The testimony of Dial Duwayne Ryder was taken at 5:25 p.m., on March
25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you please rise, I will swear you as a witness.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Please be seated. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a
member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating
the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been
authorized to take testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant
to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November
29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. The Commission has
adopted rules of procedure in conformance with the Executive order
and the joint resolution. I understand that Mr. Rankin, the general
counsel to the Commission, wrote you a letter last week and told you
that I would contact you to take your testimony this week. He sent with
that letter, I understand, a copy of that Executive order and joint
resolution together with a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by
the Commission for the taking of testimony of witnesses. You received
that letter?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And copies of the papers I referred to?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Today we want to examine you briefly concerning the
possibility that you did some work on a rifle for a man by the name
of Oswald who may in fact have been Lee Harvey Oswald. Before we get
into that, we would like to have you state your full name for the court
reporter.
Mr. RYDER. Dial Duwayne [spelling] R-y-d-e-r.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Mr. RYDER. 2028 Harvard.
Mr. LIEBELER. What city?
Mr. RYDER. Irving, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you employed, Mr. Ryder?
Mr. RYDER. Irving Sports Shop.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that?
Mr. RYDER. 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of place is the Irving Sports Shop?
Mr. RYDER. Well, it's a retail sporting goods store.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do in your work there?
Mr. RYDER. Actually, my capacity is, I guess you could refer to it as
service manager. I do all the service work, gun work, outboard motor
work, rig boats. I guess you say general flunkie or service man you
refer to it as.
Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you?
Mr. RYDER. Twenty-five.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born here in Texas?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I was born in Claremont, Ill.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Texas?
Mr. RYDER. 1945.
Mr. LIEBELER. 1945?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go to school?
Mr. RYDER. Irving High School; actually, I went all the way through the
Irving public school system.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you graduated from the Irving Public High School?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you graduate from high school?
Mr. RYDER. 1957.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been working for the Irving Sports Shop?
Mr. RYDER. Five years be close enough; it's a little less than 5, but 5
covers it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have children?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been married?
Mr. RYDER. Five years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been in the military service?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What branch were you in?
Mr. RYDER. Went in the National Guard, 49th Armored Division which I am
still an active member.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of the National Guard?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you serve on active duty with the U.S. Army?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. For 2 years?
Mr. RYDER. No; actually it was, let's see, I guess you say it was 15
months, 16, something like that. In other words, while I was on 6
months' training, they activated the 49th Armored Division and I was
called in to stay 9 extra months on active duty.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you stationed while on active duty?
Mr. RYDER. Fort Leonard Wood, Fort Knox for advanced individual
training, and Fort Polk, La., with the 49th.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of training did you receive?
Mr. RYDER. Armored tank training.
Mr. LIEBELER. You served as a tanker at Fort Polk?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your rank in the National Guard?
Mr. RYDER. Now?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. RYDER. Sergeant.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was it at the time you went into active duty?
Mr. RYDER. It was June 11 in 1960 when I reported to Fort Leonard Wood.
Mr. LIEBELER. June what? What was your rank when you went on active
duty?
Mr. RYDER. I was just an E-2.
Mr. LIEBELER. E-2?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; or private--beginner--actually, I had 3 months
actually, National Guard work which waives your time for E-2, three
months' period. Of course, there isn't much difference in pay rate.
Mr. LIEBELER. It appears that there was a newspaper story that appeared
in the Dallas Times Herald on November 28, 1963, and apparently a
version of that story was carried in the New York Times on November 29,
1963, which mentions you. Do you recall being interviewed by a reporter
from a Dallas newspaper?
Mr. RYDER. After the story was out; yes--before, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean by that?
Mr. RYDER. Well, the deal is the story came out on Thanksgiving and
early that morning the telephone rang--I would say roughly 7:30 or 8,
something like that--and I answered the phone and a guy introduced
himself and I told him I didn't have any comment and hung up.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was a newspaperman?
Mr. RYDER. To tell you the truth, I didn't pay that much attention. I
was half asleep because it was a day off. I was going to get some of
that extra dozing time, you know, and I just told him I didn't have any
comment and hung the phone up and took it off the hook and later on
that day, CBS television came out and they were wanting a blownup deal
on it to put on television when they found it was opposite which came
out in the Times Herald.
Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, you were not interviewed as far as you
can remember by a newspaper reporter prior to the time the story came
out in the Times Herald?
Mr. RYDER. Not as far as I know. I was interviewed by the FBI and
Dallas Police Department and I believe a couple Secret Service men came
out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of those interviewed you first?
Mr. RYDER. The FBI was the first one out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what the date was when the FBI first
interviewed you?
Mr. RYDER. It was on Monday, the day of the funeral of President
Kennedy.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been November 25. Friday was the 22d,
Saturday would be the 23d, Sunday the 24h, Monday the 25th. Do you
remember the name of the FBI man?
Mr. RYDER. Mr. Horton.
Mr. LIEBELER. Horton [spelling] E-m-o-r-y E. H-o-r-t-o-n?
Mr. RYDER. I didn't get his first name. His last name stuck with
me--well, I don't know why; it just stayed there.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did Mr. Horton say to you and what did you say to
him, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. RYDER. Of course, we were closed on that Monday.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Irving Sports Shop was closed?
Mr. RYDER. Right, and he came to the house, so, at that time he showed
me pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald and pictures of the gun and asked me
about it. I said "Well, the face and the body features of Oswald there
was real common in this country." I mean, you know, in this area in
Texas and that to say that I had him in the shop, actually, this was
after a period of time that we boiled it down to. Oh, I told him I had
a ticket with the name Oswald, no date, no address, just for drilling
and tapping and boresighting--no address, or name; he didn't say he'd
like to see the ticket and was looking at the pictures, then I seen the
gun. Of course, from the picture I told him as far as I could remember
I told him I hadn't mounted that scope, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. You based that statement that you had not mounted the
scope on your recollection that you had not worked on that particular
kind of rifle, is that correct?
Mr. RYDER. Right, on this Italian rifle--I never worked on them. I seen
them but as far as doing any physical work, I haven't done none even to
this date, I haven't worked on any of them.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure about that?
Mr. RYDER. I am positive on that, very positive. So, we went up to the
Irving Sports Shop and I opened it up and got the ticket and showed
him. It was just a little repair ticket actually what it amounted to.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it have a number on it?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir; I don't remember the number.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give the tag to Mr. Horton?
Mr. RYDER. No; he told us to hold on to it, keep it and they would
probably get it later on and they did. It seems to me like it was 2 or
3 weeks ago they came and got it now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just 2 or 3 weeks ago?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who came and got it?
Mr. RYDER. I don't know; the boss, Mr. Greener, gave it to him. It was
on Saturday, I believe it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did that tag indicate the nature of the work that was to
be done?
Mr. RYDER. Well, actually, all it had on it was drill and tapping;
it said drill and tap and a price of $4.50, I believe it was and
boresight, of course, no charge on that, so by us charging $1.50 a
hole--that's what we normally charge for drillin' and tappin'--would on
this particular thing, would have been three holes drill and tap, where
in the picture of the gun there was only two screws holding the mount
of the scope on which is, more or less, made it positive we hadn't
mounted it on the gun, so Mr. Horton, so he took it for granted that I
hadn't done the work on it and I am sure I haven't because----
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of gun was it?
Mr. RYDER. It was a 6.5 Italian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the make?
Mr. RYDER. Like I say, I have seen several of them but as far as who
made the gun, I don't know; probably some Italian gun manufacturer but
as far as who it was, I don't know. I can't read Italian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell from looking at the ticket when this work
was done? First of all, the tag was not dated?
Mr. RYDER. The tag was not dated.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you make any estimate of the time by looking at
this ticket as to when the work was done?
Mr. RYDER. Well, it was done sometime between the 1st and 15th of
November.
Mr. LIEBELER. How could you tell that?
Mr. RYDER. Because the work was done while the Greeners or the Woody
Francis Greeners, the owners of the sport shop were on vacation.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know?
Mr. RYDER. They were gone that 2 weeks.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know it was done while they were gone?
