General WALKER. At one end is Avondale, which runs into Turtle Creek
going downhill east, and at the other end it goes into the parking lot
of the church. As you enter that parking lot from my alley, if you turn
directly right, you go down the church alley going into Turtle Creek,
and that is where the car was going down that I referred to, and it was
just making the turn out of the church alley.
Mr. LIEBELER. The alley that runs into Turtle Creek?
General WALKER. No; directly from the church alley into the Turtle
Creek main boulevard. Now, there is another alley right at the entrance
of my alley to the church parking lot, which runs straight west
practically to Oak Lawn. Hardly anybody knows it is there, because you
have to ease down it with an automobile, it is so narrow. And as I
know, only garbage trucks use it. I have been up and down it once or
twice only.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you got that pistol, did you go out the back
door of your house?
General WALKER. I went out the back door.
Mr. LIEBELER. You went into the alley?
General WALKER. I went about halfway out to the alley.
Mr. LIEBELER. From that point you could observe this car that was just
turning?
General WALKER. No, sir. I observed that--it was already gone--I
observed that from the window upstairs as I came down with the pistol.
I could see out the south window, front and left.
Mr. LIEBELER. I would imagine that you assumed that that car had gone
from the church parking lot down the alley and was at that point
entering Turtle Creek Boulevard?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see which direction it turned?
General WALKER. Left, going north.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to make any kind of identification of the
automobile at all?
General WALKER. None at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to see how many people were in it?
General WALKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem to be leaving in a hurry, or was it just
debarking?
General WALKER. There was no way to tell, because from the upstair's
windows you were looking through trees at the car and I probably
wouldn't have seen it unless I had seen the two taillights of it. It
only has to go a few feet and it is beyond the bank where you can
hardly see.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is a copy of a photograph
that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 1008, and ask you if you
can identify that picture, or tell us what is portrayed in it.
General WALKER. Well, it looks like an old wornout picture of the
wall beside my desk and the shothole as it appeared. It is not really
a picture. They used, evidently had plastered this silver foil-type
peculiar stuff on the wall previously and it is still there.
Mr. LIEBELER. But this does show the hole in the wall over your desk
that was made by the bullet that struck the wall; is that correct?
General WALKER. As far as I can identify it, that is what it looks
like. I could take the picture and probably match it up with those
flowers. It is a flower arrangement on this silver foil on the wall.
Mr. LIEBELER. That looks like your wallpaper, doesn't it?
General WALKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a copy of a picture that has been marked as
Commission Exhibit No. 1007, and ask you if you can recognize what is
shown in that picture.
General WATTS. Can we go off the record a minute?
Mr. LIEBELER. Certainly.
(Discussion off the record.)
General WALKER. Yes; I can identify this picture.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is it, generally?
General WALKER. It is an outside picture taken looking into the house,
taken from the west. The camera pointed east and took the house, and it
shows the shot and the broken glass in the window.
Mr. LIEBELER. The window of your home?
General WALKER. The window of my home at 4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is the window through which the shot was fired at
you on April 10, 1963?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible to see your desk?
General WALKER. Yes; you can see the chair. Let's go off the record a
minute.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's stay on the record. It is all right.
General WALKER. All right, what I had mixed up, I never knew anybody
got a picture of me pointing at anything, and that looks like my hand.
I didn't know this photographer was outside at the time. I was thinking
the picture was taken from the inside, but I see it perfectly now and
it is from the outside. This looks like there is a table here, from
this window, and in the corner running that way.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just inside the window?
General WALKER. Just inside the window. Then there is a space between
that and the desk. Then the desk is here at an angle across this
corner, and that looks like the chair. No; I am not sure. I did have
a chair in between me and the table, which may be that chair. It is
possible that you are not seeing the desk chair. There are two windows
in this wall, but those are too close to be the windows. That is one
of those panels, I suspect, like the flower panel. The window is still
further back here.
Mr. LIEBELER. So it is not possible to see your desk from that picture?
General WALKER. That picture is taken at this angle, see.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you can't really see your desk?
General WALKER. I would say my desk is back in that corner.
Mr. LIEBELER. But it would be directly, if you stood at the window and
looked straight through the window, you would be able to see your desk
across the room?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was your desk directly across the room from the window,
or was it sitting catercornered?
General WALKER. It was sitting catercornered in the corner on the
opposite side of the room. I was facing out over the desk toward the
center of the room.
Mr. LIEBELER. When the shot was fired?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you were almost facing the window at the time the
shot was fired; is that correct? Looking sideways?
General WALKER. No; I was looking to the center of the room.
Mr. LIEBELER. Sideways to the window? I am trying to drive at what kind
of shot the man had at you. Was he shooting at you from the side, from
the back, or from the front? I think it would be from the side.
General WALKER. More from the side than the front. Definitely from the
side but a little at an angle, because I was facing the center of the
room.
Mr. LIEBELER. Right. I show you a copy of a photograph that has been
marked Commission Exhibit No. 1006, and ask you if this is not also a
picture of the window through which the shot was fired showing where
the shot had apparently hit the sash at one point?
