The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 11:15 a.m., on July 23,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite familiar with the proceedings of the
Commission and with the Commission's rules governing the taking of
testimony, since you have given testimony perhaps longer than any
other witness we have had, so we won't go through all the rituals of
explaining the purposes of why I am here, and I will come right to the
point.
In the testimony that you gave before the Commission, Mr. Jenner asked
you about the events of the evening of November 21, 1963, as regards
the relations between Lee and Marina. There was also considerable
testimony about their whereabouts and about the possibility that Oswald
wrapped the rifle up that evening, but I am not particularly concerned
about that. I do want to focus on your impression of the relations
between Lee and Marina at that time.
As I recall, the preceding Sunday you had called Oswald at his
roominghouse and asked for Lee Oswald and, of course, were not able to
talk to him because he was living there under the alias of O. H. Lee.
As I understand, on the following Monday Oswald called Marina, as was
his custom, and they had a considerable discussion over the use of the
alias, and after that conversation, or conversations that took place on
Monday, Lee did not call Marina again that week; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That's my impression.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how many times Oswald called Marina on
Monday?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, he called nearly every evening while he was working
during the week--he usually called around 5:30, just to talk.
Mr. LIEBELER. But specifically, on this Monday following the Sunday
on which you called the roominghouse and asked for him, the Monday on
which they had the argument about his use of the alias, do you remember
how many times he called and talked to Marina on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. On that particular Monday--only once, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. Only one time?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you, after she talked to him that Monday,
what the conversation was about?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you?
Mrs. PAINE. She said--and I believe I have testified to this--that
she was clearly upset. You are asking me what she told me of the
conversation?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I, of course, could tell that she was upset while talking
to him, although I didn't understand much of what she said to him, as
I was in the same room. She said that he was living under a different
name; was angry that we had tried to call him and she said that this is
not the first time she had felt between two fires, and I judge that she
meant between a loyalty to him and a feeling that what he was doing was
not right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say that this wasn't the first time that she felt
between two fires, or did she use an expression that "this isn't the
first time I felt 22 fires?"
Mrs. PAINE. "Between two fires," is my memory on that. Twenty-two
fires? This is a common expression in Russian; it's like between the
Devil and the deep blue sea.
Mr. LIEBELER. Between two fires, you mean?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the only problem that I have is that on page 45 of
volume 3, of the page proofs your testimony indicates that.
Mrs. PAINE. That's why I would like to read my testimony. That's just
incorrect. Between 22 fires--no, no--this is not it. This should be,
"This is not the first time I felt between two fires," which, as I say,
is like our expression, "Between the Devil and the deep blue sea."
Mr. LIEBELER. I will correct the page proofs to reflect that on your
previous testimony.
Mrs. PAINE. It occurs twice there, I see.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Did she tell you of any detail of what the argument
was about--what the situation was?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, she said that she felt he should not be using an
alias. It wasn't contained in anything that was said, but I got the
feeling that she was upset with his doing this or thinking that he
should or could do it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you whether or not Oswald had told her why
he was using the alias?
Mrs. PAINE. She did not tell me anything about why.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any ideas as to why he might be doing it?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I did suppose the possibility--it is possible that he
was worried about it being found out at the School Book Depository that
he had a Russian wife. He did ask me to ask Mrs. Randle to ask Frazier
not to ask questions, not to discuss the fact that he had a Russian
wife with the coworkers at the School Book Depository. I think he felt
that, if this was known, it would also become known that he went to
Russia and the circumstances of that, and he felt, and this was a sheer
guess on my part, and I judge that he felt this would make his job
tenure unsure.
Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, you do say, however, that Oswald did ask
you to ask Mrs. Randle to ask Wesley Frazier not to talk about Oswald's
Russian wife at the School Book Depository; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right; so that my impression is supported to that
extent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask Mrs. Randle to ask Mr. Frazier to do that?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not she did?
Mrs. PAINE. She said she had already discussed it and she judged that
they would not be talking about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know whether Mrs. Randle ever specifically
mentioned it to Frazier after you talked to her?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I don't know that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when Oswald asked you to do that?
