Miss MUMFORD. No; we wrote home from Mexico City describing the awful
bus trip, with crying kids, et cetera, and happened to mention that
there was a young Texan and we called him "Texas."
Mr. BALL. But you didn't call him "Texas" to his face?
Miss MUMFORD. No, No.
Mr. BALL. How was this boy from Texas dressed?
Miss MUMFORD. He was dressed casually. I don't remember what color
trousers he had on. He had on a dark sweater. I know that. It was a
wool sweater, a sort of a charcoal gray color.
When we saw him on television, being arrested or being taken down to
the Dallas County jail, Patricia was the first to recognize that that
was the same sweater. We were reluctant to believe this, of course,
at first; that we knew this man. But she said the thinning hair on
the top, the thinning, curly, wiry hair, plus the sweater that she
recognized right away, and I recognized afterwards, made us almost
certain that this was the same man.
Mr. BALL. Did he have a shirt on?
Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember. In discussing this with Patricia
she said that she felt he had some sort of a checked shirt on, just
underneath.
Mr. BALL. He didn't have a tie on?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. Open?
Miss MUMFORD. Open sport shirt; yes.
Mr. BALL. And did he have on a jersey; pale-green jersey that you
noticed?
Miss MUMFORD. No; not pale green.
Mr. BALL. Now, you said he had some luggage. Did you see the luggage?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How much luggage did he have?
Miss MUMFORD. Just one medium sized--I can't remember whether it was an
overnight bag or one of these pouch affairs, you know.
Mr. BALL. Was it a zipper bag?
Miss MUMFORD. Well, I thought it was a zipper bag. I am not really
certain on that point.
Mr. BALL. What color was it?
Miss MUMFORD. I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Did he have the bag with him in the seat, or near the seat
where he was sitting?
Miss MUMFORD. Up on the railing, above him.
Mr. BALL. And when he left the bus in Mexico City did he carry the
luggage with him?
Miss MUMFORD. I can't say for sure.
Mr. BALL. When you last saw him standing in the bus depot did he have a
piece of luggage in his hand?
Miss MUMFORD. I can't remember that either.
Mr. BALL. Did Oswald tell you where he had boarded the bus?
Miss MUMFORD. No; I don't think he did.
Mr. BALL. What was the name of the bus depot in Mexico City where you
last saw Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. I am not sure of that. I know the name of the bus, or I
am fairly certain of the name of the bus. But I am not sure of the bus
station.
Mr. BALL. Were there a lot of bus stations?
Miss MUMFORD. Well, that is a point I am not sure of. We took a bus
down to Acapulco from Mexico City and I have the feeling that was the
busline we took to Acapulco. I know there are about three different
buslines situated in different places in Mexico City, and I am not sure
just what was the name of the depot we came into.
Mr. BALL. Now, again, on the luggage, did he have one or more pieces of
luggage?
Miss MUMFORD. I think it was one.
Mr. BALL. Just one?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And that was a zipper type?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Are you able to tell me what color it was?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. You saw Oswald on television after the President had been
shot, didn't you?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Now, tell me where you were when you saw the television and
who was with you and what you said.
Miss MUMFORD. On the Friday night of the 22d, Pat and I left by bus
for Las Vegas for the weekend. Patricia was not working at that time.
I am not sure whether she had seen television shots--I think we had
both seen television shots before we left for the bus station. I am not
familiar with whether we realized at that stage that it was him or not.
I remember in Las Vegas we had a television in our motel room and it
was then that we were both very sure that it was the same man.
Mr. BALL. You saw him on television, did you?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you thought you recognized him then?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. As the man you had met on the bus?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. The man you have referred to as "Texas"?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes; well, we knew we had seen him somewhere before, and
we were sort of going over our travels in our mind, and it hit us that
it was on that bus, particularly when they said he was from Fort Worth,
or from Texas.
Mr. BALL. Now, can you give me a description of the Englishman; what he
looked like? You told me his approximate age.
Miss MUMFORD. He was short. Yes; about 5'8". Quite bald, plump; fat. He
was also dressed casually.
Mr. BALL. Did he have a tie on?
Miss MUMFORD. I don't remember. He seemed to me not to be well dressed.
He was scruffy. He spoke well. He spoke with a cultured English accent
more than a Cockney or a suburbia accent.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you whether or not he had lived in Mexico before?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes; Not--he didn't specify Mexico City. He said that he
had lived on and off in Mexico for 25 years.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you his name?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. Well, you were shown pictures of a man later on by the
Federal Bureau of Investigation agent, were you not?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And they showed you pictures of Oswald, didn't they; Lee
Harvey Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. You didn't ever see a picture of Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. But they showed you pictures of a man, did they not?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes; they showed us two pictures the first time, one
picture I was fairly certain was the same gentleman. The other picture,
whom they said was the same man, I couldn't give that description--I
couldn't say definitely that it was him or even the same man.
The second time the FBI official showed me a photo was some weeks or
months later and I could make a definite--what is the word I want?
Mr. BALL. Identification?
Miss MUMFORD. Identification of that picture.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell the agent?
Miss MUMFORD. Well, that third picture, on the second time he had
showed it to me, was, I was certain, the same man.
Mr. BALL. You mean the elderly Englishman?
Miss MUMFORD. The elderly Englishman.
Mr. BALL. That you had seen on the bus?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see this Englishman again?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. Except this night, or this ride on the bus?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes; that was the only time.
Mr. BALL. Did they tell you that the Englishman's name was John Howard
Bowen?
Miss MUMFORD. No; I don't recall ever being told his name.
Mr. BALL. Or that he might have had the name Albert Osborne?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. You don't remember either of those?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. Was your friend with you when the agent showed you the
pictures?
Miss MUMFORD. The first set of pictures, she was still in this country
and she was also shown them. The second set of pictures was shown to me
after she had left.
Mr. BALL. When the first set of pictures was shown to your friend
Patricia Winston, what did she say?
Miss MUMFORD. If I remember correctly, she felt the same way as I did:
that one of the photos was a good likeness, and the other one she
couldn't make an identification.
Mr. BALL. Do you have anything else that you would care to say; any
impressions that you obtained from this ride on the bus that you think
might be of assistance to us?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. You have told us about all you know about that trip, have
you, now?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. This will be written up and submitted to you for your
signature, I hope this week.
Mr. DILLAVOU. You mentioned to me, Pam, something about the frugality
of this boy in his travels. I don't know if you want that----
Mr. BALL. Yes; we would like that.
Miss MUMFORD. Oh, yes; he did say that the Hotel Cuba was a very cheap
place to stay, and I think either Patricia or myself made the comment,
"Well, that suits us fine because that is the way we do it, too."
That is the only thing I can remember that he said that referred to his
way of travel.
Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about how much money he had, or how much
he could spend or would spend?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. That's all.