General WALKER. That looks like the window and where the shot was fired
through the window into the room. It certainly must be the same shot.
Mr. LIEBELER. It purports to be a photograph that was turned over to
the Commission by the police department and it purports to be a picture
of that window.
General WALKER. That is the same shot then.
Mr. LIEBELER. The bullet apparently actually hit a portion of the
window frame before it went through. Does that accord with your
recollection?
General WALKER. The bullet went through the screen frame. Then it went
through a portion of the window frame, and a portion of the glass.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a copy of a photograph that has been marked
Commission Exhibit No. 1009, and ask you if this is not in fact a
picture of the next room.
General WALKER. To closer identify that further, the screen frame
has a crosspiece in the center also, and the bullet went through the
crosspiece in the screen and then hit both the window frame and the
glass.
Mr. LIEBELER. Commission Exhibit No. 1009 is a picture of the room next
to the one in which you were sitting, and shows some literature that
was stored and the place where the bullet came out.
General WALKER. That identifies the next room where the bullet went
through the wall by my desk and came out in the next room. The bullet
was picked up lying on a piece of the literature there.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have here a photograph which I am marking as
Walker Exhibit No. 1, and which I will initial for the purpose of
identification, and ask you to do the same so that we have no confusion
as to the identification of that picture.
(General Walker initials.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Now are you able to tell from looking at that picture
what it shows?
General WALKER. Yes; I can identify this picture. It is the backyard
of my house at 4011 Turtle Creek. It is a view from a position taken
near the west fence line, taken of the rear of my house, camera pointed
east. It shows the fence running down on the left side between my
rented property, and the church property.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you see the room in which you were sitting when this
shot was fired at you in that picture. I call your attention to where
the police officer is standing. There is a police officer standing over
there in front of a window, isn't there?
General WALKER. I can see the corner of the house. The window is right
in here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have indicated that where the policeman is
standing in this Walker Exhibit No. 1, is part of the entrance to the
house, but that is not the room that you were sitting in at the time
the shot was fired at you? You were sitting in a room that is not even
visible in this picture, because it is behind some bushes and trees
that appear to the left foreground of the picture; is that correct?
General WALKER. That is correct. The policeman is to the left--to the
right. His position is to the right.
Mr. LIEBELER. As you face the picture?
General WALKER. Of the room I was sitting in.
Mr. LIEBELER. You can't actually see the window through which the shot
came in that picture?
General WALKER. Not in this picture, you can't see the window.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Dallas Police Department, of course, sent officers
out to investigate this after the shot was fired at you, did they not?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. You got out in the backyard and reviewed the
possibilities, to try and figure out what happened with them at that
time, and specifically I wonder----
General WALKER. Seems to me I talked to them in the room first and
showed them around. I believe I did. I can't recall whether they asked
me out or not. There wasn't much to tell them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to determine the spot from which it
appeared the shot had been fired?
General WALKER. We lined up the shot, the police did, and I noticed
they worked this whole area back here to the fence, and even went out
into the alley to find the lattice fence that sits right here.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the area immediately behind the picture?
General WALKER. Just behind the camera that took this picture.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; Walker Exhibit No. 1. Were you able to determine to
your satisfaction the place from which the shot was fired?
General WALKER. I was convinced there wasn't any doubt the shot was
fired about where this cameraman was standing, or a little bit behind
him and outside the lattice fence, probably firing through the fence
which had spaces in it, squares of about 4 to 6 inches.
Certainly the lineup of the holes in the two, in the window and in the
wall, gives the direction. The distance would be questionable to this
point, based on the information I have.
Mr. LIEBELER. I hand you a photograph that I have marked Walker Exhibit
No. 2, and I ask you to initial it on the back near my initials there.
(General Walker initials.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Now that in fact is a photograph, is it not, of the fence
to which you have just referred?
General WALKER. Yes; it is.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that the shot was probably from the other
side of that fence, behind the fence as we face it, and very likely
the rifle was rested on one of the slats and fired through it, is that
correct?
I suggested that this picture was taken from inside the yard. General
Watts pointed out it was very likely taken looking from the alley, so
if this picture had been taken at the time the man was shooting, he
would be in that picture very likely with his back toward the camera
with the rifle through the fence?
General WALKER. If he fired through the fence, he would very likely
have been right in this picture, that is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, when I look at Walker Exhibit No. 1, since
you have indicated you thought that the shot was fired somewhere
about where the camera was located when this picture was taken, or
slightly behind it on the other side of the fence, I have considerable
difficulty in that I can't see the window through which the shot went.
How could the shot have been fired from there?
General WALKER. You can sit in the house and turn off your lights and
look right out through the fence and all the areas in the fence. It is
just a question of lighting. The difficulty you are having here is a
question of lighting of the picture, but if you are looking from the
inside of the house, you see that fence in many places, all places.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that this picture which was obviously taken at night
with a flash attachment does not give a true picture of the situation?