Mrs. PAINE. It was very shortly after he got the job--it was in the
first week, I would say.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you that she was angry with Oswald for
using this alias?
Mrs. PAINE. It was clear that she was angry--on the face of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was clear to you on Monday after the conversation
she had with Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, of course, did not call Marina at any time during
the rest of that week. Did you and Marina discuss the reasons for this?
Mrs. PAINE. We didn't discuss reasons. She did say on Wednesday, is my
recollection, that she said, "He thinks he's punishing me," after I
told her the fact that he was not calling as he usually did, and her
comment was, "He thinks he's punishing me."
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Marina continued to remain angry with
Oswald throughout that week for his use of the alias?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think she continued to remain angry--no. We did
briefly discuss why he came on Thursday, with one another, after his
arrival.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get to that, what was your impression of the
relations, if Marina didn't tell you, between Marina and Oswald prior
to the evening of Thursday, November 21?
Mrs. PAINE. They had a good many arguments and occasional heated words,
and I felt this was--well, that Marina is not one to maintain a feeling
of anger--I don't know about that.
Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that Marina is not one to maintain a
feeling of anger? What is the basis for that judgment on your part?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I have very little basis. Perhaps--she did write
me during the summer, and you have that correspondence, saying that
things were better when she didn't argue, and that may be the outward
circumstances that I'm talking about. She certainly was cordial to Lee
when he arrived on Thursday, and relations were normal between them, I
would say.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's really what I want to come to and I want to ask
you about, and you did say that on page 47 of volume 3 in your previous
testimony. Mr. Jenner asked you as regards the evening of November 21,
"Was there a coolness between them?"
Mrs. PAINE. He went to bed very early. She stayed up and talked
with me some, but there was no coolness that I noticed. He was
quite friendly on the lawn as we----
Then, Mr. Jenner said, "I mean coolness between himself and--between
Lee and Marina."
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they
seemed warm, like a couple making up a small spat. I should
interject one thing here, too, that I recall as I entered the
house and Lee had just come in. I said to him, "Our President
is coming to town."
You indicated specifically here that he was quite friendly on the lawn
and that you noticed no coolness between them. Now, what was Marina's
response to all this, the best you can recall?
Mrs. PAINE. You recall that he was there when I arrived from the
grocery store. They had already met. Her response was really to me, as
he had gone on into the house. She mentioned to me her embarrassment
that he hadn't called and asked if he could come.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about Marina's response to Lee, did I understand
from reading your previous testimony that both you and Marina were
of the opinion that Oswald had come home that night to make up the
argument that Marina and Lee had had on the telephone on Monday; isn't
that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald acted in a manner that led you to believe that
he had come home specifically to make up the argument?
Mrs. PAINE. That it was at least conciliatory.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did Oswald do that led you to believe that he wanted
to make up the argument? Did he do anything different out of the
ordinary?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I would say just the contrary, that he proceeded as he
might normally have done on a Friday night coming home or coming to the
house for the weekend. I don't think--I would be certain that he made
no apology, just from my judgment of the man.
Mr. LIEBELER. At least, you didn't hear him make any apology?
Mrs. PAINE. I certainly didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him ask Marina to move into Dallas with him?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that he might have asked her to do that?
Mrs. PAINE. She told me, and it should be there, that he had expressed
to her--she told me the night of the 22d that he had expressed to her
his wish that they could get together as soon as possible and have
their apartment together. The setting in which she told me this left
me with the impression that she was confused and hurt that he could be
making a gesture toward the reestablishing of their family life when
at the same time he must have been thinking about doing something that
would necessarily destroy their family life. There was no indication to
her, in what she told me, that he meant for her to do it right away. I
have since heard this by rumor.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I'm going to read some more of the testimony to you
momentarily, some of Marina's testimony, and I want to discuss it with
you, but there is one bit of it particularly that I am confused about
just from reading it and I get from it the possible inference and you
also, I believe, indicate on page 49 of your testimony, that on the
evening of the 21st you and Marina discussed plans for Christmas?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think it was then--I'm not positive that it was
that night.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any conversation between you and Marina to
the effect that Oswald was not to come back to Irving any more until
Christmas time?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, absolutely not.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was no indication that his pattern of coming on
weekends was to change in any manner?
