MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: No.
M. DUBOST: I thank you. If the Tribunal wishes to question the witness,
I have finished.
GEN. RUDENKO: I have no questions to ask.
DR. HANNS MARX (Acting for Dr. Babel, Counsel for the SS): Attorney
Babel was prevented from coming this morning as he has to attend a
conference with General Mitchell.
My Lords, I should like to take the liberty of asking the witness a few
questions to elucidate the matter.
[_Turning to the witness._] Madame Couturier, you declared that you were
arrested by the French police?
MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: Yes.
DR. MARX: For what reason were you arrested?
MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: Resistance. I belonged to a resistance
movement.
DR. MARX: Another question: Which position did you occupy? I mean what
kind of post did you ever hold? Have you ever held a post?
MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: Where?
DR. MARX: For example as a teacher?
MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: Before the war? I don’t quite see what this
question has to do with the matter. I was a journalist.
DR. MARX: Yes. The fact of the matter is that you, in your statement,
showed great skill in style and expression; and I should like to know
whether you held any position such, for example, as teacher or lecturer.
MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: No. I was a newspaper photographer.
DR. MARX: How do you explain that you yourself came through these
experiences so well and are now in such a good state of health?
MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: First of all, I was liberated a year ago; and
in a year one has time to recover. Secondly, I was 10 months in
quarantine for typhus and I had the great luck not to die of
exanthematic typhus, although I had it and was ill for 3½ months. Also,
in the last months at Ravensbrück, as I knew German, I worked on the
Revier roll call, which explains why I did not have to work quite so
hard or to suffer from the inclemencies of the weather. On the other
hand, out of 230 of us only 49 from my convoy returned alive; and we
were only 52 at the end of 4 months. I had the great fortune to return.
DR. MARX: Yes. Does your statement contain what you yourself observed or
is it concerned with information from other sources as well?
MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: Whenever such was the case I mentioned it in my
declaration. I have never quoted anything which has not previously been
verified at the sources and by several persons, but the major part of my
evidence is based on personal experience.
DR. MARX: How can you explain your very precise statistical knowledge,
for instance, that 700,000 Jews arrived from Hungary?
MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: I told you that I have worked in the offices;
and where Auschwitz was concerned, I was a friend of the secretary (the
Oberaufseherin), whose name and address I gave to the Tribunal.
DR. MARX: It has been stated that only 350,000 Jews came from Hungary,
according to the testimony of the Chief of the Gestapo, Eichmann.
MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: I am not going to argue with the Gestapo. I
have good reasons to know that what the Gestapo states is not always
true.
DR. MARX: How were you treated personally? Were you treated well?
MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: Like the others.
DR. MARX: Like the others? You said before that the German people must
have known of the happenings in Auschwitz. What are your grounds for
this statement?
MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: I have already told you: To begin with there
was the fact that, when we left, the Lorraine soldiers of the Wehrmacht
who were taking us to Auschwitz said to us, “If you knew where you were
going, you would not be in such a hurry to get there.” Then there was
the fact that the German women who came out of quarantine to go to work
in German factories knew of these events, and they all said that they
would speak about them outside.
Further, the fact that in all the factories where the Häftlinge (the
internees) worked they were in contact with the German civilians, as
also were the Aufseherinnen, who were in touch with their friends and
families and often told them what they had seen.
DR. MARX: One more question. Up to 1942 you were able to observe the
behavior of the German soldiers in Paris. Did not these German soldiers
behave well throughout and did they not pay for what they took?
MME. VAILLANT-COUTURIER: I have not the least idea whether they paid or
not for what they requisitioned. As for their good behavior, too many of
my friends were shot or massacred for me not to differ with you.
DR. MARX: I have no further question to put to this witness.
[_Dr. Marx started to leave the lectern and then returned._]
THE PRESIDENT: If you have no further question there is nothing more to
be said. [_Laughter._] There is too much laughter in the court; I have
already spoken about that.
[_To Dr. Marx._] I thought you had said you had no further question.
DR. MARX: Yes. Please excuse me. I only want to make a proviso for
Attorney Babel that he might cross-examine the witness himself at a
later date, if that is possible.
THE PRESIDENT: Babel, did you say?
DR. MARX: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: I beg your pardon; yes, certainly. When will Dr. Babel be
back in his place?
DR. MARX: I presume that he will be back in the afternoon. He is in the
building. However, he must first read the minutes.
THE PRESIDENT: We will consider the question. If Dr. Babel is here this
afternoon we will consider the matter, if Dr. Babel makes a further
application.
Does any other of the defendants’ counsel wish to ask any questions of
the witness?
[_There was no response._]