General WALKER. Not at all, because you can't see the house, and that
is why the picture with the policeman in it is so hard to identify.
Windows don't show there. There is a whole glassed-in porch to the
left of the policeman, as you look at this picture. There is a 5 by 6
glassed window there with a back porch that sticks out a little bit
that doesn't show.
Then there is a window beside that porch in the room I was sitting in.
Well, delete that. I don't think the cooler was in the window at that
time, but from that window, there is a space of 6 or 8 feet. Then you
come to the window that was fired through, and then there is 2 or 3
feet to the corner of the house.
Then referring back to the picture we referred to, the policeman was
in, you see the dark alley going down beside the house between the
house and the fence, which is the north side, in general, of the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. That picture, being Walker Exhibit No. 1.
General WALKER. But I don't see how you could take a picture and see
less of the house, and it is definitely because of the lighting in the
picture and everything dark. The whole house is dark under the light,
the way that picture was taken, so that you see very little of the
house except the policeman, what he has of the light coming out behind
him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Right. Now did you make any sudden movement on or about
the time that shot was fired?
General WALKER. None that I was aware of; no. Just moving with a pencil
and thoroughly engrossed in my income tax.
Mr. LIEBELER. How far is it from where you were sitting to the fence
where we think the shot was fired from? How many feet?
General WALKER. I would say 100 feet. I would say between 100 and 120
feet.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever say in words or substance after this shot
was fired at you that the guy must have been a lousy shot? That sounds
like something you might say, doesn't it?
General WALKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember saying that?
General WALKER. But I will tell you what I did think. I think I said
that, right. The police asked me to sit down. You want me to tell you?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
General WALKER. The police asked me to sit down when I got there and
they went through the motions of lining up the shot from inside and
outside.
And one policeman said, "He couldn't have missed you." And one said, a
lieutenant I believe it was, said, "It was an attempted assassination."
And I said, "What makes you call it that?" And he said, "Because he
definitely was out to get you."
And I said, "Your remark sounds like a natural remark." But as I later
was analyzing the thing, he couldn't see either with a scope or without
a scope. He couldn't see from his position any of the lattice work
either in the windows or in the screens because of the light. It would
have looked like one big lighted area, and he could have been a very
good shot and just by chance he hit the woodwork.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which he did in fact?
General WALKER. Which he did, and there was enough deflection in it to
miss me, except for slivers of the bullet, the casing of the bullet
that went into my arm laying on the desk--slivers of the shell jacket.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 2
and ask you if you recognize the scene in that picture?
General WALKER. Yes; I identify this picture looking approximately
south down the alley, taken from about the entrance of where the
alley enters the church, a few steps short of where the alley enters
the church parking area. It is facing approximately south. Shows the
back entrance to my back yard and the tree and my garbage can and the
lattice fence on the west.
Mr. LIEBELER. The alley that runs down there is the alley that runs
directly behind your house, isn't that correct?
General WALKER. That is correct. And the direction we are looking is
the direction in which it connects and joins Avondale Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that object in the background that looks
like a building maybe under construction?
General WALKER. That is the bigger apartment house down south of me.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No.
1003, that is a copy of Exhibit No. 1003, and ask you if that larger
apartment building shown in the right background of that picture is not
in fact the same building that is shown as being under construction in
Commission Exhibit No. 2?
General WALKER. As well as I can identify it, it looks like the same
building.
Mr. LIEBELER. Looking further at Exhibit No. 1003, there is a house
that is circled and indicated by the letter "A." That is, in fact, your
house, is it not?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the street marked "E" is Turtle Creek Boulevard?
General WALKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, the whole picture is an aerial view of the
general vicinity of your house and the apartment building, is it not?
General WALKER. That is correct. And "H" would be Avondale.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's right. And "G" is Irving Street?
General WALKER. That I don't know. Probably is. The church alley shows
up here going into Turtle Creek.
Mr. LIEBELER. Point that out to me, would you please?
General WALKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is a little street that runs right between your house
and the big building immediately next to your house just outside the
circle?
General WALKER. Which is the Mormon Church.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is the church, is that correct?
General WALKER. And the car was right here I referred to.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just turning from the church alley?
General WALKER. Just turning here, and turning this direction.
Mr. LIEBELER. Turning left up Turtle Creek?
General WALKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a document, a picture which is a copy of
Commission Exhibit No. 5 and ask you if you recognize the scene
portrayed in that picture?
General WALKER. I recognize my house in this picture.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anything else? Specifically, I draw your
attention to the automobile that is shown in there.
General WALKER. I do not recognize the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Charles Klihr?
General WALKER. Would you spell it again?
Mr. LIEBELER. I will spell it right in just a minute. K-l-i-h-r. 2046
Rosebud Street, Irving, Tex. Do you know that man?
General WALKER. Not that spelling. I know a Charles Clyr. As I know the
spelling, it is C-l-y-r.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does he live out in Irving?
General WALKER. I think he does.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize his address?
General WALKER. I wouldn't recognize his address. I don't recognize
that address. That could or couldn't be it.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about that car, do you recognize that as his car?