Mrs. PAINE. No; we had previously talked in terms of their staying at
the house through Christmas and then the Oswalds getting an apartment
again when they had saved up a little money, around the first of the
year.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me read to you a part of the testimony that Marina
gave.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which, frankly, seems to me somewhat inconsistent with
the testimony that you have given about the events of this evening,
although perhaps, these things might have happened outside of your
presence and you were not aware of them. This appears at page 65 of
volume 1 of the hearings.
Mr. RANKIN. Did your husband give any reason for coming home on
Thursday?
This, of course, was on Thursday, November 21.
Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he was lonely because he hadn't come
the preceding weekend and he wanted to make his peace with me.
Mr. RANKIN. Did you say anything to him then?
Mrs. OSWALD. He tried to talk to me, but I would not answer him
and he was very upset.
Mr. RANKIN. Were you upset with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was angry, of course. He was not angry, he was
upset. I was angry. He tried very hard to please me. He spent
quite a bit of time putting away diapers and playing with the
children on the street.
Mr. RANKIN. How did you indicate to him that you were angry
with him?
Mrs. OSWALD. By not talking to him.
Mr. RANKIN. And how did he show that he was upset?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was upset over the fact that I would not answer
him. He tried to start a conversation with me several times,
but I would not answer and he said that he didn't want me to be
angry at him because this upsets him.
On that day he suggested that we rent an apartment in Dallas.
He said that he was tired of living alone and perhaps the
reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not
living together, that if I want to, he would rent an apartment
in Dallas tomorrow, that he didn't want me to remain with
Ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in Dallas. He
repeated this not once, but several times, but I refused. And
he said that once again I was preferring my friends to him and
I didn't need him.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. I said it would be better if I remained with Ruth
until the holidays, he would come and that we would all meet
together and this was better, because while he was living alone
and I stayed with Ruth, we were spending less money and I told
him to buy me a washing machine, because with two children it
became too difficult to wash by hand.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said he would buy me a washing machine.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you, that it would be better if he bought
something for himself, that I would manage.
Mrs. PAINE. I want to point out that she referred to his playing with
the children on the street, meaning outdoors--the phrase is the same in
Russian, that is to say, the translation--it can mean either outdoors
or on the street.
When I arrived, he had been there for at least, I will say, 15 minutes.
I arrived around 5:30 and a good deal of this might have happened prior
to then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time you came home?
Mrs. PAINE. Prior to the time I arrived--yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the next two sentences here I will read to you--two
or three sentences more.
Mr. RANKIN. Did this seem to make him more upset when you
suggested that he wait about getting an apartment for you to
live in?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and
watched television and then went to bed. I went to bed later.
It was about 9 o'clock when he went to sleep. I went to sleep
at about 11:30, but it seemed to me that he was not really
asleep, but I didn't talk to him.
I suggest that that testimony would indicate that there probably was a
considerable degree of coolness between the Oswalds that evening; would
it suggest that to you?
Mrs. PAINE. It would suggest that to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. At least that their relations would not be normal.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I might describe what I think normal is. I said I
thought their relations were fairly normal.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, was there usually a good deal of coolness between
them?
Mrs. PAINE. They would often have small arguments--he wanted potatoes,
or where was the ketchup level of arguments, which I felt just
reflected a tension between them that showed in this way.
Now, very little was said--I don't remember well, but it was not
uncommon for him to eat his meal and then leave the table before other
people did. I don't remember specifically, but it's possible he did
that night and go in to watch the television. In other words, his
efforts at being sociable or friendly even was never very great.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, specifically, the part of your testimony, of
course, that I have difficulty in reconciling with the testimony I have
just read is when Mr. Jenner asked you if you detected any coolness
between Marina and him and you responded, "I didn't notice any such
coolness. Rather, they seemed warm like a couple making up a small
spat."
How clear and how definite is your recollection of the events of that
evening? I can't possibly reconcile in my mind the testimony that
Marina gave with the notion that they looked like a couple that were
making up from a small spat, and as far as that goes you can't either.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I can't--that may be just my interpretation.