Mr. RYDER. Actually, I can't really say too definitely sure but I am
quite sure it was because he doesn't remember seeing the gun in the
shop while he was there. In other words, before they left, and of
course, it was gone when they came back.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "the gun," what do you mean?
Mr. RYDER. The one I worked on--in other words, he keeps a pretty good
watch on my work to make sure I'm getting it out on time and he will
check fairly close every day, every other day, and check to make sure
I'm getting the work out, that old work isn't laying there to be done.
He's pretty sharp on remembering names and he would have remembered
that quite surely if----
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have much work of this type?
Mr. RYDER. Yes, sir; at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. You did have quite a lot of work at this time mounting
telescopic sights?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; when they left, that's 2 weeks prior to the opening of
the deer season here and I guess that 2 weeks I mounted 35, 40, maybe
50 scopes in that week as well as run the business while they was gone
which is quite a headache in itself. That's just prior to hunting
season, you see. Just like I told everybody all along, I couldn't say
specifically if it was by seeing pictures if it was him or another
Oswald. In other words, I don't put that close relation to a man's face
to a particular item of work.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did the deer season open--the 14th or 15th of
November?
Mr. RYDER. The 15th, I believe it was this year.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you say you mounted perhaps as many as 50 scopes in
the 2 weeks preceding that day?
Mr. RYDER. Very possibly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the last 2 weeks in October. Did you
have a similar number of scopes to mount during that time?
Mr. RYDER. Not quite that many. Lot of these guys like to get their
scopes mounted just before they leave. For instance, buying these
license plates and getting your car inspected works the same way. They
wait until the last minute before they really get ready to go.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of about how many scopes you
might have mounted during the last 2 weeks in October?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I sure wouldn't say specific to remember, sure
wouldn't be sure about the number.
Mr. LIEBELER. It would not have been as many as you did the first 2
weeks in November but would it have been more than 10?
Mr. RYDER. Oh, yeah; I'm quite sure. I say roughly 25 scopes. Of
course, a lot of these people that buy their scopes wholesale or buy
a cheap scope that we don't handle, we handle the better priced and
better scopes and they buy these things and mounts and everything
somewhere else and have us mount them.
Mr. LIEBELER. The thing I am working toward here is trying to fix the
date on which this ticket with the name Oswald on it--when the work was
done.
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you mounted, say, 25 scopes or approximately that many
during the last 2 weeks of October, isn't it possible that the Oswald
scope could have been mounted during that period of time and your boss
would not have remembered the name Oswald as being connected with one
of those rifles?
Mr. RYDER. Could have, but like I say, he's pretty sharp. He's pretty
smart; I mean in keeping up with the business, you know what I mean. In
other words, the flow of the work that I had; in other words, he keeps
a close watch on it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you stated that the repair tag had a number on it.
Are these repair tags taken off a book with tags with consecutive
numbers on them?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do these numbers come from?
Mr. RYDER. We buy repair tags, of course, they have a main base of
the tag, just a tag you can tear off and you can tear off--say I have
number 41626 of the other piece; in other words, have the right tag on
the gun. As far as sequence, we don't use any. We have a box and we
reach over, get a tag, put a man's name on it. The same tag is used on
reels, rods, outboard motors, boats.
Mr. LIEBELER. So there is no possible way in which you could fix the
date by observing the sequence of the number on the tag?
Mr. RYDER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you limit it to a period of 2 weeks?
Mr. RYDER. Like I say, it would be from the 1st to around the 14th or
15th of November while the Greeners was away.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said before you were quite sure you never worked on
a----
Mr. RYDER. The Italian gun.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Italian rifle. Do you have any recollection of the
kind of rifle that this Oswald tag referred to?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't. That's another place where we did--in
other words, I did so many and I was so rushed that I didn't pay a
whole lot of attention to what tag was to have such and such a scope
put on. That is where actually our fall-down went on the thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is no indication on the tag as to what kind of
rifle it would be?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you helped at all by the fact that the tag indicates
that three holes were drilled? Do you ordinarily drill three holes on
all rifles?
