explanation of the matter?-I think so. It is the only way in which
I can account for it, because I know that the large curers pay the
utmost they can afford to the men.
13,660. Do you supply Thomas Williamson, Seafield, with
goods?-Yes.
13,661. Are these set in the account against the fish which you buy
from him?-Yes.
13,662. And that account is settled from time to time?-Yes.
13,663. Is that the only security which Mr. Leask has for his
supplies to Williamson?-Yes; in fact he has no security at all
until he gets the fish.
13,664. I suppose Mr. Williamson's is a case of man starting
business without much capital?-I think so.
13,665. Is Mr. Leask his security with the Commercial Bank?-I
know that he became answerable either for an account or for the
value of boats, or perhaps for both; but I could not say what he
may have done with regard to the Commercial Bank.
13,666. Are you aware that Williamson obtained letter from Mrs.
Budge's agent requiring the fishermen on Seafield to fish for
him?-I am not aware of that; I never heard of it before.
13,667. You showed me before the correspondence which had
taken place between Mr. Leask and Mr. William Jack Williamson.
In a letter dated 7th December 1869 Mr. Leask stated that he had
directed the fishermen to fish to him (that is, Williamson), and that
Williamson had become liable to him (Mr. Leask) for the rents as
James Johnston had done: had he done so?-I suppose Mr. Leask
simply recommended them to fish for Williamson; he did not
direct them.
13,668. But the word used in the letter is 'directed?'-That simply
means recommended. Mr. Leask never directed them to fish for
Williamson, or to fish at all. They might have gone to the ends of
the earth, to the south, or elsewhere, for anything he cared; but
when they did fish, I suppose he wished them to fish for
Williamson.
13,669. Probably that recommendation would be taken into
account in fixing the rent to be paid for Williamson's premises
at Ulsta?-It was not. The rent has never been reduced on
account of that.
13,670. But it would not be reduced; it would rather be raised,
because that would increase the value?-There was no such
understanding at all. I deny most positively that Williamson's
rent was increased in consequence of the tenants being allowed to
fish for him.
13,671. Was Williamson on the property when Mr. Leask
bought it?-Yes. Mr. Leask has been at very great expense on
Williamson's property, repairing houses, and one thing and
another, and very likely he would have raised the rent in
consequence of that. I think he paid about £20 one year for
improvements, and there were other improvements carried
through which cost a great deal of money; and I consider that
Mr. Leask was entitled to a percentage upon that.
13,672. Did he get a rise of rent?-I don't know that he did. I am
only saying that if he did get it he was entitled to it.
13,673. But is it not reasonable to suppose that man can pay a
higher rent for a piece of ground if the fishermen in the district are
under an obligation to deliver their fish to him?-He ought
certainly to pay more for a monopoly; there is no doubt about that.
13,674. Do you not know whether the rent was altered after Mr.
Leask bought the property?-I believe the rents in general were
raised a little,-not the whole of them, but a great many of
them,-because Mr. Leask has been at a great deal of expense in
building new houses, and otherwise.
13,675. Have you any doubt at all that the fact that the fishermen
were fishing for Mr. Williamson and Mr. Johnston was taken into
account in fixing the amount of their rents?-It had nothing
whatever to do with the fixing of the rents.
13,676. Was it merely as a favour to the merchant who occupied
the premises that the tenants were directed to fish to him?-Quite
so. It was merely a favour to recommend the tenants to fish for
him.
13,677. That was no favour to the fishermen, however?-I don't
think it was, but it did them no injustice, because I have no doubt
Williamson would have paid them the same price as other people.
13,678. Did Williamson become liable to Mr. Leask then for the
rents of the fishermen?-No, never. Williamson never became
liable for anything but the balance in his hands.
13,679. Mr. Leask's letter states that he had directed the fishermen
to fish to him, and that Williamson had become liable to him for
the rents, and he complains also that Williamson had not fulfilled
that obligation: had he not become liable?-He may have talked
about doing so, but he never did so.
13,680. Did he promise to become liable?-He may have
promised to become liable, but to the best of my knowledge,
he never did so.
13,681. Is it not a very usual, indeed almost a universal,
arrangement in Shetland, that some of the fishermen's rents
are paid to the proprietor by the fish-merchant to whom his
tenants fish?-Yes; I believe that is quite common.
13,682. Is it not very often done by debiting the fishermen with
the amount of the rent in the fish-merchant's books, and the
fish-merchant handing a cheque to the proprietor for the slump
sum of the rents due by his fishermen?-Yes, that is quite
common.
13,683. Is it not almost universal?-I believe it is, but in this case
it was not done. Williamson simply paid the balance in his hands
which was due to the fishermen. When the balance could not pay
for the rent, of course Williamson did not make it up.
13,684. He did not pay any rents for fishermen who were not able
to pay for themselves?-No.
13,685. But James Johnston had done so, and fulfilled his
obligation?-In one or two cases, I believe, Johnston did so.
I could not even say that he has done that, but I think there was
some understanding of that sort.
13,686. In that letter of December 1869 to Williamson, Mr. Leask
refers to Johnston as having fulfilled the stipulation on that point
which Williamson had failed to do. I suppose you have no reason
to doubt that that statement is correct?-None; only I was not
aware of it. I did not pay any attention to that part of the letter.
13,687. Is it the practice for Mr. Leask to pay to the proprietors the
rents of a number of fishermen who have accounts with him?-
No; he pays no rents for the men whatever.
13,688. That practice does not exist in connection with the Faroe
fishermen?-No. It is only in the home fishing, so far as I know,
that that is done.
13,689. Are the rents of any of the men employed in the Faroe
fishing by Mr. Leask paid through him to the proprietors?-If an
individual gave an order on Mr. Leask in favour of the proprietor,
of course it would be paid if the fisherman had funds in Mr.
Leask's hands to meet it.
13,690. But not otherwise?-Not otherwise. No guarantee is
given.
13,691 Are such orders frequently given?-Frequently; at least
they are not uncommon.
13,692. A fisherman sometimes, at or before settlement, gives an
order on the shipowner in favour of the proprietor?-Yes.
13,693. And you may perhaps have a number of such orders from
the tenants of a particular proprietor?-We have some, but very
few.
13,694. When a number of such rents are payable to single
proprietor, do you give him one cheque for the whole?-I don't
remember any order of that kind being given, except one.
[Page 341]
13,695. I believe you wish to make some additional statement
with regard to the Greenland whale fishery?-Yes. With your
permission I would again refer shortly to Mr. Hamilton's report,
in case there is anything in it which I left uncorrected when I was
previously examined. I think I showed last day that crews have
been discharged within about one month or less from the date of
their being landed; and I referred to the crew of the 'Esquimaux'
in May 1870, and to the crew of the 'Polynia' from Davis Straits in
November 1871. The former crew contained the latter, I think, 19
men, who were discharged within less than a month.
13,696. Have you known any other cases in which the crews were
discharged as rapidly?-I refer to the shipping master of the port
for other cases. I have no doubt there are plenty more.
13,697. Are there any others within your own knowledge?-I
don't remember any, but I have no doubt there are others. I
admitted that in some cases seamen have taken an unreasonable
length of time before coming to be discharged; but I explained
that that was not the fault of the agents, but of the men themselves.
Then I deny that the truck system in an open or disguised form
prevails in Shetland to an extent which is unknown in any
other part of the United Kingdom. I have no proof to offer in
contradiction of that statement; I simply deny it, and I don't
believe it.
13,698. What is the population of Shetland?-About 30,000.
13,699. Of these, how many do you suppose consist of fishermen
and their families?-I should say that perhaps about three-fourths
of them are fishermen and seamen, and their families.
13,700. I suppose the seamen are mostly the younger members of
the families?-Yes.
13,701. Is it not the case that almost every fisherman has an
account with the merchant to whom he sells his fish?-Yes;
but I don't consider that to be truck at all.
