Mr. JENNER. Had he identified her as to her origin here or in Russia?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; this was afterward. Naturally when we brought up this
business about the Russian residence, he mentioned she was a Russian
girl and spoke no English. He said that was the way he wanted it
because it gave him an opportunity to keep up his Russian. He wanted to
keep his Russian up, and so they spoke nothing but Russian in the home.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any family?
Mr. STUCKEY. He mentioned a wife and child. Now on the first broadcast
on Saturday the 17th he mentioned, you will recall, in that brief
digest of his background, he said he had been in the Marine Corps and
then had left and gone to Texas and had recently arrived in New Orleans
with his wife and his child. So in that case he mentioned that he did
have a daughter and a wife. I see something I have omitted about the
first meeting I had with him on the morning of August 17th.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. STUCKEY. At his home.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mr. STUCKEY. He told me at that time he was working as an assistant to
a commercial photographer in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. You made no check on that?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; I didn't check him out.
Mr. JENNER. You were not then aware of the fact that, the fact was that
he was not an assistant to a commercial photographer.
Mr. STUCKEY. No; I was not aware of that.
Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you where he was working?
Mr. STUCKEY. No.
Mr. JENNER. You were not aware, therefore, at that time he was at that
time an oiler or a greaser at the Reily Coffee Co.
Mr. STUCKEY. Is that correct?
Mr. JENNER. He was out of work at that time, but he had been.
Mr. STUCKEY. I never could figure out why he referred to the trade of
photography. Had he been involved in photography?
Mr. JENNER. When he was in Dallas prior to his coming to New Orleans
in the spring of 1963, he had been an apprentice with a company,
Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, a commercial advertising photographing company
that produced advertising materials, mats, and photographs, and
that sort of thing. He worked in the darkroom. He had very limited
experience.
Mr. STUCKEY. That apparently is what he was referring to.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. STUCKEY. Here is some additional information if you would like me
to bring this out.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; go ahead.
Mr. STUCKEY. I am going to the conversation after the broadcast of the
21st, this is with Oswald and me at Comeaux's Bar. I asked him at that
time how he became interested in Marxism and he said that there are
many books on the subject in any public library. I asked him if he,
if his family was an influence on him in any way. He says, "No," and
he kind of looked a little amused. He said, "No," he says, "They are
pretty much typical New Orleans types," and that was about all he said.
Mr. JENNER. Did he mention his mother?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; he didn't. As a matter of fact, when we referred
to his family, all his references were in the plural, and it was my
impression that he had a mother and a father, sisters, aunts, uncles
and everybody, because the general impression was that there were a
number of people in the family. I was surprised to find out that it
wasn't true, later.
Mr. JENNER. Well, he had relatives in New Orleans, the Murret family.
Mr. STUCKEY. I see.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret is--Marguerite Oswald, that is his mother--that
was her sister.
Mr. STUCKEY. He told me that he had begun to read Marx and Engels at
the age of 15, but he said the conclusive thing that made him decide
that Marxism was the answer was his service in Japan. He said living
conditions over there convinced him something was wrong with the
system, and that possibly Marxism was the answer. He said it was in
Japan that he made up his mind to go to Russia and see for himself how
a revolutionary society operates, a Marxist society.
Mr. JENNER. He thought that Russia was a Marxist society?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you question or discuss with him whether he found that
the system in Russia was a Marxist society or whether it was----
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; he wasn't very pleased apparently with some of the
aspects of Russian political life. Particularly in the factories he
said that a lot of the attitudes and this sort of thing was the same
sort of attitude that you would find in an American factory. There was
a lot of dead-heading, as we say in Louisiana. I don't know what your
expression is.
Mr. JENNER. Goldbricking.
Mr. STUCKEY. Goldbricking. The boss' relatives on the payrolls at nice
salaries.
Mr. JENNER. Nepotism.
Mr. STUCKEY. Nepotism, this sort of thing. Anybody with any authority
at all would just use it to death to get everybody extra privileges
that they could, and a lot of dishonesty, padding of production figures
and this sort of thing. He said he wasn't very impressed.
