Mr. PIC. Japan time, sir, that night.
Mr. JENNER. I mean, what source was the news?
Mr. PIC. American Armed Forces Network. My wife and I were in bed,
and I was about half asleep, and the radio was closest to her and she
nudged me and told me, and I said, "No, it couldn't be." So the next
day it appeared in the paper.
Mr. JENNER. What paper?
Mr. PIC. The Stars and Stripes, sir. Then I heard it on the radio again
the next day. There were a couple or three articles in the Stars and
Stripes about his defection. And I reported to the OSI and told them
who I was, and I told them who he was. Then I got in contact with the
Embassy in Japan.
Mr. JENNER. That is the American Embassy?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; and attempted to contact Lee. The only thing I
could get out was a telegram. I think my quote in the telegram was
"Please reconsider your actions." This, I understand, was delivered to
him at the Metropole Hotel in Moscow. After this defection I received
several----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When you heard this what was your reaction?
Mr. PIC. I didn't believe it. I mean my wife told me it was him, and
I think I stayed awake until the 10 o'clock news to hear it and they
mentioned it, and that was it, and so the next day it was in the paper
and that is when I reported to the OSI.
Mr. JENNER. What is OSI?
Mr. PIC. Office of Special Investigator, I believe, for the Air Force.
Mr. JENNER. Well, after the rebroadcasts and you became convinced it
was your brother what was your reaction?
Mr. PIC. It was hard to believe. It was just something you never expect.
Mr. JENNER. Had he done or said anything during all your life together
which served to lead you to think, well maybe it is so that he has?
Mr. PIC. Well, sir, ever since he was born and I was old enough to
remember, I always had a feeling that some great tragedy was going to
strike Lee in some way or another, and when this happened I figured
this was it. In fact, on the very day of the assassination I was
thinking about it when I was getting ready to go to work, and just,
I was thinking about him at that time and I figured well, when he
defected and came back--that was his big tragedy. I found out it wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. Would you give me--elaborate on that. Why did you have a
feeling for some time that someday he would have, would suffer a great
tragedy?
Mr. PIC. I don't know. It was just one of those things I can't explain.
I always had this feeling about him. Not as a kid, of course, but in my
young adulthood I thought that about him, especially after the incident
in New York. I thought this way. I had this feeling.
Mr. JENNER. You had a feeling at any time that he was groping for
a position or station in life, that he realized was beyond his
attainment, or any resentment on his part of his station in life?
Mr. PIC. I think he resented the fact that he never really had a
father, especially after he lost Mr. Ekdahl and his one and only chance
to get what he was looking for. Maybe that is why he looked to Robert
and I like he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see Marilyn Murret again?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she and I never discussed this. Those were the
orders of OSI, not to discuss it with anyone. I made them aware of her,
her presence in Japan. I don't know if they ever contacted her or not,
sir. I told them about her mentioning this to me that she knew he was
in Europe. How she knew, I don't know, sir. And everything I have read
states that no one knew he was going.
Mr. JENNER. But she was in your home?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The very day that the announcement was made?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That Lee had defected to Russia?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; and the radio wasn't on or anything. I had the
hi-fi, she liked classical music, and I was playing some of my
records for her, and at no time during the day did we have any radio
broadcasts. She came about noon. Maybe it was on prior to this, I don't
think so, because at 9 o'clock----
Mr. JENNER. If it had been on, prior to that time, she didn't mention
any defection? All she said to you was, "Did you know that Lee was in
Europe?" Is that correct?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. She didn't specify any country. In fact,
I asked her what country, and she said she didn't know. She just knew
he was in Europe. She had come from Australia to Japan. I think she may
have been in Japan a month prior to contacting me, a month, a little
less probably.
Mr. JENNER. You saw her again after that, did you?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she visited our house several times. I think the
last time we seen her was about April or May 1960 when she left Japan.
We never seen her again. She said she would contact us and tell us when
she was leaving, but she never did.
Mr. JENNER. What was your assignment in Japan?
Mr. PIC. I was a medical laboratory technician at the hospital there,
sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did you return to the United States?
Mr. PIC. July 1962, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And to where did you return?
Mr. PIC. To Lackland Air Force Base where I am presently stationed. In
Japan, there is more that happened, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. PIC. I received--I wrote Lee, I mean Robert, and asked him about
this. Of course in Japan we didn't get much news and the OSI wouldn't
tell me too much. The Embassy, all they confirmed is that he did
defect. I guess in a period of 2, 3 months I got information from
Robert through several letters. Every time I got some information
I went to the OSI about this. It seems there was a letter, I don't
remember if Robert had copied it from Lee's letter or he had sent me
the original letter. I showed this, I gave it to the OSI. If they gave
it back, it is destroyed now, sir. In this letter he said that no one
should try to contact him because the American capitalists would be
listening over the phone. He mentioned that he had been contemplating
this act for quite awhile. That no one knew it. This is all in my OSI
report.
And from what other information I had, I received the impression that
him turning toward communism or Marxism, whichever you want to call
it, took place while he was in Japan and in the Marine Corps, sir,
from the insinuations that were involved in the letter or from his own
statements.
Mr. JENNER. Up to this time, Sergeant, in all your association with
your brother, had there been occasions when there were discussions
with him in the family about any theories or reactions of his toward
democracy, communism, Marxism, or any other form of government?
Mr. PIC. Sir, the last time he talked to me, I think he was only about
12, 13 years old.