13,702. That account is settled at the end of the year, part of the
value of the man's fish being taken out supplies of goods, and the
balance being paid in cash, if any balance is due?-Yes. He
simply has an account, in the same way that all the retail
merchants in Shetland and everywhere else have to deal with
wholesale merchants, and have to pay them.
13,703. Do you suppose Mr. Hamilton meant anything else than
that by saying that the truck system prevailed in Shetland?-I am
not bound to know what he meant, but I deny his statement.
13,704. I presume he merely intended to state that a great part of
the earnings of every fisherman, as well as of some other people
in Shetland, were really settled by taking out goods from the
employers. Do you suppose he meant anything else than that?-I
am afraid he did. I am afraid he meant to convey the idea that the
men got nothing but goods when they should have got money.
13,705. Is it not the case that many of them do get nothing but
goods?-That is their own fault.
13,706. Still it may be the fact although it is their own fault?-It
may be the fact, because the men earn very little, and they require
supplies of provisions and clothing; and no person would give
them such supplies unless the person who employs them. But I
don't think that is truck, in the common meaning of the word.
13,707. Then the difference between you is rather a dispute about
the meaning of the word truck than as to the actual state of matters
in Shetland?-I would not even admit that. I don't think there is
any room for complaint about the state of matters in Shetland, as a
rule.
13,708. I suppose you mean that the fishermen have a certain
advantage by getting advances of goods?-Of course they have.
13,709. But you do not mean to deny the fact that they do get such
advances when they require them?-Of course I don't deny that;
but the shipowner or curer runs a great risk in advancing goods on
the security of fish which have to be caught. It is a very good thing
in a good season, but in a bad season he may come rather short.
13,710. On the other hand, he does not pay for the fish that are
caught until six or seven months afterwards?-He does not realize
them until then. None of the fish-curers get one penny for their
fish until about the end of December, except perhaps for a very
small parcel which they may send to a retail dealer in the south.
13,711. That may be quite true; but is any employer of labour in a
better position?-Yes.
13,712. A farmer, for instance, pays his labourers weekly or
fortnightly, as the case may be, and he very often does not realize
his crops until many months afterwards?-That is true; but he is
selling his butter and milk and cattle.
13,713. Still it does not follow that he is paid for them at the
time?-Cattle, I think, are generally paid for in cash.
13,714. But there are other producers, such as manufacturers, who
are only paid by long-dated bills, generally at three months?-Yes;
but here the merchant does not get his return until the end of
twelve months. The fish-merchant or curer begins to advance in
the beginning of January, and he continues to advance until the
end of December, without getting any money back; so that he lies
out of his money for twelve months. He neither gets money from
the party to whom he advances the goods, nor from the party to
whom he sells his fish.
13,715. Do you think that is the main justification for the long
settlements which are made with the men?-Of course it is.
13,716. Is it not possible for a fish-curer beginning business on a
small scale, to carry on his business without any capital at all, or
almost without capital?-If he gets assistance he may, but it is not
possible to do it without assistance. No one can carry on business
to any extent without capital.
13,717. But he requires only a limited capital, does he not?-He
requires a good deal of capital, but it depends entirely upon the
extent of his business.
13,718. He has no wages to pay until about the time when he
realizes the sales for the year?-But he has goods to supply or
money to advance.
13,719. But he may have a certain amount of goods which may be
got at three or six months' credit, according to arrangement?-
Yes.
13,720. For instance, Mr. Thomas Williamson, at Seafield, does
not pay for his goods, I presume, until his fish are sold to Mr.
Leask?-That is an exceptional case. If Mr. Leask or Mr. Adie, or
any other person, chooses to accommodate such a person as Mr.
Williamson, they may do so; but that is not the rule, by any means.
13,721. It is an exceptional case in this respect, that the fish-curer
there has a very small capital, and that he has obtained goods on
credit?-Yes.
13,722. Still it illustrates the possibility of doing these things
under the system which prevails?-Yes, I may mention that the
merchants in Lerwick are not so hard as merchants in the south, in
requiring that money must be paid at the end of three or four
months. A merchant in Lerwick may allow his account to run on
for twelve months, because that is the custom of the country.
13,723. Is that the only other point in Mr. Hamilton's report which
you wish to refer to?-No. I deny that almost every fisherman in
the island is in debt, and that his wife and other members of his
family are also in debt.
13,724. How do you know that?-I would refer you to the
bank-books, particularly to those of the Union Bank, and also
those of the Commercial and National Banks, and of the Post
Office Savings Bank, and the Seamen's Savings Bank.
13,725. Are these all the banks in Shetland?-Yes.
13,726. Are you aware that men who take advances in goods and
cash from you as their employer frequently have considerable
sums in bank?-Yes. I can point to a home fisherman, not a
tenant of Mr. [Page 342] Leask's, who has accumulated between
£100 and £200 within the last few years.
13,727. Does he take large advances?-I don't know what he
takes; he does not deal with Mr. Leask at all. I can also point to
a man in the Greenland trade, who within the last six years has
saved up, I think, about £130 or £140.
13,728. Do these men obtain advances from their employers in the
same way as other men?-Yes; they have accounts in the same
way.
13,729. But they have a large balance at the end of the year;
probably they don't allow their accounts to exceed their
earnings?-Quite so.
13,730. You don't know about the debts which stand in the books
of other merchants?-No.
13,731. So that you really cannot say to what extent fishermen are
in debt to merchants other than Mr. Leask?-I cannot say to what
extent they are in debt to other merchants; but I don't believe they
are in debt to any great extent. Part of them may be in debt to
some extent, but not the majority. The debtors must be a minority
among the men.
13,732. What is the next point in the report to which you wish to
refer?-I have already proved that the average quantity of ground
on the farms of Mr. Leask's estates in Sound and Whiteness is
about 12 acres, and not 3 or 4 acres, as Mr. Hamilton alleges, and I
produce the rent rolls and plans to show that the rent is under 10s.
an acre. In addition to that, in Sound and Whiteness the tenants
have the free use of extensive scattald for their sheep and cattle.
13,733. Are the farms divided there?-Yes, they are all divided.
In Yell the tenants have an unlimited amount of sheep pasturage,
for which they pay 6d. per head per annum.
13,734. Still these estates of Mr. Leask's only form a small portion
of the land in Shetland?-Yes; but I believe they may be taken as a
fair criterion for the rest.
13,735. Then you would say that this would have been a fair
statement if it had run thus: 'These fishermen for the most part
also rent small farms of about 10 to 12 acres, paying a rent of
about £6 a year?'-Yes; from £5 to £6 a year on the average. The
rents range from perhaps £3 to £12, but on an average they may be
taken as from £5 to £6. Then I admit that the direct profit from the
shipping agency or the commission allowed to the agents is not a
sufficient remuneration for the trouble the agents have and the
work they have to perform. I also admit that they do make some
profit from their customers; and also that many of the men
engaged are utterly unable, without assistance of the agents, to
provide themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage;
but I explain that in consequence of that the agent is very often
sacrificed in the event of a bad voyage, because then a number of
the young hands in the Greenland trade are always in debt.
13,736. Is it within your experience that a much smaller number
of green hands is now employed in the Greenland fishery than
formerly?-Yes, the number is much smaller than it used to be.
13,737. Is that in consequence of the reluctance of the agents to
engage green hands who require an outfit?-Yes. The agents do
not wish to give £5 or £6 of an advance for outfit to young hands
who have only 30s. to get.
13,738. Therefore they single out more experienced hands, who
get larger wages and require no outfit?-Yes, that is my
experience.
13,739. Has that tendency been very strongly exhibited within the
last few years?-It has been very strongly exhibited of late.
13,740. The agents have made a great effort to exclude young
hands, and to obtain experienced men?-Yes, and that admittedly
in consequence of the risk attending the advances to the young
hands.
13,741. Have the masters of the ships concurred in that course of
conduct?-They generally do so. So far as the sealing voyage is
concerned, they generally prefer to have experienced hands, but in
the whaling voyage they may have about one-fifth of young hands.
13,742. Have they complained about the reduction in the number
of young hands engaged for these voyages?-I cannot say that they
have.
