THE PRESIDENT: Does the British Prosecutor wish to ask any questions?
BRITISH PROSECUTOR: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Or the United States?
AMERICAN PROSECUTOR: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the Defense Counsel wish to ask any questions?
DR. NELTE: Witness, when were you taken prisoner?
ROSER: I was taken prisoner on 14 June 1940.
DR. NELTE: In which camp for prisoners of war were you put?
ROSER: I was immediately sent to the Oflag, XI D, at
Grossborn-Westfalenhof in Pomerania.
DR. NELTE: Oflag?
ROSER: Yes.
DR. NELTE: What regulations were made known to you in the
prisoner-of-war camp regarding a possible attempt at escape?
ROSER: We were warned that we would be shot at and that we should not
try to escape.
DR. NELTE: Do you think that this warning was in agreement with the
Geneva Convention?
ROSER: This one certainly.
DR. NELTE: You mentioned, if I heard correctly, the case of Robin from
Oflag XI D. You said that there was an officer who dug a tunnel in order
to escape from the camp, and that as he was the first to emerge from the
tunnel, he was shot. Is that right?
ROSER: Yes; I said so.
DR. NELTE: Were you with those officers who tried to escape?
ROSER: I said before that this was related to me by Lieutenant Ledoux
who was still in Oflag XI D when that happened.
DR. NELTE: I only wanted to ascertain that this officer, Robin, met his
death while trying to escape.
ROSER: Yes, but here I should like to mention one thing, namely, all the
prisoners of war who escaped knew they risked their lives. Everyone
attempting to escape, knew that he risked a bullet. But it is one thing
to be killed trying to climb the barbed wire, for instance, and it is
another thing to be ambushed and murdered at a moment when one cannot do
anything, when one is unarmed and at the mercy of somebody, as was the
case with Lieutenant Robin. He was in a low tunnel, flat on his stomach,
crawling along, and was killed. That was not in accordance with
international rules.
DR. NELTE: I see what you mean, and you may rest assured that I respect
every prisoner of war who tried to do his duty as a patriot. In this
case, however, which you did not witness, I wanted to make the point
that this courageous officer who left the tunnel might not have answered
when challenged by the guards and was therefore shot.
ROSER: No.
DR. NELTE: Though you have just given a vivid description of the
incident, I think it was a product of your imagination because,
according to your own testimony, you did not see it yourself; is that
correct?
ROSER: There are not 36 different ways of getting out of an escape
tunnel: You lie flat on your stomach, you crawl, and if you are killed
before you get out of the tunnel, I call that murder.
DR. NELTE: And then you saw the officer . . .
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Nelte, we do not want argument in cross-examination.
The witness has already stated that he was not there and did not see it,
and he has explained the facts.
DR. NELTE: Thank you. The incident in respect to Lieutenant Thomson is
not quite clear to me. In this case too, I believe you said you had no
direct knowledge, but were informed by a friend. Is that correct?
ROSER: I cannot but repeat what I said before. I related the story of
the French lieutenant, Ledoux, who told me that he was in the fortress
of Graudenz together with an R.A.F. lieutenant called Anthony Thomson.
This English officer escaped from the fortress. He was recaptured on the
airfield, taken back to the fortress, put into the same cell as
Lieutenant Ledoux, and Ledoux saw him killed by a revolver shot in the
back of the neck. Ledoux gave me the name of the murderer. I think I
mentioned him just now, Hauptfeldwebel Ostereich. This is the story told
me by an eyewitness.
DR. NELTE: Was that Hauptfeldwebel Ostereich a guard at the camp, or to
what formation did he belong?
ROSER: I don’t know.
DR. NELTE: Do you know that you, as prisoner of war, had a right to
complain?
ROSER: Certainly; I personally knew the Geneva Convention which was
signed by Germany in 1934.
DR. NELTE: Knowing those regulations you also knew, did you not, that
you could complain to the camp commander? Did you avail yourself of
that?
ROSER: I tried to do so, but without success.
DR. NELTE: May I ask you for the name of the camp commander who refused
to hear you?
