"Mr. Oswald, in the previous interview, gave me a description of his
background. He told me this and that and this and that, but he omitted
some information, to the best of my knowledge," and I mentioned that
that day some newspaper clippings had come to my attention about his
residence in Russia, and I said, "Is this true, Mr. Oswald?"; and
Oswald said, "Yes."
Mr. JENNER. Would you mark what I hand you, Mr. Reporter, as Stuckey
Exhibit No. 3.
(The item was marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 3 for identification.)
Mr. STUCKEY. You may be interested in knowing that the Information
Council of the Americas, Mr. Butler's organization, has since made a
record out of this debate, and just released it about 2 weeks ago,
called "Self-Portrait in Red."
Mr. JENNER. I am going to hand you, to refresh your recollection, if it
needs refreshing, a 10-page document which I have marked for purposes
of identification only as Stuckey Exhibit No. 3. Each of these pages
bears the figure 236 in red ink at the bottom. It is also known here
as, that is, around here, as Commission Document No. 87B. The pages
are numbered at the top 1 through 10, inclusive. It purports to be a
transcript of a tape recording of your broadcast of the evening about
which you speak, a debate on August 21, 1963.
We have obtained from the radio station, WDSU, a duplicate of the tape
itself. Would you take a look at this transcript and perhaps, if you
will run through it, tell us whether it is, to your recollection, a
transcript of your program that night?
Mr. STUCKEY. I would like to say this about this transcript. I think it
is very unfair. These people have put in all of Oswald's hesitations,
his "er's," and that sort of thing. I notice when the AP ran an account
of this after the assassination they had done all of this on Oswald.
They were apparently trying to make him look stupid. Everybody else was
using the "er's," but they didn't put those in.
Mr. JENNER. I will say it is a transcript--your attention is drawn
to the fact that the hesitations of Oswald are included, but the
hesitations of, let us say, even yourself and the other participants,
are not.
Mr. STUCKEY. Are not.
Mr. JENNER. And in that sense it is in some measure a distortion of the
actual tape.
Mr. STUCKEY. A slight distortion. I think it is an unfair thing.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we have the actual tape so the hesitations will
appear, and what I was using this primarily for is to afford you an
opportunity, if you wish to use it, to refresh your recollection of
this program.
What were some of the things that you now recall that struck you about
this dissertation?
Mr. STUCKEY. Well, of course, the principal thing that came out on that
program, aside from the Russian residence, the most striking thing
was his admission that he was a Marxist. We asked him if he was a
Communist--we were always doing this--he was very clever about avoiding
the question. He would usually say, "As I said before, I belong to no
other organization other than the Fair Play for Cuba Committee."
So we asked him this question, of course, and he gave us that answer,
and I asked, "Are you a Marxist?"; and he said, "Yes."
Otherwise, it was--the program was largely speeches by Bringuier and
Butler, and Oswald did not have a chance to ramble much or to talk much
as he had earlier, and most of his answers are rather short.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get into a discussion of democracy and communism
and Marxism and then the distinctions?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes, yes.
Mr. JENNER. The distinctions between them?
Mr. STUCKEY. A brief discussion. We asked him, I say "we," I mean Mr.
Butler asked him the difference between being a Marxist and being a
Communist, and this was a typical oblique Oswald answer. He says, "It
is the same difference between Ghana and Guinea, and even in Great
Britain they have socialized medicine," and that is about the extent of
the answer.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to this man's deep or
fundamental appreciation of Marxism, democracy, communism, fascism,
socialism, as the case might be?
Mr. STUCKEY. It was my impression he had done a great deal of reading.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an impression that his knowledge--that he
was, if I may use this expression, that he had a superficial knowledge
as distinguished from a close study with a critical leader or teacher
pointing out to him the fundamental distinctions between these systems?
Mr. STUCKEY. It would be difficult to say. It was apparent he was
acquainted with a wide body of facts and he knew appropriate words and
such from historical points concerning the development of Marxism.
Mr. JENNER. You see I am seeking your impression at the time and not
one that you have formed since.
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; right. Well, I had not run across many Marxists in my
time, and I guess this was about the first professional Marxist I had
run across, and he impressed me as knowing something about the subject.
But again it was difficult to appraise the full measure of his learning
because of his oblique way of answering questions and dodging questions
whenever he did not want to speak about a particular point. I would
hesitate to say whether it was superficial or not. I just don't know
that much about it.