13,743. Are the gentlemen here who act as agents authorized in
any way to engage men for ships?-The masters of the ships are
invariably present when the men are engaged; indeed they engage
the men themselves.
13,744. Then no engagement is made by the agents?-Very
seldom, unless in presence of the master.
13,745. Is that in order to comply with the 147th section of the
Merchant Shipping Act?-No; it is because the masters prefer to
see the men they engage. Two or three years ago, I think in 1869,
we engaged about sixty men and sent them to Dundee; but the
masters did not like that plan, and preferred to see the men
themselves.
13,746. Are you aware that the 147th section of the Merchant
Shipping Act provides, that 'if any unauthorized person engages
or supplies any mate, seaman, midshipman, or apprentice, to be
entered on board any ship in the United Kingdom, he will be liable
to be prosecuted; and if convicted, to a penalty of £20 for each
offence?' I was not aware of that.
13,747. It is also provided, that 'the only persons authorized to
engage or supply mates, seamen, midshipmen, and apprentices,
are the following: owner, the master, or the mate of the ship, or
some person who is the bona fide servant and in the constant
employ of the owner; the superintendent of a Government
Mercantile Marine Office, or an agent licensed by the Board of
Trade?'-I may mention that Mr. Leask is part owner of most of
the vessels for which he acts as agent; indeed of all except one.
13,748. Therefore he would not fall within that clause as you read
it?-No; he would not come within that.
13,749. But you say that, in point of fact, the practice here is, that
the seamen are engaged by the master of the ship?-They are
virtually engaged by the master.
13,750. And what takes place between the men and the agent
before that engagement, is merely of the nature of preliminary
negotiations?-Quite so; they are all engaged in presence of the
shipping master and the master of the vessel, or at least legally
engaged. That is the only binding engagement which is made with
them; and it is made in presence of the shipping master and the
master of the vessel. It frequently happens that we may arrange in
Mr. Leask's office with men to go in the ship, and they fail to
appear at the Shipping Office; so that the agreement in the office
of the agent is not at all binding.
13,751. Do you remember any occasion of the master of a ship
objecting to take any man whom you had recommended to him?-
I cannot say that I remember that, but it may have occurred. We
generally endeavour to get good men; but when men are scarce,
we may have been forced to take what men we could get, and
these may not have pleased the master altogether.
13,752. Do you remember any occasion on which the master of a
ship objected to take the men whom you wished him to take, and
suggested that you were asking him to take men who had accounts
with you in preference to others?-I don't remember of that; it
may have occurred, but I don't think so. I have known us
sometimes trying to persuade a master to take a young lad, out
of charity; and sometimes he would do so, against his own
inclination.
13,753. Mr. Hamilton says, 'It is quite common for allotments of
wages to be made out in favour of the agents; or, in other words,
for the agent to undertake to pay himself part of the seaman's
wages.' Is that so?-I already explained that we never gave
allotments.
13,754. He also says, 'Even those men who are able to pay for
their own outfit, and who might be able to obtain it at a cheaper
rate from some other shopkeeper, are practically debarred from
doing so?'-I deny that most emphatically.
[Page 343]
13,755. Do you say that a man who obtains an engagement
through Mr. Leask or you is quite at liberty to go to any other
shopkeeper and obtain his outfit from him?-Yes; he can go
wherever he pleases. Every man gets his advance note from the
shipping master, or at least in his presence, when he engages.
13,756. Have you never invited any of these men to obtain their
outfit at your shop?-We never invited them, but plenty of them
have done it.
13,757. Have none of Mr. Leask's people invited them?-No, we
never invited them; but they mostly all take a certain amount of
goods from us, for all that.
13,758. Do the preliminary negotiations to which you refer
generally take place within Mr. Leask's premises?-Yes; but
sometimes I have seen it done on board ship.
13,759. Are the same men generally engaged by you for a
succession of years, or do they change from one agent to
another?-It is not very common for masters to change their
men. The men generally stick to one master, and a great number
of them stick to one agent; but it is quite common for them to
change agents. Mr. Hamilton also says, 'Any man who carried his
custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him
would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that
particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the
news of his contumacy would soon spread.' I deny that entirely.
13,760. I think you told me in your previous examination that no
lists were now exchanged between agents?-It was the custom at
one time to exchange lists of balances due by seamen, but it is not
done now.
13,761. How long is it since that custom ceased?-I have seen
very little of it for a number of years.
13,762. Is it half a dozen years ago since it was given up?-Fully
that.
13,763. Have you known any case of a man being refused
employment in consequence of dealing with another agent for
his outfit?-Never. We were always anxious to get hold of good
seamen, whether they dealt with us or not.
13,764. Has that never occurred in the case of middling seaman?-
No; even then we never objected to take any seaman in
consequence of him going elsewhere with his custom.
13,765. Has there been a large supply of seamen during the last
few years for the Greenland trade?-They have been about equal
to the demand, certainly not more. I think when the ships were all
manned last year, the men were done. There may have been few
boys left, but the men were done when the ships were done,
13,766. Have you known any case of a man obtaining an
engagement through you and getting his outfit from another
shop?-I have no doubt there are plenty of cases of that kind,
but I could not point to any particular case.
13,767. Do you remember of any such case occurring?-I cannot
say that I remember; but I know that there are plenty of our men
who buy very little, perhaps only a few shillings' worth, from us
when they go.
13,768. But do you know any case of a man in want of an outfit,
engaging with you and getting that outfit from another
employer?-I cannot point to any such case.
13,769. The cases which you have in your mind, in which the men
have bought very little from you, may be the cases of men who
have been for many years at the fishing?-Yes, and who did not
require an outfit.
13,770. What was the state of the supply and demand in 1870?-I
think it was very much the same as in 1871: the supply was just
about equal to the demand, but in 1867 the demand was greater
than the supply. In March of that year the 'Jan Mayen' had to
leave here three or four men short of her complement. In 1868 I
think the supply was about equal to the demand, and also in 1869.
In the summer of 1869, after the month of May, the supply was
fully greater than the demand.
13,771. Were there few vessels going to the whaling that year?-
Yes. In May there were some vessels here engaging men, but we
had more men that year than ships.
13,772. How did you select your men that year?-The captain
selected there.
13,773. Had you no voice in their selection?-I was not present
when they were engaged. Mr. Leask and Mr. Andrew Jamieson
were present. I refer to the 'Camperdown' and 'Polynia' in May
1869.
13,774. Were these your only whaling vessels that year?-We had
more; but I think we had only these two in at that time when the
men were so plentiful. With regard to Mr. Hamilton's report,
again, I admit there is no time fixed for settlement, but I have
already explained that we cannot compel the men to come until
they like. I also deny that the men have to give back all the money
that they receive. I have shown that we paid £1120, 12s. 3d. to the
crew of the 'Camperdown' in 1865.
13,775. Mr. Hamilton does not say that the men had to give back
all the money that they received. What he says is, 'The man has
no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once, to whom he
is indebted in an equal or greater amount.' That is only that the
men who are in debt to the agent in an equal or greater amount
have to hand back the money to him?-The idea that is conveyed
is, that every man is in that position.
13,776. Do you deny Mr. Hamilton's statement, that 'when the
whalers return after a short and successful voyage, it is, under this
system, manifestly to the agent's interest that the Shetland portion
of the crew should not be settled at once?'-Yes, I deny that. I say
that no man has to ask twice to be settled with.
13,777. That is not the question. Is it to the agent's interest that
the settlement should take place at once or not?-If we wish to
have as little trouble as possible, it is our interest to settle with the
men at once; but if an agent wishes to retain the men's money in
his hands for a month or so, it may be a little to his interest then to
delay the settlement.
13,778. May there not be a good deal of money his hands
belonging to the men?-There may.
13,779. It is quite a different question whether the agent acts as
his interest dictates, but still it is to his interest in such a case to
delay the settlement for some time?-I admit that it may be to
his interest to retain the money, but I deny that he delays the
settlement on that account.