General WALKER. I don't recognize that car.
Mr. LIEBELER. This gentleman that we may be talking about, we may be
talking about the same man, is a volunteer worker for you from time to
time?
General WALKER. If it is the one I am referring to, he is in and out
quite often, right. He and his wife have helped me quite a bit.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you aren't able to identify that car as being his?
General WALKER. No; I am not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does that car appear to be a 1957 Chevrolet? Or aren't
you able to tell by looking?
General WALKER. I am not able to tell. I am not very good on cars.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you indicate that to the very far left of this
photograph, Commission Exhibit No. 5, through these bushes there is a
window, and that is the window through which the shot was fired, is
that correct?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is the window immediately left of the gasmeter there
as you look at the picture?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any doubt that that is the back of your
house?
General WALKER. None at all. That is the back of the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen that picture before, have you?
General WALKER. No; I haven't.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is a copy of Commission
Exhibit No. 3. The photograph that I refer to is set forth in this
copy, and I refer specifically to the one denominated P-1 and ask you
if you recognize the scene portrayed therein.
General WALKER. Yes; I recognize that as the back of my house, a
portion of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have another photograph I have marked Walker Exhibit
No. 3, and I ask you to initial that, if you would, for the purpose of
identification.
General WALKER (initials). Can I look at it?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, please. That is a picture of the back of your house
too, isn't it?
General WALKER. Yes; it is.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have shown you another picture which is Walker Exhibit
No. 4, and I ask you to initial that, and ask you if that isn't in fact
a picture of the alley behind your house.
General WALKER (initials). Yes; that is a picture of the alley looking
south toward the same apartment building we referred to before, down
to where the alley connects with Avondale showing the back fence and
the entrance into my backyard. I believe the picture is taken at a
different date from the other one we referred to, because the fence has
been changed behind the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. That apartment is completed in the picture?
General WALKER. That's right. There was work on the fence in the other
house and, also, the apartment building is in further advanced stage of
construction.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, it looks to be completed in Walker Exhibit No.
4, does it not, the apartment building?
General WALKER. Yes; it does.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a series of photographs which are copies
of Commission Exhibits Nos. 998, 999, 1000, 1002, and 1004, and ask you
if each and every one is not, in fact, an aerial view of the general
vicinity of your home and surrounding area, and if the identification
of landmarks in those pictures, insofar as you can tell, is correct.
General WALKER. 998 is identification of my home. 1000 would certainly
include the area of my home. It is hard to identify the exact house
marked "A".
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that big old apartment building is in there in 1000?
General WALKER. That is correct. So it is bound to include the area of
my home; 1002 is the area of my home, and it indicates my house; 1004
certainly includes the area of my home, and it would be very difficult
without further study to definitely identify that as my home. They all
include the area of my home. My home definitely is in those pictures.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't see any obvious mistakes, at least, as far as
the identification and the symbols on the pictures are concerned?
General WALKER. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to the record on this Klihr, it does appear,
in fact, to be K-l-i-h-r.
General WALKER. Why don't we ring the house and establish that that is
correct. LA 1-4415.
(General Watts called on phone and confirmed it was K-l-i-h-r.)
General WALKER. What is it?
General WATTS. K-l-i-h-r.
General WALKER. All right; that is the original spelling you had?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
General WALKER. OK; that is correct. It is Charles Klihr.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Robert Surrey?
General WALKER. Yes, I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has Mr. Surrey discussed with you the fact that on June
3, 1964, he was interviewed by an agent of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation and shown a picture, or a copy of a picture similar to
Commission Exhibit No. 5, which showed this automobile behind your
house with the license plate obliterated on it? Did he tell you he had
been asked about that?
General WALKER. He told me about a picture being shown to him of the
back side of my house, and I believe he referred to it showing some
automobile or automobiles being behind the house, but I don't remember
any reference to that car or the hole in it. There wasn't any reference
to that car, if that is a hole in the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. I represent to you that Commission Exhibit No. 5 that we
have here is a copy of an original photograph, which in fact had a hole
torn in there right where the black part is on the car. The original
picture itself has a hole right through there.
General WALKER. Then it is not a hole in the car?
Mr. LIEBELER. No; it is a hole in the original photograph, of which
this thing I show you now is a copy.
General WALKER. Oh, I see.
Mr. LIEBELER. I thought exactly what you thought the first time I
looked at it; that that was a hole in the car. It is not. It is a hole
in the picture.
General WALKER. He referred to being shown photographs with the back of
the premises and the car or something back there.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember him telling you that he was able
to identify this as Charles Klihr's car?
General WALKER. No; I don't remember that he identified the car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I understand that Mr. Surrey saw two men in the
vicinity of your house shortly before April 10, 1963, acting in a
manner that he regarded as suspicious. Did he report that to you at or
about that time?
General WALKER. He has reported that to me, and I don't remember the
date on which he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it prior to the time that the shot was fired at you?
