Mr. JENNER. By the way what kind of a student were you?
Mr. PIC. I was a pretty good student at Chamberlain-Hunt. I had an A-B
average at Chamberlain-Hunt, I believe, I did not do too good in the
public schools, it was a little bit different, in Chamberlain-Hunt. The
classes being a little larger, no individualized concern, just mass
teaching. This was a little hard for me to adjust to. I did, I think I
had a B or C average at Arlington Heights.
My summer school session, I think I maintained a B-C average. Maybe an
A in one subject. So that in the 1949, the summer of 1949, I went to
Paschal High School for the summer session, and I decided at this time
that I liked Paschal better than Arlington Heights, so I fixed up my
own transfer papers and I transferred to Paschal High School in the
fall of 1949, which I did enjoy the school better.
Arlington Heights was rather a snobbish school, the rich kids went
there and everything, and being I was enrolled in what was called
distributive education which means you go to school and work part time
you are kind of looked down upon in these type schools. But in Paschal
it wasn't that way. The kids weren't snobbish and they weren't so high
class, the majority of them.
I didn't do too good that particular year. I was working pretty hard,
and I think I flunked one subject. So right after the Christmas
holidays 1949, I was coming towards my 18th birthday and I decided I
had just about finished school and I would be graduated, if I passed
everything I would, and I decided to join the service, the Coast Guard,
and then I processed my paper work, and 3 days prior to graduation I
quit school and joined the Coast Guard.
At this time to get in the Coast Guard was rather hard to do. You had
to get on a waiting list and when they called you and you didn't show
up for it you didn't get in maybe for 6 months or so. I joined the
Coast Guard because it was the hardest service to get into. I wasn't
interested in the Army or the Marine Corps or the Navy. I took the one
that was hardest, the hardest requirement and I got into it.
So, in January, approximately 25 January 1950 I joined the Coast Guard,
and left for Cape May, N.J. I did not see Robert, Lee, or my mother
until October 1950, 9 months later.
Mr. JENNER. October of 1959?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; 1950. 1950.
Mr. JENNER. Before we get to that or probe that any further, Lee
returned to school in the fall of 1949?
Mr. PIC. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. He was still at Ridglea Elementary, then?
Mr. PIC. As far as I know, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was his general attitude and his activities during
this period 1948, 1949, through the summer of 1949.
Mr. PIC. Sir; I was 17 years old, I wasn't interested in what an
8-9-year old kids activities were in school. I mean I had girls on my
mind and other things like that, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. PIC. To be honest with you.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, of course. What was your impression of him at that
time?
Mr. PIC. He would get into his trouble, and maybe he would have
trouble with a neighbor now and then about walking across their lawn
or something. I remember once there was a fight on the bus because of
Lee that my brother Robert got beat up because. Robert probably would
remember that better than I did.
Mr. JENNER. I don't know whether he mentioned that.
Mr. PIC. I know he got his rear end whipped because of Lee.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
You entered the Coast Guard, and then you didn't see either of your
brothers or your mother from the time of your enlistment in January of
1950.
Mr. PIC. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Until when?
Mr. PIC. October 1950, sir. Early October 1950.
Mr. JENNER. What was that occasion?
Mr. PIC. I went back home on leave, back to Fort Worth on leave, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How long were you home on leave?
Mr. PIC. I think I took 20 days' leave. I think I stayed there 15, 16,
something like that, about 2 weeks.
Mr. JENNER. What was the general atmosphere around the house at that
time?
Mr. PIC. Well, everybody was glad to see me. I was--well, I come home
with a couple of hundred dollars, you know a sailor off the high seas
always saves his money and the mother right away wanted to hold it for
me and so she conned me into that, and she let me have a few dollars of
my own.
Then I spent most of my time looking up old girl friends and things,
and visiting Mr. Conway. He and I were always playing chess together.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Conway, I took his deposition.
Mr. PIC. Yes, very nice man.
Mr. JENNER. He spoke of playing chess with you a great deal.
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I had forgotten that. Lived across the street.
Mr. PIC. No, sir; about five doors, four doors to the right of us.
Mr. JENNER. On the same side of the street?