Mr. LIEBELER. After hearing Marina's testimony and reflecting on what
happened that night, do you think that this testimony is consistent
with what you remember having happened there that night?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I saw nothing of the argument she describes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I appreciate that.
Mrs. PAINE. I saw no continuing of it in the sense that they threw
barbs at each other later. I don't recall any such altercation, and
as I say, I just don't remember well enough whether it was that night
as he had on other nights--he ate and left the table without much
conversation--or just what happened. It was really my assumption, I
would say, that he was there to make up the quarrel over the telephone.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you specifically discussed that with Marina that
evening?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you both agreed that that was the reason he came
there?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. No; I don't mean that I specifically recall real
warmth being shown, but that his behavior was much as it often was and
I judged that he was there to make up for the fight in some way.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you also thought from observing Marina that she was
glad to have him make up the spat or that they had made the spat up?
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't see anything opposite to that, at least, so I was
left with my assumption unchallenged.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, as far as you know, the events that are described by
Marina's testimony that I have just read--could perfectly well have
happened.
Mrs. PAINE. It could perfectly well have happened--indeed--yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination, did you think about your
previous judgment that Oswald had come out there that evening to make
up the argument that he had with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. That's what I thought he must have come for.
Mr. LIEBELER. After hearing this testimony, as it occurred between
Marina and Lee that evening, do you think that could have had anything
to do with his attitudes and feelings the next day?
Mrs. PAINE. What you read of her testimony is news to me. I had no
idea what the tone was of any words that passed between them, and as I
say, all I heard that was in any way familiar to me, was that he had
asked her to take an apartment--nothing about it being right away. I
would say it could certainly have affected his thinking about it the
next day. It is conceivable even that he hadn't seriously thought about
shooting the President, but that would be sheer conjecture on my part.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a washing machine in your house?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina use it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. If I may say--that I am disturbed by what she said.
I was concerned all along in this arrangement that Lee not resent my
being--my offering a place for Marina, and what she said would do a
good deal to raise resentment in him, I would think.
Mr. LIEBELER. Marina, of course, was aware of the fact that you did not
want to conduct yourself in such a manner as to breed resentment on
Oswald's part with respect to his relations with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. We never discussed it explicitly. I probably would have if
my Russian had been better. She at one point said to him on a weekend
when he came out that my Russian was improving while his was getting
worse, and I was embarrassed to have her say this. I may have testified
to this, and just pointed out that I was getting more practice than he
at that time was, but my feeling was that this was a mistake on her
part in terms of his feelings to say that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she say that in front of him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that's why I spoke up immediately and said, "Well, you
know a lot more vocabulary than I did."
Mr. LIEBELER. Other witnesses have testified that Marina was not always
entirely considerate of Oswald's feelings in the presence of others.
Would you think that would be a fair statement?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I seldom saw them in the presence of others.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the presence of others--I mean yourself.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the incident you have just related, of course, is an
example.
Mrs. PAINE. I would say that it is an example and I am trying to
think of others that I can make a generalization. I can't make a real
generalization like that, and the reason I said, "In front of others,"
is because I do recall also, and I testified to this, that when they
first went down to New Orleans he got an apartment for her and I felt
he was very anxious that she like it, and her responses to him were
just simply not as enthusiastic as it was clear he had hoped. This was
not embarrassing in front of someone else in a sense it wasn't that
noticeable a thing, but I did feel that she wasn't trying very hard to
understand his hope to please her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it be a fair statement in your opinion that in
point of fact both of these people were more interested in tearing each
other down than they were in complementing each other or in trying
to accommodate themselves to each other or to work out some sort of
sincere relationship between themselves?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think you can be that curt about it. Marina never
did speak to me about wanting to leave him. She spoke, and this appears
in her letters too, of wishing to get along and spoke and wrote that
she was encouraged that relations seemed better. It seemed to me
that she accepted this as a situation a good deal short of ideal but
nonetheless the one she was in and one she was to work with.