Mr. RYDER. We boiled it down to this: That there are two type bases
used that have three. The Redfield base and the Buehler base and then,
actually, these could go on any gun that you want. In other words, if
a man bought a Redfield or Buehler base they can be adapted to any gun
with three holes. Now any imported, we couldn't say definitely if it
was imported because the Springfield O3A3 requires three holes; the
British 303 requires three holes. These are guns they use and that's
the only ones we could think of offhand that would require just three
holes, so we boiled it down, it was either Buehler, Redfield base or
with the Weaver base being on the Springfield O3A3.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or the 303 British rifle?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say you boiled this down in your conversation with
Horton from the FBI?
Mr. RYDER. Actually, this was amongst ourselves, I and Mr. Greener.
Actually, there was a lady from the Washington press, of course, I
don't know, I forgotten which paper she worked with but she was with
the Washington press and we discussed this with her quite thoroughly.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember her name?
Mr. RYDER. I sure don't. She, in turn, called Klein's and found out
the rifle that was used in the assassination had already been drilled
and tapped. In other words, he had bought the scope and rifle from
Klein's and they were shipped together and all he had to do was attach
it to this particular gun. In other words, the one he used in the
assassination. Of course, they order by serial number.
Mr. LIEBELER. You also testified you did not mount any scope on an
Italian rifle?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say, that when you mount a scope you do not charge
for the process of boresighting, is that correct?
Mr. RYDER. Actually, it's hard to say, really. At that time we were
not charging if we drilled and tapped one, we didn't do it. Now we do
charge extra, $1.50 bore sighting.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall if there was an extra $1.50 for
boresighting indicated on the ticket in question?
Mr. RYDER. I don't even remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing that point with Agent Horton?
Mr. RYDER. Yeah; we talked maybe we did charge $1.50 for the
boresighting. As a matter of fact, I did because $6--or was it $4.50--I
don't even remember that now.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't now remember whether the ticket was for $4.50
or $6?
Mr. RYDER. That's right, right now, I don't. It seems like to me it was
for $4.50 for drill, tapping, and bore sighting. I believe it was for
$4.50. In other words, I didn't charge for boresighting.
Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do when you bore sight a rifle?
Mr. RYDER. Well, I use a sight-a-line. That's actually three different
things but, what it is, it's an optic deal made by this manufacturing
company that has a little cross hair in it just like a scope. It lays
like such instead of like such [illustrating]. By taking a little sprig
that fits different caliber rifles, fits in the rifle, you look through
the scope and line the four cross hairs together to the center point
of the cross hairs. It doesn't zero a gun by any means. It just gets
you--oh, better where you can tell where you're hitting.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you can't really zero a gun any by just boresighting
it?
Mr. RYDER. No; actually, it lines your bore and your sight at one point
or close to one point where you can get your point from there without
wasting ammunition. If I were to anchor a barrel or piece of pipe in
a vise and pick out a spot over there on that building [indicating]
somewhere; say, draw a circle and I line this with that and aline the
sight, I have a scope or open sight either one, over to that point, I
go to shoot at it offhand and there's a different way I hold that gun.
This breaks it down to a fine deal where you understand the difference
between boresighting and zero. If you been in the army, you know the
difference. In other words, this method I was just describing say, to
the building, is the way we use the bore sight.
Mr. LIEBELER. But now you have a little machine that does that?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; we have this little optical instrument we use now which
makes it simple and faster.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever worked with any rifles that came from
Klein's in Chicago or mail-order rifles that came with scopes mounted
on it?
Mr. RYDER. You can't tell unless a man tells you. In other words, to
look at one you can't tell any difference in workmanship.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as how the scope was mounted, you mean?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any way of knowing whether these scopes are
boresighted when mounted by a mail-order house or not?