Mr. JENNER. Were you curious as to why he had come back to the United
States and did you, if you were curious, discuss that subject with him?
Mr. STUCKEY. I don't believe I did. As a matter of fact, I wasn't
curious at the time. We just accepted the fact that he had. In
hindsight we should have asked a lot of questions about him.
Mr. JENNER. The newspaper material that you had read, there was, was
there not, something about his dishonorable discharge from the Marines?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; I don't recall any reference to that in the
newspapers. Incidentally, Oswald had told me and had produced a
discharge card that he was honorably discharged from the Marine Corps.
He produced a card showing this.
Mr. JENNER. When had he done that?
Mr. STUCKEY. This was the night of the 17th at the radio station. Why
he did this I don't know. I forget what the circumstances were. I
recognized the card because, after all, I was a marine myself and I had
one exactly like it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you, in the tete-a-tete in Comeaux's Bar discuss with
him his attempt, when in Russia, to renounce his American citizenship?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; we didn't, because that was alluded to in the
broadcast and, as far as I was concerned, it was satisfactorily
answered.
Mr. JENNER. He does respond--you say, and I am now turning to the
document identified as Stuckey Exhibit No. 3, a transcript of that
radio debate--in your preliminary remarks you advert to the fact
that you had sought an independent source, Washington newspaper
clippings--you advert to the fact that Mr. Oswald, and I am reading,
"Mr. Oswald had attempted to renounce his American citizenship in 1959
and become a Soviet citizen.
"There was another clipping dated 1952 saying Mr. Oswald had returned
from the Soviet Union with his wife and child after having lived there
3 years. Mr. Oswald, are these correct?" And he responds, "That is
correct." I might say for the record that the date 1952 is the date
that appears in this transcript, but the fact is that it was 1962. That
was either a slip of the tongue or it is a typographical error, is that
correct?
Mr. STUCKEY. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. But in this informal conversation following the broadcast
you did not pursue these subjects?
Mr. STUCKEY. Not those. We discussed other subjects. He made another
observation about life in Russia. He said things were extremely bland,
homogenized.
Mr. JENNER. Did he elaborate on that?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I thought it was interesting.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that, please.
Mr. STUCKEY. He said that nobody--everybody seems to be almost alike in
Russia because, after all, they had eliminated a lot of the dissenting
elements in Russian society and had achieved fairly homogenous blend of
population as a result.
Mr. JENNER. That was an observation on his part, was it, of an aspect
of Russian society that disappointed him?
Mr. STUCKEY. I don't know. I don't recall him expressing an opinion
as to whether he was disappointed by that. It was a comment. His tone
was slightly acid as if he did not like it, but again this is my
impression. He did say this which was interesting, he said that they
wouldn't allow any Fair Play for Cuba Committees in Russia.
Mr. JENNER. He did?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; he said they just would not because it is the type of
organization that Russian society would just suppress.
Mr. JENNER. Russian society?
Mr. STUCKEY. The Russian authorities would suppress.
Mr. JENNER. Russian authorities suppress any militant organization of
this character.
Mr. STUCKEY. Exactly.
Mr. JENNER. Whether it was Fair Play for Cuba or anything else that is
militant in the sense of being openly critical of the Russian society
and Russian politics?
Mr. STUCKEY. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did he observe on that subject, did he observe in the sense
of his feeling that in America you are permitted within the bounds of
the Constitution to enjoy free speech and criticize your Government as
distinguished from not being able to do so in Russia?
Mr. STUCKEY. He didn't add anything other than what I have already
said, but the implication was that we can do that here. "After all, you
know here I have this organization and I am doing this. They probably
would not let me do a similar thing in Russia," and this was his tone.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to his regard or judgment
with respect to the government in which he was, whose privileges he was
then exercising?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; he had given lip service a time or two to the fact
that he considered himself a loyal American. He was constantly
referring to rights, constitutional rights, and he made some historical
references. He illustrated the development of these rights in America.
