*Mrs. OSWALD. Not this big size.
Mrs. OSWALD. This photograph--it was a smaller size.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. There was a license plate on this car.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that very clearly?
Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee showed it to me, I remember very distinctly that
there was a license plate on this car. When this business about General
Walker came up I would have remembered this black spot.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or the hole?
Mrs. OSWALD. Or the hole in the original--I would have remembered it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you remember, then, that the license plate was
actually on that car when you saw the picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. This black spot is so striking I would have remembered it
if it were on the photograph that Lee showed me or the FBI.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's address ourselves also, not just to the black spot
but to the possibility that they may have shown you the actual original
photograph on which there is no black spot, but which has a hole right
through the photograph.
Mrs. OSWALD. There was no hole in the original when they showed it to
me--I'm positive of it.
Mr. McKENZIE. All right, let me ask her a question.
Mrs. OSWALD. This is the first time I saw a black spot or have heard
about a hole in the original photograph.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Why does the Commission not ask me about this?
Mr. McKENZIE. Well, the Commission is asking you about it now, because
Mr. Liebeler represents the Commission.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I know it.
Mr. McKENZIE. Let me ask you--when Lee showed you this picture, which
is Commission Exhibit No. 5, had it been folded over?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. At that time did the car that appears in the picture, did
it have a hole in the picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. When the FBI or the Secret Service showed you this
picture, had it been folded?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. Who showed you the picture--the FBI or the Secret Service
or the Commission?
*Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI first and then the Commission.
Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at the time the Commission showed you the picture
in Washington, was there a hole shown in the picture where the car's
license plate would be?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know what happened to this picture, because
when the Commission showed me the picture there was not this spot here.
Mrs. OSWALD. If there was a hole, I would have asked them right away
why that hole is there or the black spot.
Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record, please.
(Discussion between Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Liebeler to the effect that
the picture might have been creased in the process of making a print
from the original photograph.)
Mr. McKENZIE. One more question--is this the first time that you
have seen the picture when there was a black spot in the back of the
automobile?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; the first time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen a picture like this that had a hole in
it?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think of anything else about this Walker incident
that you haven't already told the Commission that you think we should
know that you can remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think I have told all I know about it--I can't remember
anything else now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you at the time, Marina, that
Lee did make these careful plans, take pictures, and write it up in
a notebook, and then when he went out to shoot at General Walker he
left all that incriminating evidence right in the house so that if he
had ever been stopped and questioned and if that notebook had been
found, it would have clearly indicated that he was the one that shot at
General Walker?
Mrs. OSWALD. He was such a person that nothing seems peculiar to me for
what he did. I had so many surprises from him that nothing surprised
me. He may have wished to appear such a brave man or something.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that he really wanted to be
caught in connection with the Walker affair?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how to answer that--maybe yes and maybe no. I
couldn't read his mind.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that the picture that he asked you to take
when he was holding the rifle and the newspapers, and that he then
autographed for June, do you think that was connected with the Walker
thing at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think so, because it happened just before he went to
shoot General Walker. Then, I asked him why he was taking this silly
picture and he answered that he simply wanted to send it to the
newspaper.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Militant?
*Mrs. OSWALD. The Militant.
Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't attach any significance to what he said at the
time, but he added, "That maybe some day June will remember me." He
must have had something in his mind--some grandiose plans.
Mr. LIEBELER. You told the Commission that in November 1962, you stayed
with Anna Meller and with Mrs. Ford for 2 weeks?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; 1 week.
Mr. LIEBELER. One week with each person?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I think maybe I was 3 days at Anna Meller's house--yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you think you were with them altogether?
*Mrs. OSWALD. One week or 10 days.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you also told us that you went to Anna Meller's in a
taxicab?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you separated from Lee at any other time in the fall
of 1962 except this time?
Mrs. OSWALD. The only time I was separated from Lee, not because we
quarreled, but because I lived with Elena Hall in Fort Worth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you went to Anna Meller's one night in a taxicab?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you bring any of the things for the baby, the
furniture or your clothes or things like that to Anna Meller's?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. At no time?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I just take baby and bottle.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about the next day, did you get anything over to the
Meller's house the next day?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mrs. OSWALD. No; after a couple of days Anna Meller went and bought
some diapers for the baby, then, I wanted to take my things away from
Lee and George De Mohrenschildt took me in his car and we got the
things from the house.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you take the things then?