13,780. He may have an interest to retain the money, and it may
also happen that a certain amount of supplies is being taken out by
the men before they are settled with?-It is very seldom that a man
buys anything after he comes home.
13,781. But even although that has not occurred in your business,
it is quite possible that in other businesses, or in the hands of an
unscrupulous agent-I don't suppose there are any such here,-the
settlement may be protracted in order that the agent may retain the
money in his hands, and be running up an account against the men
at the same time?-I say that the shipping agents in Lerwick are
all highly respectable men.
13,782. That is assumed in my question; but I am putting the case
of another kind of men engaging in the business. I suppose you
can conceive such a case?-Such a case is possible. Shetland is
not exempt from bad men.
13,783. In such a case, might not the settlement be protracted for
such reasons?-I don't think it could, because, if the settlement is
unduly protracted, the man has nothing to do but apply to the
shipping master and complain.
13,784. Still that would require an application to the shipping
master in order to get it put right?-Yes.
13,785. Do you deny this statement of Mr. Hamilton's: 'I need
hardly point out that it is clearly most important, in the interests of
the man, that he should not merely nominally but actually receive
his [Page 344] wages in cash, and be able to spend them as he
likes?'-That is common sense. There can be no doubt about that.
Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'But while the men employed are not free
agents,'-I deny that,-'however fair an employer may desire to
be, he cannot treat them as if they were; and if, on the other hand,
the employer wants to make all he can out of those he employs,
and to take every advantage of their dependent position, he has
unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the result of
their labour,'-I deny that,-'leaving to them only so much as is
absolutely necessary to prevent them from starving.' I deny that
he has the opportunity of doing that.
13,786. You will observe that it is not alleged that any agent in
Lerwick does so. All the allegation which Mr. Hamilton makes
is that the opportunity exists?-I deny that there is such an
opportunity, because Shetland men in general are very intelligent.
They are not at all what they have been represented to be. They
are a very sharp, acute, intelligent lot of people, and they are
perfectly able to take care, and do take very good care, to protect
themselves, and to make sure that their accounts are just. I further
think they are very provident, as can be proved by the amount of
deposits in the banks. I don't think they are an extravagant people
at all. In my opinion they are a very careful, active, energetic,
intelligent people, as a rule, much more so than will be found
among the same class of people in other parts of the United
Kingdom.
13,787. Do you think it is a sign of independence and intelligence,
and care in money matters, that fishermen and seamen should
leave all these matters in the hands of merchants and landlords?-
They don't always do that.
13,788. In the majority of cases they pay their rents through their
fish-merchant, and many of their accounts are paid by him?-That
must be so, because they have no other means of doing it.
13,789. Most workmen in other parts of the country have their
wages in their own hands every fortnight or every month, and can
disburse them at their own pleasure; whereas in Shetland the
universal practice is for the fisherman to run an account with the
fish-merchant to whom he delivers his fish, and the fish-merchant
transacts all his money matters for him. Do you think that is a
proof of their intelligence and independence?-The man has
merely a current account as he would have with a banker. He gets
money, or anything he likes, if he wishes to pay an account. I
suppose the fish-merchant, if he has money in his hands, would
give it to him; but to settle with the fishermen every week or every
fortnight is utterly impossible in Shetland.
13,790. Why?-Because the fishermen are in a sort of partnership
with their employers. For instance, in the Faroe fishing it is a joint
speculation betwixt the men and the owner. The men supply their
time and labour, and the owner supplies the vessel and other
things, and the men cannot get their share of the proceeds until the
fish are dried and sold. It is quite impossible for the fish-merchant
to settle with them every week or every fortnight unless they have
been paid by wages. Of course, if they were paid by wages, the
curer could settle at short intervals with the men, or with some one
on their behalf when they were away.
13,791. Is it not the fact that in almost every case the fishermen
depend for the accuracy of their accounts upon the fish-curer?-
No, they all have a good check upon their accounts. They have
them carefully read over, and every item criticised; and if they
don't remember exactly about a particular article, they will not
settle for it until they do remember.
13,792. You are now speaking of the Faroe fishing and the
Greenland fishing, of which you have had experience?-Yes.
13,793. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I should wish to
refer to certain passages in the previous evidence given before the
Commission in Edinburgh. In question 44,207 Mr. Smith is asked,
'Is it a fact, that very little money passes between the proprietor
and the fishermen on these occasions?' [that is, at settlement], and
he replies, 'It is the fact.' I say that it is not a fact, and I have
proved already that the men do get money. At Ulsta the amount
earned was £86, and the cash paid was £72.
13,794. Of course you are only speaking now of what comes under
your own observation in Mr. Leask's business?-That is all. Then
in question 44,219 Mr. Smith is asked, 'As a rule, are these
fishermen in their debt?' and he replies, 'I think very often they
are.' Now I say they are not in debt. The balances at the end of
the year are generally in their favour. Then, in question 44,225,
referring to the payment of the men employed at Greenland, Mr.
Smith is asked, 'Are the wages handed over to the agents?' and he
replies, 'The fishermen have the right of insisting that their wages
should be paid at the Custom House in terms of the articles, but
that is very extensively evaded.' I deny that.
13,795. Have attempts never been made to evade that rule about
paying wages at the Custom House?-I don't think so. There is no
chance of evading it:
13,796. Do you say that no attempt has been made to make
deductions other than those allowed by the statute at the time
when the wages were paid at the Custom House?-I say that,
during the first year or two, settlements were made in the Shipping
Office of the agents' accounts as well as of the men's accounts.
13,797 Was not that an evasion of the Merchant Shipping Act?-I
cannot say as to that.
13,798. When is the last payment of oil-money made?-It is not
always at the same time. Sometimes it is in November, and
sometimes in December.
13,799. Where is it paid?-At one time it used to be made in the
Shipping Office also, but now it is invariably in the agent's office.
13,800. Is not that an evasion of the Merchant Shipping Act?-I
don't think so. It is an arrangement between the parties. Mr.
Smith further says, that what he calls the evasion of the Act is as
much at the wish of the fishermen as at the wish of the proprietor.
That conveys the idea that the Greenland men are generally tenants
of the agent, but I may say that in the 'Camperdown' crew in 1865
only one man was tenant of Mr. Leask. In question 44,243 Mr.
Smith is asked, 'Confining ourselves to the whalers, is there any
reason why the settlement should be so long delayed?' and he
replies, 'I see none, except to save the merchants trouble.' I deny
that; and I say that it gives the merchants more labour and trouble
to be going up to the Shipping Office so often.
13,801. In the following answer Mr. Smith says the fisherman has
the power to insist on the settlement taking place at the Custom
House if he chooses. Have you known any cases where they have
insisted on that?-They don't require to insist. So far as we are
concerned, they never have to ask twice to be settled with.
13,802. Had you any applications from Shetland men before 1867
to have such settlements at the Custom House?-I cannot say that
I remember any. The custom then was to pay the men as soon as
we got the remittance from the owner, which was generally about
a month after the ship landed her crew. No doubt, if a man had
come before then wishing for settlement, we would have refused
to settle with him if we had not got the remittance. That, however,
was previous to 1867.
13,803. If a man insisted on getting payment and going to the
Custom House then, what would have taken place?-The Custom
House did not interfere then at all.
13,804. Then there was no case before 1867 or 1868 of a seaman
asking you to go and settle in presence of the superintendent?-
No.
13,805. And such settlements were never made presence of the
superintendent?-No, except in 1854 and 1855, and I explained
why we settled there then.
13,806. But from 1854 or 1855 down to the issuing [Page 344] of
the notice in February 1868, there was no instance of the
settlement being made before the superintendent?-None, to
my knowledge.
13,807. The accounts during that time were settled invariably in
the agent's office, in the same way and on the same principle as
fishermen's accounts?-Yes. Then, in answer to question 44,247,
Mr. Smith says he considers the system of barter to be hurtful to
the independence of the people very much. I deny that the people
are not independent. I consider them to be as independent as any
people in the kingdom. Mr. Smith also says, 'They don't know the
value of money, and they don't know how to eke it out, or make it
last. They are very improvident in that way, and a men's energies
are entirely destroyed.' I maintain that the Shetland people know
very well the value of money, and they also know how to eke it out
and make the most of it. I also say they are not improvident or
extravagant, but the reverse.