General WALKER. I can't recall.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of the fact, if it is a fact,
that Surrey had seen two men out there in an automobile that didn't
have any license plate on it?
General WALKER. Yes; I do. I knew. He told me that he had come toward
my house and noticed a car, as I remember, parked on Avondale, and he
went on by or backed up or something and got out and came behind the
car and saw two men moving around in the area somewhere in the alley in
the back part of my house. Then he followed that car. They went down to
the center of town, and he lost them. I would suspect that he told me
that the next morning, if not that night.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether or not you reported that to the
police?
General WALKER. Yes; that was called in to the police. As I recall,
that was. I believe there is a report at the house that it was called
in to the police. As I recall, it was, and I told them what we knew
about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. As you reflect on that event, do you recall it was called
in to the police prior to the time the shot was fired?
General WALKER. As I reflect, it must have been called in either that
night or the next morning. I don't recall the exact time, but the
police record will show it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make the call yourself, or did someone else do
that, if you remember?
General WALKER. As I recall, I made it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what kind of response you got from the
Dallas Police Department?
General WALKER. Seemed normal. Wasn't upset about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, subsequent to April 10, 1963, of course, the Dallas
Police Department conducted an investigation of the attack on you; is
that not right?
General WALKER. Will you repeat that?
Mr. LIEBELER. The Dallas Police Department investigated this attack on
you that occurred on April 10, 1963? They sent men out there and talked
to you and took some pictures?
General WALKER. Oh, subsequent to it; yes. Subsequent, right; they did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they discuss with you any possible suspects that they
might have come up with, any leads they had on it as to who might have
been involved?
General WALKER. I don't recall that they did. They may have, and I may
have told them who had been in and about around the house, or who had
worked for me. I don't recall this definitely, but the records will
probably show.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any records like that here?
General WALKER. No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the name Lee Harvey Oswald come up in connection with
this investigation in any way at that time?
General WALKER. No; it didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know William Duff?
General WALKER. I know who William Duff is under that name; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, he lived in your house for a while and worked
for you as a batman?
General WALKER. Yes; that is what he calls himself; right.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first make the acquaintance of Mr. Duff?
General WALKER. He walked in the house late one evening and said he was
out of a job and out of a place to sleep, and I put him up and put him
to work. The date I would have to get for you; I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, was it sometime prior to April 10, 1963, in any
event?
General WALKER. Yes; it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Duff living in your house at the time of the attack
on you?
General WALKER. No; he wasn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. About how long had he been gone; can you remember?
General WALKER. As general figures, I would say he worked about 3
months for me, and he had been gone a month or two. I would have to
verify these.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the fact is that you suspected, possibly, that Duff
might have been involved in this attack on your life, didn't you?
General WALKER. I suspected that he might be involved.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you conducted an investigation of that possibility,
did you not?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with that investigation, two detectives
from General Watts' office, one, Kester, and one, Roberts, came down to
Dallas and engaged in an investigation, did they not?
General WALKER. They did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us about that, please?
General WALKER. They were in and out, as I remember, in the
investigation, and in contact with my house from time to time during
it, and even drove Duff around in a car, finally, and he explained how
he would have shot at me if he had intended to, or if he had any such
intentions.
General WATTS. I got a call--I don't remember the exact date--but I do
have a record of it. I got a call from Mrs. Kenecht in General Walker's
office to the effect that an anonymous telephone call came in from some
lady who advised Mrs. Kenecht that this boy Duff had been going with
the lady's daughter and had bragged to the daughter that he had been in
on the shooting at General Walker.
So I sent these two investigators whose names were just mentioned,
connected with our office. They are ex-detectives or policemen from the
Oklahoma City Police Department and do freelance investigating. I sent
them down here with a tape recorder to verify as much as they could
from Duff, because we were very apprehensive that he might take another
shot at Walker.
We couldn't get Duff to admit that he actually fired the shot, but he
professed to readiness to stage another attempt if someone would raise
$5,000. It is my recollection that the tape recording was turned over
to the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask: Were you, General Walker, generally familiar
with the events at the time, and reports were made to you about the
progress?
General WALKER. I was familiar with the progress of the investigation
and got a final copy of it. I thought it solved nothing, but Duff was
telling his usual lies.
Mr. LIEBELER. General Watts' description of these events is accurate,
to the best of your knowledge; is that correct?
General WALKER. That is correct, except that I do not agree with
General Watts' statement that Duff had implicated himself in the attack
on me by statements to the daughter of this woman who called Mrs.
Kenecht. My information is only to the effect that the girl's mother
was upset about her daughter's friendship with Duff. As far as I know,
she never said that Duff admitted being involved in the attack on me
that occurred on April 10, 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. General Watts, you indicated you had some additional
information on Mr. Duff.
General WATTS. Yes; one Friday evening--I could get the exact date--I
was dictating in my bedroom at home, and I looked up and there stood
Duff whom I hadn't seen since he had worked at General Walker's, but
whom we had investigated, and he told me a rather weird story.