Mrs. OSWALD. To Anna Meller's house.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you stay at Anna Meller's house before
Mohrenschildt brought the things there?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Two or three days.
Mr. LIEBELER. And how long did you stay at Anna Meller's after De
Mohrenschildt brought your things there and before you went to Mrs.
Ford's?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Two more days.
Mr. LIEBELER. When De Mohrenschildt came and took these things, they
filled up his whole car almost, didn't they? There were quite a lot of
things?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take these things from Anna Meller's over to the
Fords' house?
Mrs. OSWALD. Only the bare necessities.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do with the other things that you had
brought to Anna Meller's?
Mrs. OSWALD. They remained at Anna Meller's.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who took the things from Meller's to Ford's?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it George De Mohrenschildt?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it Mr. Ford or Mrs. Ford?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what day it was that De Mohrenschildt
moved these things for you, what day of the week?
Mrs. OSWALD. The weekend--probably Sunday.
Mr. LIEBELER. What day did you first go to Anna Meller's; do you
remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
*Mrs. OSWALD. About 4 days before.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee know where you went the night you left him?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did he first find out where you were?
Mrs. OSWALD. George De Mohrenschildt knew that I was at Anna Meller's
and he telephoned Lee, but he did not tell Lee where I was. He asked
him to come to his house where I would also be at the time so that we
could discuss the things.
Mr. LIEBELER. The day you went to take the things to Anna Meller's, De
Mohrenschildt went to your apartment in his car; is that right?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with him?
*Mrs. OSWALD. His wife.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you with him?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, that you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and George De
Mohrenschildt came in the car out to the apartment?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And got these other things?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And left?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there when you came?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened when the three of you came to the apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing happened except he was very angry and I took
things.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?
*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not want me to leave.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. OSWALD. I was collecting things, so I don't know what
transpired--I was busy. Lee was helping me to gather the things,
because he said he didn't want anything--to take the whole works.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee first said that he was going to
tear your dresses up and break all the baby things if you left and went
away?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; maybe that's George De Mohrenschildt's joke.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's what George De Mohrenschildt told the Commission.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I know it.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think he meant it as a joke when he told it.
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.
Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe Lee said that to George De Mohrenschildt. I do not
know whether Lee said that to George De Mohrenschildt or not. I was
busy gathering the things.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there appear to be an argument or a discussion
between Lee and De Mohrenschildt at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think so--perhaps they were speaking
together--talking English and I didn't understand them.
Mr. LIEBELER. How would they usually talk to each other--in Russian or
in English?
Mrs. OSWALD. Both Russian and English.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did George Bouhe have anything to do with your leaving
Lee this time?
Mrs. OSWALD. George Bouhe told me that if I wanted to leave Lee, he
would help me at first, provided I would not go back to Lee. Bouhe did
not interfere into my and Lee's affairs, but he wanted to know if I
wanted to leave him permanently, he would help me. He told me that if I
wanted to leave him for good, then he would help me out, but not if I
would go back to him because the second time nobody would help me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in fact, you did later go back to Lee; didn't you?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he's my husband.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it is also a fact that when you did, George Bouhe was
displeased--unhappy?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And in fact he even asked you to give back to him the
dictionary that he had given you; didn't he?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he helped you no more after that?
Mrs. OSWALD. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt recalls this Sunday morning
differently--he said that he came there with his wife and that you
were still at the apartment with Lee, and that he and his wife came in
and told Lee that they were going to take you away because he had been
beating you in the past, and that he convinced you to leave and that
you all left then that Sunday morning and he took you over to Meller's.
He does not say you had previously gone to Meller's.