13,808. Do you think a man who is deeply in debt fishes as well
as a man who is not in debt?-It is an exception when a man is
deeply in debt: but that statement is a charge against the whole
people of Shetland. There are exceptions to every rule, and it may
be the case that some men are in debt.
13,809. But you don't know the circumstances of the whole people
of Shetland?-I have a pretty good idea with regard to most of
them.
13,810. Would it surprise you to be informed that two-thirds of the
fishermen in any district in Shetland were in debt at settlement to
the merchant to whom they sold their fish?-Yes, that would
surprise me.
13,811. Then the opinion you have formed as to the character of
the Shetland people proceeds on the supposition that that is not the
case?-It proceeds upon my own experience with Mr. Leask's
tenants and fishermen and seamen.
13,812. Would it surprise you to hear that a large proprietor in
Shetland had said that fishermen required to be treated like
children,-that they could not manage their own money matters,-
and that therefore he was obliged to take them into his own
hands?-I would be surprised to hear that, and I would not agree
with it at all. I have found them all to be very intelligent and very
sharp, and perfectly able to take care of themselves.
13,813. Do you think the men who are engaged in the ling
fishing are of the same class as those with whom you have had
dealings?-Some of them are the same, and I think the men
employed both in that fishing and in the Faroe fishing are all much
the same. They have all had the same opportunities. Then in Mr.
Walker's evidence, in answer to question 44,366, he estimates that
£60 or £70 goes into a Shetland house every year. I think that is an
over-estimate. About one half of that would be nearer the truth.
13,814. But his estimate of what goes into a Shetland house does
not apply to fish merely, but to all produce and stock from the
farm, and kelp and hosiery?-Still I consider that to be an
over-estimate, and I think about one half the sum he named would
be nearer the mark. Then, in question 44,368, he is asked, 'But the
greater portion of that is not paid in coin?' and he replies, 'Not a
fraction of it. If a man gets £1 or £2 out at the end of the season, it
is an extraordinary thing.' I deny that most positively, and I have
proved it not to be the case.
13,815. But that is only in your own business?-Yes. Then, in
answer to question 44,386, Mr. Walker says the cost of rearing a
lb. of Shetland wool was something like 8s. to 10s. He must have
been taking leave of his senses when he stated that. In order to
disprove his statement, I say that Mr. Leask's tenants in Yell pay
6d. a head for sheep for grazing over a whole twelve months, and a
Shetland sheep carries from 2 to 3 lbs. of wool on an average, so
that the cost of rearing it is something like 21/2d. or 3d.
13,816. But you don't include the price of the sheep or other
expenses except that of pasturage?-There are no expenses,
except driving now and then. They don't require to feed them in
winter, except perhaps for a day or so, when there is snow on the
ground.
13,817. Do they get no artificial food?-No. Very little of that is
ever imported.
13,818. You don't take into account the rent which the tenant
pays for his ground?-That has nothing to do with the rearing of
the sheep. They are reared altogether on the scattald.
13,819. But the use of the scattald is limited to tenants?-No.
Those who are not tenants get permission from Mr. Leask to graze
sheep on the scattald at 6d. per head, being the same rate as for
tenants.
13,820. Is that the usual practice in Shetland?-I don't know that
it is, but that is the practice with Mr. Leask, and plenty of people
who are not tenants of his enjoy the same privilege. I merely
mention that to disprove this statement of Mr. Walker's, which is
so glaringly incorrect. I hold that 1 lb. of Shetland wool as bought
from Mr. Leask's tenants costs only from 2d. to 3d. I don't think I
need take up your time by going over the evidence any further. I
would merely say that I disagree with all, or almost all, of Mr.
Walker's statements. The parts of his evidence with which I more
particularly disagree are contained in the answers to the following
questions:-Nos. 44,290, 44,316, 44,318, 44,319, 44,337, 44,345,
44,346, 44,351, 44,353, 44,366, 44,368, 44,369, 44,370, 44,372,
44,374, 44,384, 44,385, 44,386, 44,389, 44,392, 44,411. The
statements in Mr. Smith's evidence which I more particularly deny
are contained in the answers to the following questions:-Nos.
44,160, 44,195, 44,222, 44,225, 44,226, 44,241, 44,244, 44,245,
44,246, 44,247, 44,248, 44,252.
13,821. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, JOSEPH LEASK, examined.
13,822. I believe you are the largest employer in the Faroe trade,
and also one of the largest fish-curers in the island?-I am one of
the largest: I don't know that I am the largest.
13,823. The previous witness, Mr. William Robertson, has been
for a long time in your employment?-Yes.
13,824. He came forward to be examined, I understand, at your
suggestion, in order that you, being advanced in years, might not
require to do so?-Yes; and he has been more in the habit of
settling with the men than I have been myself.
13,825. Have you heard the greater part of his evidence?-I have.
13,826. Do you know it to be correct?-I do.
13,827. You concur in it generally?-Yes. There is only one point
on which I would make a remark. With regard to some fishermen
getting higher prices than others from small curers, I know there
were one or two parties who got more last year, the reason being
that there are frequently parties in Scotland who get orders for fish
for Australia, and these parties give a higher price than ordinary in
order to get good fish, and they are shipped earlier in the season
than the bulk of the fish. Last year, also, one or two curers shipped
to parties in London at a higher price, and consequently were able
to give a higher price to their fishermen; but that was only an
exception.
13,828. That would not explain the fact of certain curers paying a
higher price every year?-No.
13,829. Is there anything else you wish to state?-No.
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, LAURENCE SIMPSON, examined.
13,830. Are you a tenant on the estate of Lunna?-I do not wish to
give any statement before you at all, [Page 346] because the
proprietor may not look well upon me, and perhaps may raise my
rent or warn me. My name has been put in to you privately
without my knowledge. I did not give it in myself.
13,831. Every one knows that you do not come here of your own
free will, but that you have been summoned to come just as you
would be summoned as a witness in a court of law. Now that you
are here, you are bound to answer the questions which are put to
you, and to speak the truth?-I will do so as far as I can, and as far
as my memory will enable me.
13,832. Then you are a tenant on the estate of Lunna?-I am.
13,833. Are you bound to fish for the tacksman of Lunna?-I
believe I am, so far as I can understand.
13,834. You have no liberty to sell your fish to anybody else?-
No.
13,835. Was there a meeting held at Lunna about eight or ten years
ago, at which Mr. Bell and Mr. Robertson were present and told
the tenants that they were expected to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I
believe there was.
13,836. Were you there?-I don't remember.
13,837. But you knew about it?-I heard that Mr. Bell had
delivered the fishing over to Mr. Robertson.
13,838. Was that the reason why you did not want to come forward
to-day?-Yes.
13,839. You knew you were bound to fish, and you did not want to
say anything to the contrary?-Yes, in case it might affect me in
any way with them.
13,840. Would you prefer to have your liberty?-Of course; but
my days are done now. I have been bound to serve the estate since
I was eleven years of age, and now I am sixty. I was two years at
the beach when I was a boy; and I went to the ling fishing when I
was thirteen.
13,841. Has there been any time since then when you could
have sold your fish to anybody else than the landlord or his
tacksman?-I could have sold some of them to small fish-curers
or yaggers if I had pleased; but I did not attempt to do so, because
I thought I was bound to fish for them.
13,842. Are there small fish-curers or yaggers who buy fish on the
sly in the summer?-Yes.
13,843. But in the winter you can sell your fish to any person you
please?-I don't think we can do that either. None of the tenants
can sell their fish in winter unless they do it privately.
13,844. Do they all sell their winter and spring fish to Mr.
Robertson at present?-Yes.
13,845. Have they always sold them to the proprietor or his
tacksman?-Yes, except those who sell them privately.