Mr. JENNER. Did this informal conversation at Comeaux's Bar go on, you
said, for about an hour?
Mr. STUCKEY. Approximately an hour.
Mr. JENNER. Was he comfortable in the sense--was he eager, was he
pleased----
Mr. STUCKEY. He was relaxed, he was friendly. He seemed to be relieved
it was all over. My impression was he was relieved that he did not have
to hide the bit about the Russian residence any more, and that it had
been a strain doing so, because his manner was completely different.
There wasn't the stiffness or the guarded words and guarded replies. He
seemed fairly open, and I have no reason to believe that everything he
told me that night was not true. I think it was true.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any difference in his attitude or demeanor with
respect to personal self-confidence, for example, in that Saturday
interview at his home and your interview with him prior to the Monday
night broadcast, taking that as a base, and comparing it with his
attitude in Comeaux's Bar after you had revealed the fact that he had
been in Russia and had attempted to defect?
Mr. STUCKEY. Well, there wasn't any change. He was pretty consistent in
his behavior from the very first time I met him until Comeaux's Bar,
so this was the only notable change I observed. The manner was always
guarded, even from the very first when he came out on his porch on
August 17 in his dungarees, his manner was guarded.
Mr. JENNER. Was it guarded in Comeaux's?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; it was not.
Mr. JENNER. This was much more relaxed?
Mr. STUCKEY. Considerably.
Mr. JENNER. Following that tete-a-tete in Comeaux's Bar for about an
hour, did you ever see Oswald after that?
Mr. STUCKEY. That was the last time I ever saw him.
Mr. JENNER. When was the next time you heard of Oswald?
Mr. STUCKEY. On November 22, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. What was that occasion?
Mr. STUCKEY. The assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. JENNER. How was it raised, what brought it to your attention?
Mr. STUCKEY. I was watching a TV news broadcast at the time, and they
had a bulletin in which they said a suspect had been arrested in the
assassination, and they mentioned Lee Harvey Oswald, and I fell to the
ground practically; I was surprised.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a video tape?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes. Following the debate show of August 21, Bill Slatter,
the radio announcer, decided that some news had been made that night
on the show, so he took Oswald back to the studio to repeat some of
the statements he had made on the radio show for video tape. And they
interviewed Oswald for quite a while, I would say for 5 minutes. But I
understand that that night they only ran a brief excerpt of that tape,
and the rest of it they threw away.
Mr. JENNER. The station has supplied us with what tape they did not
throw away, the video tape.
Mr. STUCKEY. They are not throwing away anything at that station any
more, by the way, now.
Mr. JENNER. I suppose not. Without speculation on your part, if you
have a recollection, do you recall whether he was right handed or left
handed?
Mr. STUCKEY. I don't recall. I don't believe that he ever had the
opportunity to use his hand in such a way you could identify it. I
never saw him writing.
Mr. JENNER. At least you never noticed it one way or the other?
Mr. STUCKEY. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did he smoke?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; he did not smoke. Again, this was part of my--of
the impression of him that struck me. He seemed like somebody that
took very good care of himself, very prudent, temperate, that sort of
person. It was my impression Oswald regarded himself as living in a
world of intellectual inferiors.
Mr. JENNER. Please elaborate on that. And on what do you base that,
please?
Mr. STUCKEY. Well, I base a lot of this on the conversation that we
had in Comeaux's Bar. After all, I had paid some attention to Oswald,
nobody else had particularly, and he seemed to enjoy talking with
somebody he didn't regard as a stupid person, and it was my impression
he thought that everybody else he had come in contact with was rather
cloddish, and got the impression that he thought that he had--his
philosophy, the way he felt about things, all this sort of thing, most
people just could not understand this, and only an intelligent or
educated person could. I don't mean to say that there was any arrogance
in his manner. There was just--well, you can spot intelligence, or
at least I can, I think, and this was a man who was intelligent, who
was aware that he was intelligent, and who would like to have an
opportunity to express his intelligence--that was my impression.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you obtain of this man with respect to
his volatility, that is, did you get any impression that he was quick
to anger?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; very well-disciplined, as a matter of fact. After all,
he had been provoked on several occasions that afternoon by Bringuier
and Butler on the show.