Mrs. OSWALD. That's not so. I was not at the apartment with Lee. I
came that Sunday with the De Mohrenschildts to the apartment. I was at
Anna Meller's and George De Mohrenschildt told me to be at his house
at a certain hour, 10 o'clock, or sometime, and that Lee will come to
his house, and Anna Meller took me. George Bouhe came to Anna Meller's
and took me to George De Mohrenschildt's house and Lee came to De
Mohrenschildt's house in a bus. Lee came to De Mohrenschildt's house on
a bus.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the same Sunday?
Mrs. OSWALD. That same Sunday.
Mr. McKENZIE. Later in the day?
Mrs. OSWALD. Ten o'clock or eleven.
Mr. McKENZIE. And before you went to the apartment?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. McKENZIE. Did Lee and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and George De
Mohrenschildt go to the apartment together in George De Mohrenschildt's
car?
Mrs. OSWALD. I do not remember right now whether Lee left after this
confrontation at De Mohrenschildt's house, whether Lee left first
or whether we all left De Mohrenschildt's house together, but I do
remember distinctly that I went in the car with George De Mohrenschildt
and his wife. I did not go with Lee and so it is impossible that they
came later.
Mr. LIEBELER. What happened at De Mohrenschildt's house this
morning--what was said there?
Mrs. OSWALD. De Mohrenschildt was telling Lee that that was not the way
to treat his wife and Lee begged me to stay with him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was De Mohrenschildt's wife there at this time?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did the meeting at De Mohrenschildt's house end; do
you remember?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not agree to go back with Lee and either Lee left by
the bus first, or, I don't remember it clearly what happened.
*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know what happened--I don't remember if Lee
goes with us or if he goes first.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember that Lee was at the apartment on
Elsbeth Street when you went there to get the clothes and things for
the baby?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you came there, did he just help you load the things
up?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be angry about anything?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was angry. That's why he helped me.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to go back to Lee, and that was when he
came out to Anna Ray's and met you there?
Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me several times begging me to return and he
came to Anna Ray's and he cried and you know a woman's heart--I went
back to him. He said he didn't care to live if I did not return.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who paid the taxi fare when you went over to Anna
Meller's the first time?
*Mrs. OSWALD. The first time--Anna Meller.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has been advised that some time in the
spring of 1963, you, yourself, either threatened to or actually tried
to commit suicide. Can you tell us about that?
Mrs. OSWALD. Do I have the right now not to discuss that?
Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't want to discuss that, certainly, but I
really would like to have Lee's reaction to the whole thing. But if you
don't want to tell us about it--all right.
Mrs. OSWALD. At my attempt at suicide, Lee struck me in the face and
told me to go to bed and that I should never attempt to do that--only
foolish people would do it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell him that you were going to do it, or did you
actually try?
Mrs. OSWALD. No; I didn't tell him, but I tried.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't want to discuss it any further?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a copy of Lee's diary?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes;--I have that now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a copy of the diary before it was printed in
the Dallas Morning News?
*Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. McKENZIE. You might also ask her if I had a copy of it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Mr. McKenzie had a copy of the
diary?
*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know--ask him. I don't know what you have in your
office--I'm sorry.
Mr. McKENZIE. Let the record show that Mr. McKenzie does not have a
copy of the diary, and that Mrs. Oswald states she did not have a copy
of the diary prior to its being published by the Dallas Morning News,
and for the purposes of the record the Life magazine and Time, Inc.,
first gave me a copy of the diary, and I in turn furnished a copy of
the diary to Mrs. Oswald from the copy that was given to me by Time,
Inc.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, that now, you do have a copy of the diary; is this
correct?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And it was given to you by Mr. McKenzie after he got it
from Time-Life, Inc.?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make an arrangement with Life magazine to give
them permission to publish the diary?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; after it has been published in the newspapers. I,
myself, would not have been willing for it to be published in the first
place.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Life magazine pay you anything for the privilege of
publishing the diary?
*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; $20,000. I would like to know where the Dallas
Morning News got the diary.
Mr. LIEBELER. I can tell you this much, Mrs. Oswald, that the Dallas
Morning News did not get a copy of the diary from the Commission. Other
than that, I can't say anything.
Mrs. OSWALD. If it is possible, I would like to determine where they
got it.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you enter into this arrangement with Life
magazine and how did it come about, Mrs. Oswald; will you tell us?