Mr. RYDER. Most likely they are. Now, I don't know how they operate,
if they do boresight any there or not. I do know for a fact if you
boresight or zero a boresight on a Redfield base or any base except
Bausch and Lomb, other than those, other than the Bausch and Lomb, if
you take the scope off and put it back on you have to rezero. In other
words, if they did boresight it and take it back off and ship it, it's
going to be entirely different when the man receives the gun. It might
be close enough for a man to shoot one in but won't be near as close.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think that a rifle would have to be zeroed in any
event after it had been shipped from a mail-order house before it
could be used to shoot accurately?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; take for example, I have a Model 70 Winchester .30-06
caliber with a K-4 Weaver scope; nearly every season prior to deer
season I will shoot it in and I have found several times it has been
off just by riding in the back of the car. Taking it in and out of a
gun case, things like that will make them off. In other words, they
are not built so rigid that a little something here and there can get
bumped loose so it would be like I say, he would have to have it zeroed
after he received it from the mail-order house, most definitely.
Mr. LIEBELER. If I were to tell you that this particular rifle had been
carried to New Orleans and back in a station wagon and had laid in a
garage in Irving for 2 months prior to the assassination and had been
moved around in the garage, would that lead you to believe it might be
out of sight at that time?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; it could be very possible.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it would be probable or do you have any
experience to make a judgment like that?
Mr. RYDER. Like I say, of course, I take proper good care of the gun
I got and I have to readjust it quite often when I shoot it in. Of
course, then again, too, later on, from one season to the next I might
change from the way I held my gun which is another thing to make a lot
of difference in the way I shoot but one to be carried that far, unless
it was really taken care of can very, very easily be knocked out of
alinement or out of adjustment. Another thing, too, on just looking at
this picture----
Mr. LIEBELER. The picture of the rifle?
Mr. RYDER. The picture of the rifle that Mr. Horton had; this was a
real cheap, common, real flimsy looking--of course, I couldn't tell by
just looking at the picture say the type of material it was made of,
but to me it looked rather cheap. It would be very easily knocked out
of adjustment.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never been shown the actual rifle itself, is
that correct?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I haven't. I would like to see which mount it is,
see whose make it is, but I haven't seen it yet.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by an agent of the
Secret Service?
Mr. RYDER. They came out and talked to Mr. Greener rather than
myself. Well, I talked with them, too; we had a triangular, circular
conversation--Mr. Greener, myself, and the agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the agent's name?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it refresh your recollection if I said his name was
Elmer W. Moore?
Mr. RYDER. Doesn't ring a bell.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the Secret Service agent that you
were certain after viewing photographs of Oswald that you had never
done any work for him; in fact had never seen him?
Mr. RYDER. Not actually in that tone; like I say, like I told all of
them that interviewed me, even the reporter, that his features are very
common, I say, for the working class in the Dallas and Fort Worth area
and he could have been in the shop, sport shop, I might ought to say,
and be easily mistaken for another person or another person similar
to his features could have been in, but I couldn't say specific if he
had been in the shop or not, I mean, that's something I won't draw a
conclusion on because like I say his features, face and all is common
with the working class here and he could easily be mistaken one way or
the other either for him or for another person.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as far as outside of the shop is concerned, you see,
I'm troubled to some extent because I have before me a report of the
agent from the Secret Service and a report from the agent of the FBI.
One report says you are quite sure you have seen and talked to Oswald
and the other one says you are quite sure you have not seen him. I am
puzzled by those statements.
Mr. RYDER. Like I continue to say all the way through on their
investigation, both that Secret Service man and from the FBI that he
could have been in the shop; I could have talked to him but to say I
had definitely, I couldn't say I have really talked to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you say you definitely have ever seen him outside
of the shop anyplace?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't believe I have. I mean I couldn't say
specific because back again to the common features, so on and so forth,
but, actually, we have drawn a conclusion, of course, that is, I and
the boys and people concerned at the sport shop there that it was
either this Oswald with another gun or another Oswald with another gun.
We know definitely that it was another gun. We know that for sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have already carefully considered the possibility
of identifying that other gun but you are not able to do it?
Mr. RYDER. Right; Mr. Greener called all the other Oswalds listed in
the Dallas and Irving directories.
Mr. LIEBELER. He did that?
Mr. RYDER. Right, with no avail; in other words, nothing turned up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Whose handwriting does the name Oswald appear to be
written in?
Mr. RYDER. It's mine.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is your own handwriting?