Mr. LIEBELER. My characterization assumed a continuance of the
relationship. A simple solution perhaps to many situations like this,
of course, is for people to leave each other. But while they were
together--I'm not trying to get you to say that this is so--I have
never seen them together, of course.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But I have seen other people in whose behavior I might
find some similarities to the Oswalds or what I think the Oswalds'
situation might have been on the basis of the testimony we have
had. But also, you said before there was a general coolness between
them--Oswald would argue about the ketchup. You indicated something
about the ketchup.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Little things like this: Marina made a statement in front
of you that your Russian was getting better and Oswald's was getting
worse, and of course, the testimony that Marina gave herself about what
happened between them--I am wondering if you know Marina Oswald or
Oswald well enough to make a judgment about this sort of thing.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think I don't, and it's my guess that there was a
lot more argument and contention between them than what I saw, just
judging from what I have heard other people have said about it. I did
see them trade barbs or comments and in that sense the answer was "yes"
to your question of did they seem willing or out to hurt one another.
I can't remember just how you phrased it. They were certainly not
proceeding toward a mature relationship though----
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you about sexual
relations between herself and Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you testified about that previously?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you care to tell us?
Mrs. PAINE. I will say this, that it is part of what convinced me that
she was interested in helping the relationship. We talked about going
to Planned Parenthood to get contraceptive information there 6 weeks
after the birth of Rachel, that is, we were to go then for that. It
must have been myself that suggested that she discuss with one of the
counselors there her feelings about their sexual relationship.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you her feelings about the sexual
relationship?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I think I'll answer that simply--I don't think--let
me say that I feel that the exposure of her private life has been
considerable and should be limited to what is pertinent, and I think
what is pertinent is whether she thought she would stay with him or
not, and whether she planned to try to.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other witnesses have testified to us that Marina said in
front of Oswald and in front of them that Oswald was not a satisfactory
man in terms of sexual relations with her and that she did not obtain
satisfaction with him and that he was, as far as she was concerned,
much less than a man in his sexual relations with her, and I wonder if
she told you some of those things.
Mrs. PAINE. Surely nothing was said in his presence and I am shocked
to hear that she discussed it in his presence with other people, which
sounds like an attempt simply to injure him rather than an attempt to
help the situation that needed help. Now, no doubt my own attitudes
affect how a person talks to me. She may have sensed that I was
interested in a reconciliation, and their feelings, and would have
known that I would not have accepted this, or perhaps not wanted to put
it that way with respect to the denouncement of him, but it certainly
was not put that way.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she suggest to you that she was not satisfied with
her sexual relations with Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; she did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you anything about the separation that
occurred between herself and Oswald in the fall of 1962 in November?
Mrs. PAINE. She mentioned that she had once left him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you any of the details of it?
Mrs. PAINE. Probably very few of the details--I didn't know to whom she
went. She described him as being ashen and shocked when she actually
did walk out and then as pleading with her to come back, after a week,
which she did, and that he said everything would be different and that
she commented that it wasn't different and that was virtually all that
was said about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever mention George De Mohrenschildt to you?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, that's how I met her.
Mr. LIEBELER. You know De Mohrenschildt yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. I have met him once at a gathering where I first met the
Oswalds, so I knew that they knew them--they were the mutual friend
between the hosts of the evening party.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Glover?
Mrs. PAINE. And the Oswalds, but that's the only time I have seen the
De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever say anything to you about De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. PAINE. You mean that that might have been to whom she went?
Mr. LIEBELER. I just want to know if she ever discussed De
Mohrenschildt with you?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall her discussing a child. Now, this is what I am not
sure about, again my understanding of her Russian may have interfered.
She talked, I think, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt has a child or it may be
his, and that this person is married and has a child, but I never got
that straight as to who was married.
Mr. LIEBELER. She never discussed her own feelings about De
Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever indicate that De Mohrenschildt was in any
way involved or related to the separation that occurred between herself
and her husband?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. However, I would
like to ask you one more.
You have previously been questioned about and have heard about a
supposed telephone call that was supposed to have been made from
Michael Paine's office to your home shortly after the assassination,
and I do not represent that I have knowledge of such call--that such
call was ever made, but as you know, there were rumors to the effect
that this man and woman together in this conversation--that one of
them said that he wasn't really responsible for the assassination and
they both knew who was and I think both you and Michael have testified
about this before and have denied that there was any such telephone
conversation between you and anyone.