Mr. JENNER. Well, the answer is no?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; that is the answer--no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is that there hadn't been any such discussions?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You--I take it from that answer--you never heard him assert
any views?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. On his part, with respect to that subject matter?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
While I was processing to return to the States, I had seen in the paper
and everything that Lee was returning to the United States. When I
got my assignment to Lackland, the OSI kind of put it to me that if I
didn't want to be in the same vicinity as Lee that they could change
my orders, and I told them that the United States felt he was reliable
enough for, confident enough in him to let him return, that I would see
no reason to change my assignment. The OSI authorities said there was
no objection to me visiting him, talking to him or anything else. So I
didn't make any attempt to get my assignment changed because of these
reasons. Being it was close enough, you know, to see him fairly easily.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything else occur that you think is pertinent to the
time of your return to the United States?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; the only thing I knew about him was what I read in
the newspaper about him returning with his wife and child.
Mr. JENNER. When you say newspapers this is the Stars and Stripes?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; Stars and Stripes.
Mr. JENNER. That is before you returned to this country you had read in
the Stars and Stripes that he had returned to the United States?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; he was on his way, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He was on his way back?
Mr. PIC. He was on his way back at the same time I was on my way back.
Mr. JENNER. You knew he was on his way back, according to the Stars and
Stripes, with his wife and child?
Mr. PIC. Yes; sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you arrived at Lackland Air Force Base when?
Mr. PIC. I arrived in the San Antonio area approximately the 21st of
July 1962, and got a house, got settled and then I signed in on my base
in August. I was permitted 30 days leave, 13 days travel time, which I
took advantage of. I think I took 27 days leave. So I started work in
August, the latter part of August.
Mr. JENNER. During that period of time of your 30 days' leave, after
arriving at Lackland Air Force Base and San Antonio, did you make any
attempt to find out anything about your brother, where he was?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I called Robert, and we wrote a couple of letters,
and he told me Lee was back, and he was living in Dallas and working
there, and everything seemed to be okay.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother tell you that Lee, when he returned to
this country, had lived with him for a while?
Mr. PIC. I don't know if it was in these conversations. I learned at
the Thanksgiving reunion that he did.
Mr. JENNER. Which was Thanksgiving of 1962?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Up to the time you saw your brother, I take it, you saw him
Thanksgiving 1962?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we arrived at my brother Robert's Thanksgiving Day
between about 11:30, 12:30.
Mr. JENNER. In the morning?
Mr. PIC. In the morning. We were to meet Lee and his wife at the
Greyhound bus station approximately 2 o'clock. So Robert and I went
down to pick him up. We picked them up outside the Greyhound bus
station. Whether or not they--we had no way of seeing them getting
off a bus. They were at the station when we got there. We did all the
friendly sayings and I was----
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what happened now? What was the attitude, what were
your impressions?
Mr. PIC. Well, I still was wondering if he was going to have this
feeling of hostility toward me that he had shown the last time he had
seen me, but it didn't manifest itself whatsoever. He introduced me to
his wife, and I gave her a kiss, and his child. We got in the car, and
he said I hadn't changed much, and we just talked like that. At no time
did Marina speak any English. She would ask him questions in what I
believe was Russian and he would talk back to her in--and talk through.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with him on that subject--where
he had learned Russian?
Mr. PIC. Well, sir, I knew he had been in Russia over 2 years, so
evidently he had learned Russian while there.
Mr. JENNER. There was no occasion because of that, it never occurred to
you to ask him about how and when he had learned?
Mr. PIC. I wasn't going to pry into his affairs, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him as to his life in Russia?
Mr. PIC. We let him do the talking, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did he speak of it?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say?
Mr. PIC. He told us he worked in a factory there.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say what kind of work he did?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; he didn't.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of a factory it was?
Mr. PIC. Something to do with metalwork, aluminum, something like that,
I believe. He told me he was making about $80 a month, I think, while
he worked there.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say he had accommodations that supplemented that
salary? Was there anything about whether he had to pay rent or not pay
rent for his quarters?
Mr. PIC. He didn't talk about anything prior to him and Marina being
married.
Mr. JENNER. He did not?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; all the conversation was after their marriage.
Mr. JENNER. No discussion of his as to why he went to Russia in the
first place?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of his defection or attempted
defection?
Mr. PIC. Per se, no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You are qualifying that. You say per se.
Mr. PIC. Right. He did mention that because of his actions he had
received a dishonorable discharge from the Marine Corps and that he was
attempting to get this changed to an honorable status.
Mr. JENNER. Did he appear bitter about it?
Mr. PIC. He showed us his card which stated dishonorable or bad
conduct, something like that. I think it was dishonorable. He showed it
to me.
Mr. JENNER. What was his--what impression did you have as to his
overall attitude? What impression did you have as to his state of mind?
Mr. PIC. He impressed me that he was glad to be back, that he didn't
really enjoy his stay in Russia. He commented about the hard life they
had there.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say about that?
Mr. PIC. What did he say, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. PIC. A shortage of food, rationing of certain items, about eating a
lot of cabbage. He did say that the U.S. Government gave him the money
to come back on. He was in the process of paying them back. In fact, he
let it be known that regardless of anything else he was going to pay
the Government back.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say "regardless of anything else, I am going to pay
them back"? On what do you base that conclusory statement?
Mr. PIC. Well, he made the statement they paid and he is paying them
back, and he has got this job and he was telling me his financial
situation, and saying so much money is going to pay the Government back.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say about his financial situation?
Mr. PIC. He didn't give me--this is what he gave me for an address.
He said he lived in an apartment, one room apartment. They had no
television, no radio, no coffee pot. In fact, we brought him a coffee
pot for a present. Gave them a coffee pot and bought the little girl a
stuffed animal of some type.
Mr. JENNER. Thanksgiving Day you did this?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How come you brought him a coffee pot?
Mr. PIC. I was going to give him a present.
Mr. JENNER. It is the coffee pot that interests me. Here you hadn't
seen him for a long time, you were bringing him a gift--why were you----