Mr. JENNER. Or that evening.
Mr. STUCKEY. That evening; yes. And, of course, Bringuier's attempt
to convert him to the cause of Revolutionary Students Directorate was
presented in a rather biting way, and Oswald just took it, and just
more or less told him that he wasn't interested, whereas other people
might have gotten a little mad. After all, you have to recognize that
Oswald--they were ganging up on him. There were a bunch of us around
there. There were three people who disagreed with him, and he was only
one man, and the fact that he kept his composure with this type of
environment indicates discipline.
Mr. JENNER. That is right. Now, I show you a Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A.
Do you see Mr. Oswald shown on that exhibit?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is there a mark or something over his head?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; there is a green cross of some sort.
Mr. JENNER. All right. There is a man to his left, there is an arrow, a
vertical arrow, over that man's head. Do you recognize that person?
Mr. STUCKEY. No.
Mr. JENNER. Far to the left, the most extreme left, of the picture is
another man with dark glasses on. He has a green vertical stripe over
his head. Do you recognize him?
Mr. STUCKEY. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, to the left of the man with the vertical arrow above
his head is a tall rather husky young fellow whose back is turned. Do
you, by any chance, recognize him?
Mr. STUCKEY. This one?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. STUCKEY. No.
Mr. JENNER. I will ask you the general question do you recognize
anybody depicted on Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A other than Oswald?
Mr. STUCKEY. Oswald is the only person I recognize in that picture.
Mr. JENNER. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B. Do you recognize Oswald
on that picture?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; he has the green mark above his head.
Mr. JENNER. That is the vertical mark and it is the only mark on that
photograph, is it not?
Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to the group of men on that
photograph in which Oswald is a part although his back is to the group,
do you recognize any of those men shown on that photograph?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; I recognize nobody.
Mr. JENNER. And to the right side of the girl there are some ladies. Do
you recognize any of them?
Mr. STUCKEY. I was just looking over that. One of them looks vaguely
familiar, but--no; I would have to say. No; I don't know the women.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize the vicinity or place shown?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; that is the front of the International Trade Mart
Building on Common and Camp Streets in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. If I may have that tape so I can put an exhibit number on
it----
Mr. STUCKEY. Do you want to take it now rather than go through all the
letter-writing proceedings?
Mr. JENNER. I am not going to take it, but I am going to mark it and
give it back to you. I don't want to have possession of it. I just want
to look to see----
Mr. STUCKEY. Would it be easier for the Commission if it were made into
a record rather than a tape? I have a record that I have made, my own
personal record.
Mr. JENNER. I will inquire about that. It possibly might be better. You
mean a platter, a disc?
Mr. STUCKEY. A platter, a disc.
Mr. JENNER. I suppose a tape is easier to preserve. A hundred years
from now this tape would be just as true as it is today, that is
assuming it is kept under good conditions, whereas a platter might
deteriorate.
Mr. STUCKEY. That is true.
Mr. JENNER. So I think we had better have the tape.
Mr. STUCKEY. The disc would start decomposing after about the 25th time
you played them, and also they get scratched and such. But one thing
is you can't erase a record and you can erase a tape. That is the kind
of nightmares you have with a tape. I was afraid to have a copy made
of that thing for a long time just out of fear somebody might make a
mistake and it would be erased.
Mr. JENNER. You have insured against that by your disk, a platter?
Mr. STUCKEY. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Stuckey, was a recording made on audio tape of the
37-minute interview that you had with Mr. Oswald on Monday, the 17th of
August?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; I have made one record which is strictly for my own
use.
Mr. JENNER. You say you made it?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it it was made for you by somebody?
Mr. STUCKEY. It was made for me by Cosimo's Recording Studio in New
Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. From what source was the tape made by the commercial
company you have named?