Mr. JENNER. Give me your impression of his demeanor.
Mr. STUCKEY. Confident.
Mr. JENNER. Confident, self-assured?
Mr. STUCKEY. Self-assured, logical.
Mr. JENNER. Able to handle questions?
Mr. STUCKEY. Very well qualified to handle questions, articulate. There
was a little bit of a woodenness in his voice at times, and a little
stiff. This was another impression of mine about Oswald, his academic
manner. If he could use a six-syllable word----
Mr. JENNER. You mean demeanor?
Mr. STUCKEY. Demeanor; yes. If he could use a six-syllable word instead
of a two-syllable word, he would do so. Now that characteristic in
itself would not tend to make it that his learning was superficial.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression he searched for the
multisyllable word?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes, yes; as I say, he would prefer that. I don't know
why--of course, this is all hindsight, but it occurred to me he would
be the type of man who would not use the word, say, "murder," when
he could use something a little more formal like "act of violence,"
this sort of thing. It was, as a matter of fact, his manner was
sort of quasi-legal. It was almost as if he had--as if he were a
young attorney. He seemed to be very well acquainted with the legal
terminology dealing with constitutional rights.
Mr. JENNER. Did this discussion become heated?
Mr. STUCKEY. Yes; it did. It got rather heated. Mr. Butler, in
particular, more or less took the offensive, and attempted to trip him
up a few times on questions, questions about the nature of Marxism and
of the nature of the Castro regime and this sort of thing, and Mr.
Oswald handled himself very well, as usual. I think that we finished
him on that program. I think that after that program the Fair Play for
Cuba Committee, if there ever was one in New Orleans, had no future
there, because we had publicly linked the Fair Play for Cuba Committee
with a fellow who had lived in Russia for 3 years and who was an
admitted Marxist.
The interesting thing, or rather the danger involved, was the fact
that Oswald seemed like such a nice, bright boy and was extremely
believable before this. We thought the fellow could probably get quite
a few members if he was really indeed serious about getting members.
We figured after this broadcast of August 21, why, that was no longer
possible.
Mr. JENNER. The broadcast ran approximately how long?
Mr. STUCKEY. Twenty-five minutes.
Mr. JENNER. And after the broadcast broke up was that the last of your
contacts with Oswald?
Mr. STUCKEY. No; it wasn't. The others left, and Oswald looked a
little dejected, and I said, "Well, let's go out and have a beer," and
he says, "All right." So we left the studio and went to a bar called
Comeaux's Bar. It is about a half-block from the studio and this was
the first time that his manner kind of changed from the quasi-legal
position, and he relaxed a little bit. This was the first time I
ever saw him relaxed and off of his guard. We had about an hour's
conversation, 45 minutes to an hour, maybe a little more, maybe a
little less, and, by the way, I mentioned his suit being rather gawky
cut, and he told me afterward the suit was purchased in Russia, and
they didn't know much about making clothes over there. Would you like
me to tell you about the conversation?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I would.
Mr. STUCKEY. We covered a number of points because I was relaxed,
as far as I was concerned professionally I had no other occasion
to contact Oswald. He was off the spot. So we just had a little
conversation. During that conversation he told me that he was reading
at that time about Indonesian communism, and that he was reading
everything he could get his hands on. He offered an opinion about
Sukarno, that he was not really a Communist, that he was merely an
opportunist who was using the Communists.
We had a discussion about alcohol. I noticed he wasn't doing very good
with his beer, and it was a hot night, and he made a reference to that.
He said, "Well, you see, I am not used to drinking beer. I am a vodka
drinker." And he said, "My father-in-law taught me how to drink vodka,"
and then he proceeded to tell me that his father-in-law, who was the
father of his wife Marina, was a Russian Army colonel, and mentioned
that as an army colonel he earned quite a bit more money than Oswald
was earning in Russia. Oswald told me at that time he was making about
80 rubles a month as a factory worker, whereas his father-in-law, the
Colonel, was making something like 300 rubles a month, so he could
afford all the vodka he wanted, and he says that is who taught him to
drink vodka. May I refresh my memory----
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. STUCKEY. With some notes?
Mr. JENNER. Yes. You have mentioned Marina for the first time when you
cited her a moment ago. Had he mentioned her prior to that time?