Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, what did you observe with respect to the
attitude of Lee toward his mother on that occasion?
Mr. PIC. When he was eating he came and got what he wanted, picked up
his plate, went to the living room and watched TV. He decided what he
wanted to eat and maybe she helped him. I don't really remember too
much about it. I know he did not eat with us.
Mr. JENNER. Did you notice his relation, if any, with Robert?
Mr. PIC. From what I was told later and so forth when I wasn't present
him and Robert got along real good.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. My question was did you observe on this occasion.
Mr. PIC. There was nothing to observe while I was present, sir. He was
completely withdrawn from the crowd.
Mr. JENNER. He withdrew from everybody?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. PIC. Personally, I didn't know if he was more hostile towards me or
my wife. I still don't know this fact. Maybe it was her, maybe it was
me, maybe it was both of us.
In January 1953, I did reenlist in the Coast Guard. I decided to stay
in rather than quit, and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. From the time of that October visit of Robert to January
1953, did you see Lee at any time during that period?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; I did not. I seen my mother on several occasions. She
was working on 42d Street in a Lerner's Dress Shop. I guess I would see
her maybe once every 3 weeks to once a month, we dropped downtown, my
wife and I, to see her.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say about Lee during that time when you saw
her on those occasions?
Mr. PIC. Whenever I seen her, whether I was alone or with my wife, I
was usually alone, I went to see her myself, my wife didn't care to see
my mother, she would complain about her financial status and when I
would ask her about how Lee was doing she would say, "OK" but would not
elaborate.
Said "He is OK, but he doesn't have a brother, an older brother to talk
to or no one to do anything with."
Mr. JENNER. During this period of time and up to January 1953, in any
of the contacts you had with your mother did you learn or were you
advised or did you become aware that there was difficulty with Lee with
respect to truancy in attendance at school?
Mr. PIC. I am not quite there, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. The answer is, I take it, that up to this point
of January 1953 you were not aware.
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Despite the fact that you had seen your mother from time to
time during that period?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, we are at January 1953, when you reenlisted in
the Coast Guard.
Mr. PIC. That is right. So in February 1953, my wife and I were again
invited to their apartment. This may or may not have been the same
apartment we originally visited. I don't remember, sir. I know it was
up in the Bronx. I think it may have been a different apartment. Is
that right?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. PIC. As my wife and I walked in, Lee walked out and my mother
informed us that he would probably go to the Bronx Zoo. We had Sunday
dinner, and in the course of the conversation my mother informed me
that Lee was having a truancy problem and that the school officials
had suggested that he might need psychiatric aid to combat his truancy
problem.
She informed me that Lee said that he would not see a head shrinker or
nut doctor, and she wanted any suggestions or opinions from me as to
how to get him to see him, and I told her just take him down there.
That is all I could suggest.
Mr. JENNER. What was her response to that?
Mr. PIC. Well, Lee was still the boss. If he didn't want to go see the
psychiatrist, he wasn't going.
Mr. JENNER. She had no control over him?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you were quite aware of that, were you?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss that with her?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; she discussed it with me. I mean she told me that she
couldn't control him and so forth. This I knew.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression from anything she said to you
that this truancy or this lack of control problem had been something
that had suddenly arisen or----
Mr. PIC. I think it was gradual, and getting worse and worse as time
went by.
Mr. JENNER. Sergeant, when you were still home and up to the time you
enlisted which was in January 1950, had there been any control problems
with respect to Lee? In other words, had you noticed this problem
developing, any headstrong attitudes on his part? Cudgel your mind and
take yourself back.
Mr. PIC. I would say, sir, that whenever there was a disciplinary
problem to be taken care of that it wasn't enforced with Lee by his
mother prior to 1950. She always reminded Robert and I that we were the
older and we should see to these things that he don't do them and so
forth.
Mr. JENNER. What did you and Robert do about it?
Mr. PIC. Not much, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to him? You were his older brother. He had
the love and affection for you?
Mr. PIC. Well, sir; what was serious to her probably wasn't serious to
a 13- and 15-year old kid or 14-16. There was no big troubles he got
into that any kid does.
Mr. JENNER. What did you notice up until the time you enlisted
in January 1950, of Lee's relations with other children in the
neighborhood or his schoolmates. What was your overall impression,
first?
Mr. PIC. To my best recollection, sir; there were no other children in
the neighborhood of his age group that he played consistently with.
I think most of the time he went to play with other children it was
a matter of a couple, couple of blocks away or so, with his own age
group.
Mr. JENNER. Was he inclined to remain in the house rather than go out
and play with other children?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he was more inclined to stay in the house than go
out and play.
Mr. JENNER. Was that noticeable to you?
Mr. PIC. I wasn't there that much, sir; I was working and going to
school, both. I wasn't there to observe this.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. PIC. Except maybe on a weekend occasionally.
Mr. JENNER. But you did notice that when they came to New York in 1952,
particularly in the fall of 1952, that by that time he had become quite
headstrong?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that his mother and your mother Marguerite, had pretty
well lost any influence or control over him?
Mr. PIC. That is absolutely true, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, we brought you up to enlistment in January
1953.
Mr. PIC. On the occasion when we visited them in February 1953.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. PIC. At this same time in February 1953, I received orders to
go aboard ship again, so from the time period February 1953, until
September 1953, I was in and out of New York at sea.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see either your mother or Lee during that period of
time?
Mr. PIC. I did not see Lee after the February visit, sir. I had seen
her on several occasions.