Was there a telephone conversation of any kind between you and Michael
between your residence and Michael's office on November 22 or November
23, 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. I have testified to the fact that Michael called--I don't
know whether it was from the cafeteria where he had been eating or more
likely from his office, to my home, on the 22d. He had learned of the
assassination at lunchtime and called to tell me to find out if I knew
it, and this was the entire substance of the conversation. I told him I
did know--from watching TV.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the only telephone conversation between those
two numbers on those 2 days that you know of?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever thought or had reason to believe that
Marina Oswald was responsible in any way for Oswald's assassinating the
President?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you never meant to suggest anything or never said
anything that would suggest that to Michael or anybody else?
Mrs. PAINE. No--never--that has absolutely not occurred to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of course; my question doesn't mean to imply that she is
so responsible. Had you and Michael ever discussed Oswald's alleged
attack on General Walker?
Mrs. PAINE. You mean since the assassination of President Kennedy--have
we discussed it?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes--at any time.
Mrs. PAINE. I suppose we have--I'm sure we have talked of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Michael ever indicate to you in any way that he had
knowledge of Oswald's attack on General Walker prior to November 22,
1963?
Mrs. PAINE. I would be absolutely certain he had not--his indications
were such that he had no such information.
Mr. LIEBELER. By that answer you mean to say, one, that he did not
indicate to you before the assassination that he did have knowledge,
and, two, after the assassination when it became known that Oswald had
been involved in the General Walker shooting, Michael didn't indicate
then that he had had any prior knowledge of it?
Mrs. PAINE. That's correct. Of course, it wasn't until several
days--more than a week after the assassination that something was
printed about Oswald there having been involved in an attempt on Walker.
Mr. LIEBELER. But as far as you know, Michael knew nothing about that
until he found out about it in the newspaper?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. When the Dallas police and other authorities came out to
your house, they eventually took all of Oswald's personal effects, did
they not?
Mrs. PAINE. No; they did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have anything left in your house that belonged to
Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No; they were eventually taken by Robert Oswald in company
with John Thorne and Jim Martin. That was probably the first weekend in
December, or at least 2 weeks after the assassination--more likely 3.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall what was among these things that Robert
Oswald and Mr. Martin took?
Mrs. PAINE. They took the clothes from the closet, boxes and things
that I did not look into. I have heard from the police that it also
included an old camera which they had to chase later and went up to
Robert Oswald's to find it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any newspapers or magazines or anything like
that, copies of The Militant or The Worker?
Mrs. PAINE. I did not see--most of what was done was what was put in. I
busied myself in the bedroom getting out what was to go--what was the
Oswald's property.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did, of course, receive copies of The Worker and
The Militant at your address?
Mrs. PAINE. I had seen that he received The Worker. I had never opened
The Militant. I noticed on November 23 when I looked at the pile of
second class mail and third class mail that was waiting for him to come
that weekend that it included a copy of The Militant--that was the
first I had noticed. This is after it had been in the newspaper.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember which issue of The Militant that was,
do you?
Mrs. PAINE. It must have been the current one.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to that?
Mrs. PAINE. I threw it away, along with The Worker and a Russian paper,
I guess. It was unopened and still in its jacket.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when it had come?
Mrs. PAINE. During the week--well, no; it could have been during the 2
weeks since he hadn't been there over the weekend.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, he did come up on Thursday night?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it wasn't discussed and it wasn't pointed out then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, how did he usually handle this problem with the
mail--he was accustomed to receiving these pieces--the issues of the
newspaper, at your address, wasn't he?
Mrs. PAINE. I handed it to him or laid them on the couch for him to
look at when he arrived on Friday night.
Mr. LIEBELER. But he hadn't looked at these newspapers that had come
during the period from his last visit to Thursday?
Mrs. PAINE. That's right; he had not been there.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't look at those on Thursday?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many newspapers did you throw away, do you remember
what they were?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I recall particularly The Militant and The Worker
and it seems to me there was the Russian Minsk paper too, but I'm not
certain.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there just one copy of The Militant?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't remember when it had come?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many copies of The Worker?
Mrs. PAINE. One.
Mr. LIEBELER. I believe that's all. Thank you for coming in.
Mrs. PAINE. All right.