Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--after he became employed at Jaggars?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I will tell you why. Because he told us that he goes
by bus Friday night or something to Fort Worth and he'd come back
Sunday evening. So it would be my normal assumption, I would say, that
he was staying in Dallas at the time.
Mr. JENNER. Had you and your father had some difficulty, some spats
between the two of you along about this time?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; we had been spatting all our life.
Mr. JENNER. I mean were you on speaking terms?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I'd say so.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall at least one occasion when you picked up
Oswald in front of the YMCA?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. That your husband Gary would go over and pick him up?
Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so.
Mr. JENNER. Bring him to your apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so, or he'd walk. I don't know. I don't believe
Gary picked him up there. I believe he walked or took the bus.
Mr. JENNER. What do you recall with respect to Lee's habits of
temperance or intemperance, drinking?
Mrs. GIBSON. I never saw him take a drink.
Mr. JENNER. Did he smoke?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't think he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina smoke?
Mrs. GIBSON. On the sly.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mrs. GIBSON. Because he objected to smoking, as I recall. He did. He
didn't like to see her smoke, and he didn't like to see her wear any
makeup.
Mr. JENNER. Did any discussions respecting that occur at your home?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; she told me this. Don't ask me how. We just got it
across to each other, you know.
Mr. JENNER. How did she communicate with you?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, when two people get together, if you try hard enough
you will get your idea across. If you have a dictionary and two hands,
you will get the idea across, and that is how we managed to, you know,
get our ideas fairly well across most of the time. But we didn't make
too great an attempt at speaking because it was so much effort. But I
do know this about makeup and smoking.
Mr. JENNER. Were there arguments between them on the subject?
Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, I'd say maybe small ones. He didn't like her to wear
lipstick and she liked to, things like that. She did like to smoke.
Mr. JENNER. What about his reading habits?
Mrs. GIBSON. He read a lot.
Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?
Mrs. GIBSON. My father had given him books to read. He was very much
interested in them.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have them with him at times when he was at your
place?
Mrs. GIBSON. One book I think he gave me that my father had asked him
to give me or I gave him that my father had asked him to give me, one
way or the other, it was called "Animal Farm."
Mr. JENNER. What is that book about?
Mrs. GIBSON. It is a satire, I guess. It is about animals, but it is a
takeoff on people. Orwell--did he write it?
Mr. JENNER. I think so. What is your recollection as to whether you
gave Oswald that book to read or whether your father gave it to him to
read?
Mrs. GIBSON. One way or the other it got to me. Either my father gave
it to me to read and I gave it to Lee or he gave it to Lee to read and
then Lee gave it to me. It was one way or the other.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember any other books?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think my father gave him some literature. I don't know
what it was, though. Oh, "1984" was another book that he read.
Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate that he had read it before?
Mrs. GIBSON. I believe that he had. That was by Orwell, too, wasn't it?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; it was. Did he indicate that he had read "1984" when
he was a Marine at El Toro, Calif.?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I think he read it again. My father had it and my
father read it, and I think Lee said he wanted to read it again.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss that book in your presence?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. What else do you recall as to the titles of books he read?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think he read the "Rise and the Fall of the Third
Reich." He read Hitler's, what would it be, autobiography?
Mr. JENNER. "Mein Kampf"?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he read the Marx book--what was that, was that the
Rise and Fall of the Third Reich? No; what was it, about Marxism?
Mr. JENNER. "Das Kapital"?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know what it was, but anyway, he read a book
that Marx wrote on Marxism, and that is about all I can recall on his
literature.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall some people or a person whose first name was
Natasha or Evalina?
Mrs. GIBSON. I know Natasha.
Mr. JENNER. How did Natasha come into this?
Mrs. GIBSON. First you will have to give me her last name so I am sure
I have got the right one.
Mr. JENNER. I can't give it to you.
Mrs. GIBSON. You don't have it?
Mr. JENNER. I can't because I don't know.
Mrs. GIBSON. You can't because you don't have it? Really?
Mr. JENNER. Really.
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, Natasha was a friend of my parents. They got in some
numerous squabbles and sometimes they'd part.
Mr. JENNER. Was she a single lady?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; she has a husband.
Mr. JENNER. They lived in Dallas?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; they are Russian. I can't think of her last name for
the life of me. Now, I don't know if Natasha knew Lee or not. Natasha
was a friend of my father and Jeanne. They got in numerous squabbles.