Mr. RYDER. It is my own handwriting; the whole thing was written up by
me.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first discover this tag?
Mr. RYDER. Well, it's kind of funny, actually, how I found the tag. My
workbench generally is cluttered up, you know how tools get scattered
around and I was--I had been to the Evinrude Service School----
Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas?
Mr. RYDER. Yeah, at the Marriott over here and we were talking about it
that evening and, of course, by the time I got back from the service
clinic was just about time to close and we left and that Saturday
afternoon I started cleaning off the workbench and I found the ticket
of which I didn't say anything to anybody else there and when Mr.
Horton came out on Monday, well, then I told him we had a tag. I
didn't want to keep anything back but after he showed me the picture
and everything I apparently drew my conclusions of not working on that
particular gun anyway.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did Horton know to come out to the sports shop?
Mr. RYDER. Actually, I don't know. He evidently was checking all of
the----
Mr. LIEBELER. Gunshops?
Mr. RYDER. Gunshops and hit us on Monday, well, let's see, it was, oh,
it was about 10:30 or 11 that morning whenever he first came out.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are not familiar with this particular kind of rifle,
are you? You have not worked on any similar rifles?
Mr. RYDER. Well, there's quite a few similar but this particular one is
a real oddity. It's an odd job and I have never worked on any. I have
seen several.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever broken one down?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; never have. As a matter of fact, the only thing I
can remember doing is just pulling the bolt back on it and closing it
back up. That, to me, is common; I always make sure there's no shells
or anything before I look at one. That's the first thing if you hand me
a pistol, I kick the cylinder out or spin it through to make sure it's
unloaded but this gun is real odd, I mean it's a crude-built gun.
Mr. LIEBELER. When a gun is broken down, by that, I am sure you
understand that I mean you remove the action and the barrel from the
stock. The rifle then is, generally speaking, in two shorter pieces.
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. The two pieces you have are shorter than the gun is when
put together?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is generally true because the stock of the rifle
doesn't ordinarily extend to the end of the barrel?
Mr. RYDER. Right; now on some military rifles they do extend all the
way to the end of the barrel or close to the end, put it that way.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you note in connection with the picture that you
observed of this rifle they found in the Texas School Book Depository
Building, did you note whether or not on that rifle the stock went
very close to the end of the barrel or didn't come out so far?
Mr. RYDER. As far as I remember it had been cut off, or, in other
words, it didn't go to the end of the barrel, as far as I remember, I
don't. I am quite sure it didn't. It went a little over half way in the
picture that I saw.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that sometimes in the military rifles the
stock goes quite far along the barrel?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that not a common type of construction in a domestic
rifle or nonmilitary rifle?
Mr. RYDER. Right; or nonmilitary or what we call a sporter rifle your
stock goes half way to the end of the barrel leaving the end of the
barrel to wiggle as it may. A military rifle, M-1, Garand, O3A3, 303,
they all are of wood and completely encased around the barrel. In other
words, you had a piece run all the way on the bottom of it; piece that
filled in on the top side. Lot of people use military rifles or use
sporter rifles that some cut the stock off at a slight angle, say, a
little above half way of the barrel. Others go ahead and spend and
buy the sporter-type stock they can fit their gun to, but as far as I
remember, this stock on the picture didn't go all the way to the end of
the barrel.
Mr. LIEBELER. Unless you can think of anything else that you want
to add at this point I just tell you for the record that my present
inclination is to close the deposition at this point. I may wish to
question you again and possibly bring the rifle down here so you can
look at it. Unless you can think of anything else you want to add at
this time that you think might be helpful, we will terminate. Can you
think of anything else?
Mr. RYDER. No; I can't think of anything right now.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask one or two more questions. You mentioned
you were interviewed by the Dallas police force about this. Do you
remember the name of the man or men who talked to you on the Dallas
police force?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't. Actually, I say Dallas Police Department,
it was the sheriff's department rather than the Dallas Police
Department, really. Of course, I connect the two together but they're
two separate organizations; I know that.
Mr. LIEBELER. In view of my former statement, I would like to thank you
at this time. If we decide to continue with this, we will advise you in
the future.