13,846. Are there many yaggers about Lunna?-Not many.
13,847. Do they come round in the course of the season and
attempt to buy fish from you?-There is one or two of them
in Skerries. Mr. Adie is there.
13,848. But he is not a yagger?-No> John Hughson is also there.
Thomas Hughson was there for a while.
13,849. Who does Hughson act for?-John Hughson has only one
boat; but I believe he would buy fish from any one if he could get
them.
13,850. Where does Hughson live?-John Hughson lives at
Coppister, in the south-west part of Yell; and he has a man in
Skerries who cures some fish for him. I think they are in
partnership in some way.
13,851. What is the name of the man in Skerries?-I cannot say.
13,852. Have you seen men selling their fish to Hughson's factor
in Skerries?-No.
13,853. But you know that he is ready to buy them-I hear that.
13,854. Do you think that a man selling his fish to these men, or to
any other yagger, would lose his farm?-I don't know.
13,855. But you don't sell to these people yourself, for fear of
losing your farm?-I wish to serve the man that I am bound to,
and to sell all my fish to him, so far as I can.
13,856. Are you bound to fish for him by your own free will?-I
believe it is the landlord who has bound me, but I cannot say.
13,857. Can the landlord bind you unless you agree yourself to be
bound?-I am his tenant, and I must submit to his terms.
13,858. Could you not get another holding if you were not
satisfied?-The holdings are very difficult to get, because a
large part of Shetland has been laid out in sheep farms, and
tenants have no opportunity of getting places.
13,859. Do you know John Johnston and Arthur Anderson, who
were once in Lunna, and who went over to Burravoe some years
ago?-Yes.
13,860. Do you know why they left?-I cannot say, unless it was
because they were not satisfied in some way or other, and looked
out for better places.
13,861. Did they not leave because they did not want to be bound
to fish?-I cannot say.
13,862. Where do you get your supplies?-I purchase them in
Lerwick, or wherever I can get them cheapest, except when I run
out, and then I take them from the shop at Vidlin.
13,863. Do you buy much in Lerwick?-Sometimes I buy a good
quantity; but when my stock runs out, I go to the merchant who is
nearest to me for any small thing I want.
13,864. Then you don't get much of your supplies at Mr.
Robertson's shop at Vidlin?-I can get any supplies there that I
ask for, but I wish to go where I can purchase them cheapest.
13,865. Can you purchase them cheaper in Lerwick than at
Vidlin?-Yes; but of course we must allow for freight.
13,866. But, allowing for freight, do you think you are cheaper, on
the whole, by buying in Lerwick rather than in Vidlin?-Yes.
13,867. What kind of goods do you get at Vidlin?-Meal or tea, or
anything I want.
13,868. Do you get most of them there?-No; I only get a part.
13,869. Does it depend upon whether you have a balance in your
favour, or cash in your hands, that you go to Vidlin?-I sometimes
go for credit and sometimes for cash.
13,870. Do you get your goods at the same price there, whether
you get them on account or pay cash?-I believe I do.
13,871. Is that [showing] your pass-book with Mr. Robertson at
Vidlin?-Yes. The account is kept with Mr. Robert Sutherland,
the shopkeeper there. I also produce an old account for 1864.
13,872. Do you always keep a pass-book?-No; only at times. I
got that account just after the settlement. I thought it rather too
heavy, and I wished a copy of it; but I cannot say whether it is
accurate or not.
13,873. Did you get a discount when you complained about the
account being too high?-I don't remember; but I have sometimes
got a small discount.
13,874. Is the settlement at Vidlin generally in December?-It is
generally after Martinmas, sometimes sooner and sometimes later.
13,875. We need not go back so far as 1864. Have you ever got an
account like that since?-No; I think that was the heaviest account
I ever had.
13,876. You never disputed the rates you were charged since
then?-No, I never disputed them.
13,877. Do you always get your account read over to you at
settlement?-Yes; Mr. Robertson sometimes does it.
13,878. Do you settle with Mr. Robertson himself?-Yes.
13,879. Does he always read over your account?-Sometimes he
reads it over, and at other times he allows me to get it read over by
Mr. Sutherland.
13,880. Is there a separate account kept for any of your family?-
No.
13,881. I see from your pass-book that in 1870 you got two
advances of cash in April and June?-Yes.
13,882. Do you get cash advanced to you when you ask it?-Yes.
[Page 347]
13,883. Had you a balance to get at the settlement for 1870?-I
think I had.
13,884. I see that on September 9th, 1870, you were charged
quarter boll best oatmeal, 5s. 8d.; September 26th, quarter boll, 5s.
6d.; one peck, 1s. 4d. Were you buying meal in Lerwick at that
time?-No; that was just about the time when I was getting in my
crop.
13,885. Did you buy any meal in Lerwick last summer or
autumn?-I bought some in April before I began to the fishing.
I paid £2 to Mr. John Tait for sack of Orkney oatmeal.
13,886. The book you have produced also contains your fish
account?-It contains a copy of it, which was made by my son on
Thursday night, from an old pass-book which I used in settling
with Mr. Robertson.
13,887. In 1870 you got 7s. 3d. for your ling: did all the fishermen
in Lunnasting get the same?-Yes.
13,888.,Was that the current price for the year?-Yes, but I
believe some got more.
13,889. Did you hear that the people about Sandwick had got 8s.
3d. for ling that year?-Yes.
13,890. Was that from Smith and Tulloch, the curers there?-I
don't know the men's names, but I believe it was.
13,891. Do you think it would have been possible to pay you as
high as that, and to allow the fish-curer a decent profit?-I could
not know unless I had been dealing in the fish myself, but I don't
think it would have been possible.
13,892. The current price this year was 8s. for ling, 6s. 6d. for tusk
and cod, and 4s. for saith?-Yes.
13,893. Do you think there was a higher price paid anywhere else
this year?-I cannot say.
13,894. If you had got the price that was paid in 1870 at Sandwick,
would you have had a larger sum to receive for your fishing?-
Yes; we would have received about £13 more for the crew on the
summer and harvest fishing.
13,895. Do you fish much in harvest?-No; we sometimes fish
two weeks after old Lammas Day.
13,896. Is that put into a separate account from the summer
fishing?-Yes, but it is all paid at the same time, because it has
been earned by the same crew.
13,897. Do you sometimes fish in small boats in winter?-I have
done that on former occasions, but not now. I have dropped the
winter fishing.
13,898. Did you sometimes take large quantities of fish in
winter?-Sometimes the fishing then was not very good. In
some years we might make a few pounds by it.
13,899. Did you always sell your winter fish to the tacksman at
Vidlin?-Sometimes; but I cannot say that we did so always.
13,900. Did you consider yourself bound to sell them to him?-I
believed I was bound.
13,901. But you were not so strict in doing it in winter as you were
with regard to the summer fishing?-No.
13,902. What led you to think that you were bound to sell your
winter fish to him as well as your summer fish?-I don't know. I
only knew that the tacksman wished to have them; but we did not
sell them all to him.
13,903. Are you at perfect liberty to go to Lerwick for your goods
if you choose?-Yes.
13,904. Does Sutherland or any one else ask you at settlement if
you want any goods?-No; they just give me whatever goods I ask.
13,905. But do they ask you if you want anything when you are
settling?-At times they may, but not always.
13,906. Do you settle in the shop at Vidlin?-We settle in the
office behind the shop.
13,907. Do you go past the counter into the office?-Yes.
13,908. After you have had your account read over to you, and the
amount of your fish stated, are you ever asked whether you want
any more goods?-No; not unless I please to take some.
13,909. But are you ever asked if you want them?-I cannot say
that I am. If I buy anything myself, then they may ask me if I want
anything more.
13,910. Do they not ask you unless you are buying something at
any rate?-No.
13,911. Does not Mr. Sutherland sometimes ask you if you want
goods before you go in to settle?-No.
13,912. If you take goods at that time, are they put into your
account for the past year, or do they go into your account for the
next year?-They are entered any way I choose. Perhaps they
may be marked down to account, or I may pay for them in cash if
it is any small thing. I don't wish to run a heavy account.