He had gone to the Army and was stationed at Fort Sill, and immediately
after the assassination he was interrogated by personnel from the
Justice Department and was charged with fraudulent enlistment,
according to him. He had failed to enter on his enlistment papers that
he had worked for General Walker, and when it became known that he had
worked for General Walker, he was charged with fraudulent enlistment
along in December 1963, and his pay cut off.
He professed to me that he had been living at Fort Sill, although not
under arrest, but without pay since the previous December, and had
no funds, and was about to be discharged. So in order to keep tab on
him, I arranged for him to get a job with a friend, Paul Blakeley, for
whom he worked for a short time, and later got him another job with
a contractor, W. H. Thompson, for whom he is, as far as I know, still
working. And after things get quieted down, I fully intend to see what
information I can get out of Duff, if you can depend on what he says,
and if he knows anything, he has never told anybody up to this date.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, the inference to be drawn is that Duff is an
extremely unreliable individual, so far as telling the truth?
General WALKER. I wouldn't believe anything the boy would say unless it
was verified.
General WATTS. I did call Fort Sill and talk to the judge advocate, who
raised considerable question as to the accuracy of the story Duff told
me. And frankly, I wouldn't believe a word the boy would say unless I
have absolute verification of it. But I am at least suspicious that he
knows something that he has never told.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as the attempt on General Walker is concerned?
General WATTS. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, what makes you think that he does know
something about that?
Let me say this. Since this is almost a friendly, if I may say so,
session, I assume that we can take it that the remarks that you are
making will be under oath, is that correct? And you will swear to that?
General WATTS. Yes.
General WALKER. They should be identified as that of my attorney
because they don't necessarily agree with my opinion.
General WATTS. My opinion and General Walker's don't frequently jibe.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let us swear you. Do you solemnly swear that the
testimony you have given and you will give throughout the rest of this
deposition will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
General WATTS. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you indicated that you had some belief that Duff
might know something about the attempt on General Walker that he hasn't
told you. Do you have any basis for that?
General WATTS. My only basis is suspicion. First; his generally
unreliable nature. Second; I have never fully satisfied myself as
to the accuracy of the investigation these boys made where Duff
undoubtedly had made some kind of an alarming statement to this unknown
woman who called in. We have never been able to locate or identify her.
I have never reconciled his tape recorder statement that he had not
shot at Walker, but would do so for $5,000, with the apparent statement
to this unidentified woman's daughter that he had actually fired at
Walker. In other words, we could never verify that by our investigation.
Mr. LIEBELER. General Walker, were you satisfied, or did you reach a
conclusion as a result of these investigations or any other way, as to
Duff's involvement in the attack made on you on April 10. Do you think
he knows anything about it that he hasn't told us, or do you think he
was involved in it in any way? Do you have any evidence to indicate
that he was?
General WALKER. I also know that I wouldn't believe 90 percent of what
Duff said about anything. I have come to no conclusion even after the
investigation that he was even involved. Knowing Duff; I felt that if
the investigators were a little bit naive, they got tricked more than
Duff got tricked.
Mr. LIEBELER. But these investigators weren't able to develop anything
that led you to think that Duff had been involved in the attack on you
made on April 10, 1963, isn't that right?
General WALKER. It led me to believe what?
Mr. LIEBELER. That Duff had been involved in the attack on you.
General WALKER. According to his fantastic stories, it might lead to
the belief that he had been involved, like my attorney says, but Duff
is so fantastic that I don't believe a word he says.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any evidence other than the statement that
Duff is alleged to have made to his girl friend that would indicate
that he was involved in the attack on you? Do you have any indication
that he was involved in it at all?
General WALKER. None; other than, as I remember what he has stated, and
there is something else. And based on Duff's nature.
Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't believe what he said?
General WALKER. He never appeared a vicious fellow, and I rather liked
the guy for what he was supposed to do at the time I had him, until I
realized that nothing was truthful that he said, and I felt that he had
left feeling friendly, actually, except that he left by having been
ushered to the door while I was gone and told not to come back.
General WATTS. He truly professes to feeling very friendly to
General Walker. I have never confronted him with the fact that the
investigators have a tape recording that he was anxious to get a
shot at Walker for $5,000, but I am still suspicious that Duff knows
something that he hasn't told.
General WALKER. It is certainly true, to further my counsel's
statement, that Duff certainly lived in the area of night clubs and
beer joints and so forth, and he could still know something and not be
involved himself.
General WATTS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, have you any information of any kind that would
indicate or suggest who actually took that shot at you?
General WALKER. None; other than the indications that have been brought
up here with respect to Duff. He did appear back in my house at one
time after this, just walked in. Which I don't bring up now as an idea
that that gave further indication that he did. I can't seem to recall
exactly what the purpose of his visit was, but I wasn't very warm
toward him and he was soon out the door after talking to him maybe 5 or
10 minutes.
Other than Duff and what we have covered here, the only indications of
anybody that might have taken a shot at me is what has been said and
expressed by other people regarding Oswald's connection in the case of
shooting at me.