Mr. PIC. Same side.
Mr. JENNER. Hiram Conway.
Mr. PIC. Hiram P. Conway.
Mr. JENNER. You then returned to the service?
Mr. PIC. Yes. I reported back to my ship.
Mr. JENNER. When next did you see your mother or Lee or Robert?
Mr. PIC. August 1952, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When you were back in the fall of 1950, was Lee in school?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; as far as I know.
Mr. JENNER. At Ridglea Elementary?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; as far as I know.
Mr. JENNER. Robert was still in school. He is now 16-1/2 years of age?
Mr. PIC. I don't know if he was. Going through those letters there was
a time period he was in school, out of school. I don't really remember.
I don't think he was in school when I returned on leave.
Mr. JENNER. What was he doing?
Mr. PIC. A & P, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Working. Are you now and were you then aware of the fact
that your father contributed to your support during all the years
actually until you reached your 18th birthday?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is when I decided to make it all on my own
since she reminded me of the fact that she wouldn't get no money after
I was 18 so that was one thing that contributed to me deciding to leave.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during all these years of what the amount of
that contribution was?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; I wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. But you were aware of the fact that your father was making
contributions?
Mr. PIC. I was always told it wasn't enough, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Apart from that you were aware of the fact your father was
making contributions?
Mr. PIC. Right. She reminded me the day I became 18 that the payments
stopped right then and there.
Mr. JENNER. The fact is that they did.
Mr. PIC. I know. I have no reason to doubt that. What was the amount?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. When you were in the service did you make any allotment to
your mother?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you send her any money at any time while you were in
the service?
Mr. PIC. Quite frequently, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. Tell us as best you can the amount.
Mr. PIC. When I was in boot camp from January 1950 to May 1950, the
only amount they paid us was $15 every 2 weeks and they held back the
rest of our pay until we would graduate and then we would have money to
go to our next station with. They do this to recruits. I don't remember
if I sent any of this 15 or not, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you send any of the excess when you got it?
Mr. PIC. In those letters I presented you could add them up and see how
much I sent in the year 1950. I think I sent $10, $20 at a time when I
had it. I was making $80 a month. How much could I send and still be a
sailor?
Mr. JENNER. This is not in any sense a criticism, sergeant. All I am
doing is seeking some facts.
Mr. PIC. Well, sir, in the letters she refers to 10, 20, 40, sometimes.
Mr. JENNER. I show you John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48 and 59, and referring
to No. 48, at the bottom of which is written Lee, age 2-1/2. Would you
identify that, please?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is Lee Harvey Oswald age 2-1/2 as the picture
states written in the handwriting of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald. This
picture was taken at Lillian Murret's at Sherwood Forest Drive.
Mr. JENNER. That was your aunt's home in Sherwood Forest, New Orleans.
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I am sure of that.
Mr. JENNER. I show you John Pic Exhibit No. 49 which--would you
identify that?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, I guess at
the same time, with a dog, and I am sure this was taken at Lillian
Murret's in Sherwood Forest Drive.
Mr. JENNER. At the same time that John Pic Exhibit No. 48 was taken?
Mr. PIC. Yes; I think so.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I hand you now John Pic Exhibit No. 56, a
photograph of a young man. Would you identify that as to time and place
if you can, and age, his age, the subject's age?
Mr. PIC. Sir, this is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald which I believe to
have been taken when he was in about the second or third grade.
Mr. JENNER. That would be when you were living in Dallas?
Mr. PIC. Fort Worth, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Fort Worth, yes; 7408 Ewing.
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I hand you John Pic Exhibits Nos. 57 and 58. I don't know
which depicts this young man at the younger age. Take the younger one.
Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 57, sir, I believe was taken either in late
1951 or early 1952, and it shows a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald
approximately how he looked when he came to New York to stay with my
wife and I in August of 1952.
Exhibit No. 58, to my best recollection, I think, is a picture sent to
me by my mother in approximately 1954, 1955, maybe in 1956, from New
Orleans, La. It is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. It is after they returned to New Orleans?
Mr. PIC. I am pretty sure that picture was taken in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48,
49, 56, 57, and 58.