13,913. Do you pay in cash for the articles you get in Lerwick, or
have you an account with Mr. Tait?-There are some merchants
who know me who would give me credit for perhaps twelve
months or so, but sometimes I pay cash down.
13,914. I suppose they know that you have got something in the
bank?-It is not much. Mr. Robertson is my banker.
13,915. Then you sometimes leave your balance in his hands at the
end of the year, and get interest on it?-Yes.
13,916. Why do you not deal more with him for your supplies
when he is your banker?-I deal with him in Lerwick, but I deal as
little as possible at Vidlin, unless when I run out.
13,917. Do you get goods from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick?-Yes, I
get what I want.
13,918. Have you an account with him here as well as an account
in the shop at Vidlin?-Yes.
13,919. Do you get any meal from him in Lerwick?-Yes, and tea
and sugar.
13,920. Do you get them cheaper from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick
than at Vidlin?-Yes.
13,921. On the opposite side of your Lerwick account is there
entered any money or interest that is due to you?-Yes; Mr.
Robertson enters that in his book.
13,922. Do you know whether John Hughson buys a large quantity
of fish in the course of a year?-I cannot say.
13,923. Why do the men prefer to sell to him?-They do it of their
own free will.
13,924. Do they get a larger price from him?-Perhaps they may,
but they only sell to him privately.
13,925. Did any man ever tell you that he had got a larger price
from Hughson?-I don't remember.
13,926. Would he be paying money at the time for the fish which
were sold to him?-Perhaps he might, or in any trifle of goods
which were needed at the time. There are some things which Mr.
Robertson may be out of in Skerries, and we have to go to another
merchant for them. For instance, if we wanted a refreshment of
spirits, or anything like that, we have to go to Mr. Adie for it.
13,927. Does Hughson's man keep spirits too?-I don't know.
Perhaps he may have a little for supplying his own men, but I don't
know anything about that.
13,928. Has Mr. Adie got a licence?-Yes.
13,929. When fish are bought by Mr. Adie's man or by Hughson's
man, are they paid for at the time, or is there an account kept of
them?-I cannot say; perhaps the men may run a small account,
and settle it up afterwards. I have had to go to Mr. Adie for many
a thing, and I have run an account with him for them.
13,930. Do you not sell fish to him?-No.
13,931. You merely run an account with him for anything you
want?-Yes.
13,932. Has Mr. Robertson not a shopkeeper at Skerries in the
summer time as well as Mr. Adie?-He has a small supply of
goods there, such as lines, and tea and sugar; but that is all.
Sometimes I required something else and went to Mr. Adie for it,
and sometimes I bought my stores at Lerwick.
[Page 348]
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, LAURENCE ROBERTSON, examined.
13,933. Are you a fisherman at Skelberry, in Lunnasting?-I am.
13,934. Are you bound to fish for the tacksman, Mr. Robertson?-
Yes.
13,935. How do you know that you are bound?-Because I
understand we are bound by Mr. Bell to fish for him.
13,936. Who told you that?-When Mr. Bell came in to rule over
us at first, the agreement was that the tenants were to give the offer
of all their produce to him, and to no other man.
13,937. Did Mr. Bell tell you that?-Yes.
13,938. Was that about ten or twelve years ago?-It is longer ago
than that.
13,939. Was it when Mr. Bell came to the estate first?-Yes.
13,940. Did he buy your fish at that time?-Yes.
13,941. Was there a meeting at which Mr. Bell told you that?-
Yes; it took place in the house of Lunna.
13,942. How were you informed that Mr. Robertson became the
tacksman?-We were informed that he was the tacksman, and we
knew it.
13,943. Was there a meeting at that time too?-I was aware of
none.
13,944. You only heard that Mr. Robertson became tacksman, and
you don't remember who told you?-No.
13,945. Have you always fished for him since, and got the current
price?-Yes.
13,946. Do you get your provisions at the shop at Vidlin?-Yes;
and sometimes I get them from Mr. Robertson's shop in Lerwick,
if I ask them there.
13,947. Do you keep an account at Lerwick also?-Yes, a small
account.
13,948. Is it separate from the Vidlin account?-They are all
brought together and settled for at the same time.
13,949. Do you get your goods cheaper when you come to
Lerwick for them, than when you get them at Vidlin?-I cannot
say, because I never had money to purchase them with.
13,950. You have always had to run an account?-Yes.
13,951. Had you a balance to get in cash at the end of last year?-
No; I was in debt.
13,952. Have you been so for many years?-Yes.
13,953. Have you sometimes bought your goods at other shops?-
Not often, because I did not have money to buy them with there.
13,954. When you did buy them at other shops, where did you get
the money?-In the first part of the time I had a little; but I have
not bought anything at other shops lately.
13,955. Do you not sometimes sell your winter fish for a little
money in hand?-No.
13,956. Do you sometimes get an advance from Mr. Robertson?-
Yes. If I ask for a little money I get it.
13,957. Have you got a pass-book?-Yes. I have got an account of
my last year's dealings here. [Produces it.]
13,958. Have you always had a pass-book?-No.
13,959. Is this the first one you had?-Yes.
13,960. You pay your rent to Mr. Robertson, and it is put into your
account?-Yes.
13,961. You begin on December 12, 1870, with a balance against
you of £22, 18s. 8d., and that was increased at December last to
£39, 14s. 2d., including the rent?-Yes.
13,962. You were credited at settlement with a payment of cash in
August of £2, and with the amount of your fishing, £18, 12s. 11d.,
reducing the balance to £19, 1s. 3d.?-Yes.
13,963. Where did the cash you paid in August come from?-It
came from the sale of an ox.
13,964. Who did you sell it to?-I cannot exactly say, because it
was my wife who sold it. I was at Skerries at the time.
13,965. Have you got any supplies since November from the
Vidlin shop?-Yes.
13,966. Are the supplies of the men sometimes stopped when they
get too deep in debt?-Yes.
13,967. Are they then put upon a certain allowance?-Yes.
13,968. Is that a common thing about Vidlin?-I cannot say for
any one but myself. I have been put upon an allowance; but I
cannot say how much it was, because it was my family who always
got it.
13,969. I see that in your book on June 14, 21, and 28, there are
entries on each of these dates of 24 lbs. oatmeal, and 3s. 81/2d. for
flour; was that your allowance?-I believe so.
13,970. There are similar entries on July 5 and 12, and there is no
other entry till 26th July, when you got double the quantity, but it
is entered in a different form?-Yes.
13,971. Did you understand that you were on an allowance all last
summer?-Yes.
13,972. Was that done with the view of reducing the amount of
your debt?-Certainly.
13,973. And it is considerably reduced now?-Yes.
13,974. Do you think you will get it all wiped off?-I don't know.
It depends on the fishing and the crop.
13,975. Are there many men are in the same position as
yourself?-That is a secret to me. I don't know how the men's
accounts stand with Mr. Robertson.
13,976. Why did you get so far into debt?-I and my family had
a fever in the middle of summer about six years ago, and I got
behind then. My earnings were all stopped by the fever.
13,977. Do you think that if you had ready money you would be
able to purchase your supplies cheaper than you can get them at
the Vidlin shop?-I don't know. Perhaps if I was trying, I might
be able to purchase them a little better. There are freights and
other things that must make them dearer at Vidlin than elsewhere.
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ROBERT SIMPSON, examined.
13,978. Are you a fisherman at Valour, in Lunnasting?-I am.
13,979. Are you a relation of Laurence Simpson, who has been
already examined?-I am his brother.
13,980. Have you heard his evidence?-Yes, I heard good deal of
it; but his case is different from mine, because he has had ready
money with which to purchase things as he best could, and I have
not had it. I have been obliged to take my goods from the people I
was fishing to, because I did not have money with which to buy
them at any other place.
13,981. Do you think he got his things rather cheaper than you in
consequence of having ready money?-I think so.
13,982. Were you obliged to deal at the shop at Vidlin?-I was,
because I was in debt.