Mr. LIEBELER. So aside from Duff and aside from what has been made
public as regards Oswald's involvement, you have no other leads or
conclusions or ideas as to who might have taken the shot at you on
April 10, 1963?
General WALKER. No; I am pretty well blocked by you all and the fact
that--not particularly you, as the FBI having taken the information
on the case from the city police, and it is difficult to find who is
now responsible for an open case, and also the lack of contact with my
counsel at any time regarding Oswald's position in this from the time
the shot was fired or even after the events of November 22, 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, of course, all that information will be made public
eventually, and aside from that, the basic thrust of my question at
this moment is, you don't have any other information other than what we
have already covered here that would give us any ideas as to who might
have done that, is that correct?
General WALKER. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any basis for believing that there was any
connection between Duff and Oswald?
General WALKER. None at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never even heard of Oswald?
General WALKER. Only with respect to what we have passed over with
regard to what we have said about Duff, and we have heard said about
Oswald. I have no information of Oswald's name ever being mentioned
in my house, and I had never heard of the name with regard to the
individual we are referring to at any time since I have been in Dallas
or any other time.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never heard of any connection until the
assassination?
General WALKER. Until his activities of November 22. More specifically,
no knowledge or no reference of any indication that Duff was in any way
connected with Oswald. I still think that the information that Kirk
Coleman gave is very relevant to this case, and I would like to say as
far as I am concerned, our efforts are practically blocked.
I would like to see at least a capability of my counsel being able to
talk to these witnesses freely and that you or the FBI give a release
on them with respect to being able to discuss it as it involves me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, has your counsel attempted to talk to Mr. Coleman
and Mr. Coleman refused to talk to him? So far as I know, this
Commission----
General WATTS. I never tried to talk to Coleman.
General WALKER. The word we got is, the boy has been told not to say
anything. That may not be the direct information, but I think you will
find it about what the situation is.
General WATTS. This is off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. The last question was, has your counsel attempted to talk
to Mr. Coleman and Mr. Coleman refused to talk to him?
General WALKER. No; I have no knowledge of my counsel trying to speak
to him, but I was told by others that tried to get to him that he has
been advised and wasn't talking, and that he had been advised not to
talk.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was that, General Walker, do you remember?
General WALKER. Oh, it's been at least 3 or 4 months ago.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who told him he wasn't supposed to talk to
anybody?
General WALKER. No; I don't. It is my understanding some law
enforcement agency in some echelon. But the important thing we would
like to find out is who is responsible for the open case, if it is
back in the hands of the city police or if it is still held under
advisement, and as soon as it got back into their hands, we can go to
dealing with them. Until it does, under your requirements, if there
are such requirements, the question becomes when can we get into this
further?
Mr. LIEBELER. I want the record to indicate that the Commission, to my
knowledge at least, and I think I would know about it, has never told
anybody not to talk to you about the attack on you in any way, shape or
form whatsoever, and has no intention of doing so. That is point 1.
Point 2 is that the Commission is conducting its own investigation into
this matter, and has requested the Federal Bureau of Investigation to
conduct an investigation into the matter, which it has done at the
request of the Commission, and the report will include a finding one
way or the other as to whether Oswald was the man who was involved in
this attack on you.
General WALKER. It will have such a finding?
Mr. LIEBELER. It certainly will, and will be a complete disclosure.
General WALKER. Then it must be handling the case, because we have
information that the city police turned all the information over to the
FBI and there was nothing for us to deal with them about.
My counsel went to the city police on this. Then the FBI definitely
said that they had turned it over to the Commission, and then they were
under whatever wraps there were, but wraps that kept them from carrying
on any development of the cases.
Mr. LIEBELER. No activity of this Commission has ever foreclosed any
other law enforcement agency from doing anything that they saw fit to
do. The FBI conducts its investigation in any way it sees fit, and the
Dallas Police Department does the same thing.
General WALKER. I think we should have a round robin discussion with
the city police, FBI, and yourself, if you all have what you have
stated, so that we will understand this too, and place this case and
the Warren Reynolds case back where they should be. I would think that
we should get together to establish who is responsible for the open
cases in the city of Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the President's Commission on the investigation of
the assassination of President Kennedy is certainly not responsible for
open cases in the city of Dallas. That your counsel will tell you. That
is perfectly obvious.
General WALKER. Then I want to go on the record that the city police
has misused the Commission and also the FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have no knowledge of that.
General WALKER. I think it is--I can't straighten it out and neither
can my counsel. I think it is perfectly obvious that somebody is
misusing somebody, the fact that we have no starting point and this is
an open case, and this is true with Warren Reynolds as well as myself.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am glad you brought that subject up. Tell us what you
know about that.
General WALKER. I certainly will.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before you do, I think I did hear the witness come in out
here.
Go ahead.
General WALKER. I would prefer you to question me on which way you want
me to discuss this case and I will answer what is necessary.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Warren Reynolds?
General WALKER. I do know Warren Reynolds.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him?