ROSER: I do not know the name, but I will tell you when I tried to
complain. It was when I was in the infamous Linzburg Strafkommando
(punishment squad) in the province of Hanover. This squad belonged to
Stalag XC. In the morning following the night I have just described,
when, after an unsuccessful attempt at escape, we were beaten for 3
hours running, some of us were kept in the barracks. We then saw the
immediate superior of the commander of the squad. It was an
Oberleutnant, whose name I do not know, who saw that we were injured,
particularly about the head, and he considered it quite all right. In
the afternoon we went to work. When we returned at 7 o’clock we had the
visit of a major, a very distinguished-looking man, who also thought
that, as we had tried to escape, it was quite in order that we should be
punished. As to our complaint, it went no further.
DR. NELTE: Did you know that the German Government had made an agreement
with the Vichy Government regarding prisoners of war?
ROSER: Yes, I have heard of that, but they did not inspect squads of
this kind.
DR. NELTE: You mean to say that only the camps were inspected, but not
the labor squads?
ROSER: There were inspections of the labor squads, but not of the
punishment squads where I was. That is the difference.
DR. NELTE: You were not always in a disciplinary squad, were you?
ROSER: No.
DR. NELTE: When were you put in a disciplinary squad?
ROSER: In April 1941, for the first time. It was a squad to which only
officer cadets and priests were sent without any obvious reasons. This
was the Linzburg Strafkommando squad which did not receive any visits.
At Rawa-Ruska we received the visit of two Swiss doctors; I think it was
in September 1942.
DR. NELTE: In September 1942?
ROSER: Yes, in September 1942.
DR. NELTE: Did you complain to the Swiss doctors?
ROSER: Not I personally, but our spokesman was able to talk to them.
DR. NELTE: And were there any results?
ROSER: Yes, certainly.
DR. NELTE: Do you not think that a complaint made through the camp
commander would likewise have been successful, if you had wished to
resort to it?
ROSER: We were not on very friendly terms with the German staff at
Rawa-Ruska.
DR. NELTE: I do not quite understand you.
ROSER: I said we were not on friendly terms with the German commander of
the Rawa-Ruska Camp.
DR. NELTE: It is not a question of good terms, but of a complaint which
could be made in an official manner. Do you not think so?
[_The witness shrugged his shoulders._]
DR. NELTE: When did you leave Rawa-Ruska?
ROSER: At the end of October 1942.
DR. NELTE: If I remember rightly, you mentioned the number of victims
counted or observed by you, did you not?
ROSER: Yes.
DR. NELTE: How many victims were there?
ROSER: It was a figure given to me by Dr. Lievin, a French doctor at
Rawa-Ruska. There were, as I said, about sixty deaths in the camp
itself, to which approximately one hundred must be added who
disappeared.
DR. NELTE: Are you speaking of French victims or victims in general?
ROSER: When I was at Rawa-Ruska there were only Frenchmen there, with a
few Poles and a few Belgians.
DR. NELTE: I am putting this question because an official French report
I have before me, dated 14 June 1945, states that the victims up to the
end of July were 14 Frenchmen, and therefore for the period from August
to September the number seems to me very high. Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other German counsel want to put any questions
to this witness? [_There was no response._] M. Dubost?
M. DUBOST: I have finished with this witness, Mr. President. If the
Tribunal will permit me, I shall now call another witness, the last one.
THE PRESIDENT: One moment, M. Dubost, the witness can retire.
[_The witness left the stand._]
M. Dubost, could you tell the Tribunal whether the witness you are about
to call is going to give us any evidence of a different nature from the
evidence which has already been given? Because you will remember that we
have in the French document, of which we shall take judicial notice—a
very large French document; I forget the number, 321 I believe it is,
Document Number RF-321; we have a very large volume of evidence on the
conditions in concentration camps. Is the witness you are going to call
going to prove anything fresh?
M. DUBOST: Your Honors, the witness whom we are going to call is to
testify to a certain number of experiments which he witnessed. He has
even submitted certain documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Are these experiments about which the witness is going to
speak all recorded, in the Document Number RF-321?
M. DUBOST: They are referred to, but not reported in detail. Moreover,
in view of the importance attached to statements of witnesses in the
French presentation concerning the camps, I shall considerably curtail
my work and will dispense with reading the documentary evidence, a large
amount of which I shall merely submit after these witnesses have been
heard.
THE PRESIDENT: You may call the witness, but try not to let him be too
long.