13,983. Were you bound to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I was.
13,984. Do you think you could have got a better price for your
fish if you had been free?-Perhaps we might; but we could not
ask for it, because we were bound.
13,985. If you were free, would you attempt to cure your own fish,
or to sell them to another curer?-I might.
13,986. Do you think you would make anything by curing your
own fish?-I think I would.
13,987. Would you be able to give some idle time to it when you
could not go to sea?-If we were curing our own fish, two or three
boats would join together, and employ a man and a boy for the
purpose, and then the men would have all their time to go to sea.
13,988. Would you have a factor of your own?-Yes, if we had
our freedom.
[Page 349]
13,989. Have you often thought about that?-We would have
thought about it if we had had our freedom; but we were bound,
and we could not do it.
13,990. Have you got your pass-book?-I have had no pass-book
for some time. There was one year when I had a pass-hook for
some time, but it was not made up regularly, and it was given up.
Then the whole account was put into the ledger, and Mr.
Sutherland went over it with me at settlement; but the last year Mr.
Sutherland was busy, and we did not get it done. This year,
however, Mr. Robertson has given me a copy of the account for
the two years' transactions. I only got it to-day before I came
down here, but I cannot understand it very well. [Produces two
passbooks.]
13,991. Did you get the copy of your account after you got the
summons to come here?-No. The girl came with it just about the
same time that the summons came. She had been over at the shop,
and she brought the summons with her.
13,992. Did you ask Mr. Robertson at settlement for a copy of your
account?-I asked Mr. Sutherland to read over my account, and
when I went to hear him read it he said he would give me a copy,
and he has put it down in a pass-book.
13,993. I see here an entry on 17th current, 'To paid freight on b.
meal, 5d.' What does that mean?-It was a boll of meal I got from
Lerwick, and very likely Mr. Sutherland has paid the freight for
me.
13,994. Did you get that meal from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick?-
No, I got it from William Smith.
13,995. The balance against you in December 1869 was £30, 5s.
3d., and it was reduced at last settlement to £21, 17s. 111/2d.?-
Yes, I have brought it down to that by my two years' earnings.
13,996. How did you happen to have such a large debt?-I had a
fever in the same year that Laurence Robertson was ill, and I
earned no more that year, although the fishing then was a good
one. My illness brought me into debt that season, and I have never
been able to clear it off.
13,997. I see in your account on 7th September last, 'By balance
to kelp, per son Robert, 6s. 4d.' How does that go into your
account?-The boy had some things out of the shop, and that has
likely been to pay for them.
13,998. Had he an account of his own for kelp?-He had no
account, because he is not old enough yet but he was working with
his mother and sisters at the kelp, and he got some clothes.
13,999. Had his mother and sisters some out-takes from the shop
while they were working at the kelp?-Yes.
14,000. And the 6s. 4d. would be what was due on the kelp above
the amount of these out-takes?-It was what they allowed the boy
for his share of the kelp.
14,001. Had your wife and your daughters accounts of their own
separate from yours?-Yes.
14,002. Do the other members of your family always have
accounts of their own, independent of your account?-They
have had accounts for kelp, and perhaps for some other trifles
besides.
14,003. Do they take in hosiery at the Vidlin shop?-Very little.
14,004. Do they take any of it from the members of your
family?-I don't know if they have much to give them, but if
they wanted a little at a time they might have taken some of it
to them.
14,005. I see on September 22, 'By 74 lbs. wool at 111/2d.' What
was that?-It was wool that I gave into the shop to help to pay off
my account.
14,006. Was that all the wool off your sheep for the year?-It was
not the whole of it. I had a little more than that. There had been
some of it used for my own family. The sheep were kept in a park
which Mr. Bell had taken in. We had it as a free pasture before,
but he took the pasture from us, and rouped the park for £15, to
keep 200 head of sheep. That was the reason why we were bound
to give our produce to Mr. Robertson. I considered it right in me
to give him the wool, in order to pay for the rent of the park; but
previously we had that pasture at our own freedom.
14,007. Were you bound to sell the wool and the sheep in that
pasture to Mr. Robertson?-Mr. Robertson was the cautioner to
Mr. Bell for the rent of it, the same as he was for the rent of our
toon.
14,008. Was he the tacksman?-Yes.
14,009. And Mr. Robertson let you the park?-No. Mr. Bell let us
the park. It was his own property, but Mr. Robertson was
cautioner for the rent.
14,010. Was the park at Lunna House?-No. It was a park about a
mile to the south of Lunna. We were allowed by Mr. Bell to put
200 head into it, and we did so; but there came a dearth, and it
could hardly bear that number.
14,011. Have you got the park still?-Yes, I and my brother and
Mr. Anderson. There was another man interested in it at first,
Hunter Sinclair, but he gave up his share, and now the three of us
have it.
14,012. Have you one-third share of the sheep which are put upon
it?-Yes.
14,013. And this was the wool which had been produced from
these sheep?-Yes; and because Mr. Robertson had become bound
for the rent of the park, we thought we ought to give him the wool
in return.
14,014. Was 111/2d. the current price for wool last autumn?-I
cannot say. That was what we got for it from Mr. Sutherland.
14,015. Did anybody else offer to buy it from you?-We did not
offer it to anybody else, because we thought he had a better right
to it, as he was paying the rent. There were several people asking
me for it, but I would not sell it to them.
14,016. How much did they offer you for the wool?-We never
came to any particular agreement about the price, because I would
not consent to sell it to them at all.
14,017. Did they not say anything about what they would give
you?-They spoke of 1s.; but I thought it better to sell it for 111/2d.
wholesale than to sell it to them for 1s., even although I had had
power to do it. Besides, I thought Mr. Robertson had the best right
to it.
14,018. Had Mr. Robertson told you that he expected to get your
wool?-I cannot say that he had.
14,019. Had Mr. Sutherland told you that?-If I could have paid
my debt he would not have asked it.
14,020. But did Mr. Sutherland tell you that he expected to get
your wool?-Sometimes he would ask me if I would give him the
wool, and that I would be better to give it to him than to sell it to
another.
14,021. Even at a halfpenny less?-Yes.
14,022. How do you sell your eggs?-We sell them mostly to Mr.
Sutherland, and get small stores for them at the time, such as tea or
sugar, or anything we want. They do not go into the account.
14,023. The eggs are never paid for in cash?-No; but I have no
doubt we would get cash for them if we asked it.
14,024. But you always choose to take tea or sugar?-Yes, just the
things we are needing.
14,025. Is that the way in which all the people in your
neighbourhood do with their eggs?-I cannot say it is the way
with the whole of them. Perhaps some of them may take them to
other places for anything they want; but I believe most of the
people dispose of them in that way to Mr. Sutherland.
14,026. Do you know Robert Murray at Swinister-Yes.
14,027. He is a merchant there, and keeps a shop?-Yes.
14,028. Does he sometimes buy fish?-He buys small fish, like
what are called hand-line fish, or fish caught with lines near the
shore; but I cannot say whether he has the summer time or not. He
may have, for anything I know.
14,029. Does he sometimes engage people to fish for him in the
winter or spring or summer?-I don't know.
14,030. Do you know whether he once engaged a [Page 350] man
named Peter Williamson?-I heard so. I heard that Williamson
was bargained to fish to Robert Murray, and that Mr Robertson
would not allow him to do so. I never asked Mr Robertson about
that.
14,031. Are you a relation of Mr Robertson?-I am his cousin.
14,032. Does Murray sometimes buy fish in the same way as the
yaggers do?-He buys fish in his own shop; but I don't know that
he goes to the Skerrries, or anywhere at a distance to buy fish.
14,033. Do the men sometimes go to him when they want a little
ready money or supplies that cannot be got at Vidlin?-There are
none of the fishermen at Lunnasting who go to him, so far as I am
aware.
14,034. Is his place a long way from where you live?-Yes; it
takes me a good day when I go there by sea, and it is a long way by
land; but I never sold a tail of fish to him in my life.