General WALKER. My first contact with Warren Reynolds was by telephone,
I would say sometime in the area of 8 or 10 days after he was shot
through the temple. I thought I had the date of that, or the press
release, but I didn't seem to bring it with me. But you probably have
that date.
It doesn't make much difference. I would say sometime I saw a notice in
the paper when it came out to the effect that Warren Reynolds had been
shot in the head and a Latin type was seen running away.
I left on a trip and came back to the house, and I was curious about
Warren Reynolds and I asked somebody in the house to call and see about
Reynolds, and was told to call the hospital.
I found out that day finally after calling out to his place of
business, found out he was out walking around that afternoon. I think
we found out he had just been released from the hospital that day. I
would say that was about 10 days from the time he was fired at.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have the date of that?
General WALKER. That was approximately January 23 or January 24, 1964,
and within a day or two I had a telephone conversation over there.
I talked to Warren Reynolds finally and he said he wanted to talk to me
or said he would talk to me, and I asked him the circumstances of what
had happened to him.
Within a day or two I would say--I said, "If you want to see me, you
can." And he came to the house and discussed what had happened to him
with regard to being shot through the head, how it all happened, and I
have been quite interested in his case.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, am I correct in understanding that you initiated the
contact with Mr. Reynolds?
General WALKER. I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you seen him?
General WALKER. Sir?
Mr. LIEBELER. When was the first time you actually saw him in person,
if you ever did, and I believe that you did.
General WALKER. I don't remember the exact date, but a week after the
first telephone conversation, within a week or so after the first
telephone conversation, I believe he dropped by the house with his
brother.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you seen him in person altogether?
General WALKER. I believe he has been in the house twice.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have also had various telephone conversations with
him, isn't that right, General Walker?
General WALKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you talked on the telephone with him yesterday
noon, didn't you?
General WALKER. Very likely.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether you did?
General WALKER. I talked to him yesterday, yes. I don't remember the
exact time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us the substance, the general substance
of your conversation with him over this period that you have been in
contact with him.
General WALKER. I was very much interested in his case and why they
would have, why there would have been an attempt on his life, since,
according to his story, you might say he was the last one to see Oswald
in the domestic state after he had killed Police Officer Tippit.
I have had these conversations with him to get all the details I could
regarding why he thought he was shot at or who shot at him and what the
police were doing about it, and how he felt about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you the first time that he talked to
you that he thought there was some connection between the attack on him
and his observation of Oswald?
General WALKER. Pardon?
Mr. LIEBELER. Following the time that Oswald shot Officer Tippit?
General WALKER. Will you repeat the question?
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Reynolds tell you that he thought there was some
connection between the attack on him and Oswald killing Tippit?
General WALKER. We discussed that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he thought there was a connection
between the two?
General WALKER. He seemed to think there might be.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think there is?
General WALKER. Yes; I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any evidence to indicate that there is?
General WALKER. I think there is a definite--I don't know that you
could call it evidence--but you can anticipate that people would like
to shut up anybody that knows anything about this case. People right
here in Dallas. And I don't think anybody knows or would have known at
the time after November 22 how much or how little Warren Reynolds knew.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, he doesn't know very much, does he?
General WALKER. He would become a very good example, regardless of what
he knew, to let everybody know that they better keep their mouths shut.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, wouldn't it be fair to say that that is pure
speculation on your part?
General WALKER. Yes, but everything is speculation until you prove it
or disprove it.
Mr. LIEBELER. But my basic problem is this, and I am not just trying to
harass you.
I want to know if you have any evidence or can give us some idea on
how to approach this problem to find out if there is any connection,
because the Commission would certainly like to know if there is.
General WALKER. I would be much interested in the hanging of the woman
in the prison here in the cell that said she had worked in the Carousel
Club, her only claim to fame, who I believe was the same woman, as I
remember my information at this point, was the same woman that was
driven over to this used car lot where the Reynolds brothers worked.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, in point of fact, your primary source of
information in connection with this whole thing is the newspaper story
written by Bob Considine; isn't that right? That is where you first got
all this information?
General WALKER. He did cite this case; that is correct. That was one of
the pieces of information I had.
Mr. LIEBELER. You cited from this newspaper story and the statements
that Warren Reynolds has made to you, and your observations about what
you have been told about the facts regarding this stripper.
Are these the only things that led you to believe, plus your other
statement about keeping people quiet, are the only things that led you
to believe there might be some connection between these two events?
Isn't that a fair statement?
General WALKER. It would seem significant to me from Reynolds' story
that he was only checked by the law enforcement agencies 2 days before
he was shot, that somebody was watching what was going on.
There are many things that would make me go into a lot of leads which
no doubt make you all go into a lot of leads. Probably what you already
know, but just to say that one particular thing is the only thing
that makes me curious about this attempt on Warren's life as the one
out of a hundred of used car lot operators in Dallas, to attempt the
assassination of Warren who had seen Oswald, makes this quite unusual.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want you to tell us right now on the record all of the
things that you can think of that led you to believe that there is some
connection between these two events, in addition to the ones that you
have already suggested.
General WALKER. I have just referred to one.