Their friendship would break off and then they'd come back together
again after a few months after the squabble had quieted down. Now,
whether she knew Lee or not, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You mentioned that in one of your interviews, and my query
of you is what led you to mention that, Natasha?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, being that she was one of the Russian colony I
figured probably she would know them. That is all.
Mr. JENNER. You were speculating?
Mrs. GIBSON. Speculating; that is all. Whether she did or not, I have
no idea.
Mr. JENNER. In one of your interviews you stated that after Marina had
stayed with you, she had moved into the Hall's. Does that refresh your
recollection that that 3- or 4-day period was immediately preceding her
moving into the Hall's?
Mrs. GIBSON. No. When all those questions were given to me, I didn't
have much time to think. It was completely by surprise. And when I said
that, I meant the first day, because as you found out, those days that
I am talking about are extremely vague. Why I don't know, but they are
very vague.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether possibly Oswald stayed with his
mother in Fort Worth?
Mrs. GIBSON. Maybe.
Mr. JENNER. In this period, say, from October 19 through November 3?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe he did, because he had to be in
Dallas. He couldn't commute to Dallas every day. Does his mother say
this?
Mr. JENNER. No. Do you have any recollection that Oswald stayed in the
Elsbeth Street apartment before Marina was moved in?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did any discussion occur as to whether Oswald had renounced
or attempted to renounce his American citizenship?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject even discussed?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, it was when he told us about how, you know, the
Russians wanted him to give it up.
Mr. JENNER. And he declined to?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina politically minded?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I wouldn't say so.
Mr. JENNER. But she was religious?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I'd say she was.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Oswald as to his intellect?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think he was very intelligent.
Mr. JENNER. Was he articulate?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what about his argumentation?
Mrs. GIBSON. Very good. He could make almost anybody believe what he
was saying.
Mr. JENNER. He was strong in his convictions?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Unbending?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression of whether he was quick-tempered
or prone to violence?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think he was very quick tempered.
Mr. JENNER. He flared up, did he, during these arguments?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And other things, with your husband?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; not with my husband. With his wife. He got disgusted,
I think, with our stupidity, as he called it, which used to infuriate
me. I don't particularly like being called stupid, and he used to call
us stupid a lot.
Mr. JENNER. Was that because you differed in your view?
Mrs. GIBSON. Differed with him.
Mr. JENNER. From him?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; that was his favorite word, we were stupid, we
weren't using our brains. He'd come up with something like, "How could
you possibly say such a thing?"
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever pick him up at the Jaggars place of business?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Your father and your stepmother now reside in Haiti?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When did they go to Haiti?
Mrs. GIBSON. Last year some time.
Mr. JENNER. June of 1963.
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Have you seen your father or your stepmother since then?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I saw them a couple of weeks ago.
Mr. JENNER. When they were here to testify, they dropped by to see you,
did they?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband Donald Gibson is a native-born American?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In an interview on December 3, 1963, you are reported
to have said that Lee Oswald occasionally came to your apartment,
of yourself and your husband, and although Marina stayed at your
apartment, only about 2 weeks, Oswald continued to visit on occasions.
Does that refresh your recollection that this stay of Marina at your
home was longer than 3 to 4 days?
Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been misunderstood. If I had said 2 weeks
I must have meant in all, meaning putting all your days together,
because I never would have said 2 weeks meaning a solid period of time
of 2 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. I think that is about all. I neglected to do this, Mrs.
Gibson. You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, did you not?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. General counsel for the Commission, with which he enclosed
a copy of the legislation, Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the
creation of this Commission?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. A copy of President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130
which created the Commission?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And fixed its scope and its powers and its duties and
responsibilities, which in general are to investigate the circumstances
surrounding leading up to, and involving the assassination of President
John Fitzgerald Kennedy?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, also, a copy of the rules and regulations of the
Commission under which depositions are taken?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you understand from all those papers that the
Commission is interviewing people who had, fortunately, or
unfortunately, touched the life of Lee Harvey Oswald and others?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And we had understood and as has now been revealed you did
have a connection with or some connection with the Oswalds?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which you have now elucidated.
I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the members of the legal staff of
the Commission, and Mr. Mosk, who was present earlier, likewise is a
member. Now, having in mind the objects and purposes and duties of
the Commission, is there anything that occurs to you that you would
like to add that you think would be helpful to the Commission in its
investigation of this subject?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. All right, that is all I have, and I appreciate very much
your coming here today. I know it is a considerable inconvenience.