(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48, 49, 56, 57, and 58 were marked for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances surrounding and leading up to
your mother and Lee coming to New York City in the summer of 1952?
Mr. PIC. I think this was brought on because Robert joined the service
sometime previous to that. That would be about right, April 1952, did
he join the service. I don't know when. He wasn't there at the time. He
was in the service when they came.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. He entered the service as soon as he reached his
majority.
Mr. PIC. So that would be April 1952.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an incident respecting, between Robert and your
mother and some young lady in which, in whom he was interested just
before he entered the service?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You came to know about that?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By what means?
Mr. PIC. By way of my mother, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, what was it?
Mr. PIC. Robert had been seeing this girl and she had a club foot. My
mother didn't feel that they should be married. He wanted to marry her,
and she conned him out of it.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Had you received any letters from Robert on that
subject at anytime?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Between the time you were home in October of 1950 and the
summer of 1952, had you seen your mother or either of your brothers?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, my question to you was what led up to and
what were the circumstances involving or surrounding the visit of your
mother and Lee to New York in the summer of 1952.
Mr. PIC. Well, Robert had joined the service in April 1952. It was the
summer months, so Lee was not in school, and the trip to New York was
feasible, being Lee would have no schooltime lost, it was my impression
and also my wife's--meanwhile, I was married, you know, if you are
interested in this.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am.
Mr. PIC. August 18, 1951, I married my wife Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman.
Mr. JENNER. You had met her after you had entered the service and while
you were stationed in the New York area?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. At this time, that is the summer of 1952 you were living
where?
Mr. PIC. 325 East 92d Street, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any children at that time?
Mr. PIC. In August 1952; yes, sir. I did.
Mr. JENNER. Your first child was born?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; John Edward Pic, Jr.
Mr. JENNER. Was the child born before or after your mother and Lee
arrived.
Mr. PIC. Before, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. PIC. He was born 14 May 1952, approximately 3 months before they
arrived.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Did you invite your mother and Lee to come to
New York?
Mr. PIC. The impression that my wife and myself had was they
were coming to visit, sir, and we had nothing against this. My
mother-in-law, we lived with her at the time, she was visiting her
other daughter, Mrs. Emma Parrish, in Norfolk, Va., she was staying
with them, so we had the room for them.
Mr. JENNER. But that was your mother's apartment or home?
Mr. PIC. Mother-in-law's.
Mr. JENNER. Was it an apartment or a home?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it was a box, freight-car type railroad apartment.
Mr. JENNER. One room in back of the other?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. So you were then guests of your mother-in-law at that
particular time, that is, living in her home or apartment? And your
impression was that your mother and Lee they were just visiting for
the summer months or for a period, to visit for the summer months or a
period during the summer that was your definite impression.
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, what happened?
Mr. PIC. At this time I was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard, Port
Security Unit, Ellis Island, New York. My status there, I was, I worked
once every fourth night, also every fourth weekend so I wasn't home all
the time. When they came I took leave so I could spend more time with
them.
Mr. JENNER. "I took Lee," would you elaborate on that? What do you mean
you took Lee.
Mr. PIC. I am allowed 30 days leave a year and I took off, I took a
week or so, I think.
Mr. JENNER. I misunderstood you, I thought you said you took Lee but
you said you took leave.
Mr. PIC. Leave.
Mr. JENNER. You took 30 days leave.
Mr. PIC. No, sir; maybe a week or two.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression, you were with them or tried to be
with them during that 2-week period.
Mr. PIC. Just a minute, sir. That is where I began my notes. August
1952, my mother and Lee came to New York. They brought with them quite
a bit of luggage, and their own TV set. On my way home I had to walk
about 8 to 10 blocks to the subway, and Lee walked up to meet me as I
was walking home, I told my wife and Lee decided to go up and meet me.
We met in the street and I was real glad to see him and he was real
glad to see me. We were real good friends. I think a matter of a few
days or so I took my leave. Lee and I visited some of the landmarks
of New York, the Museum of Natural History, Polk's Hobby Shop on 5th
Avenue. I took him on the Staten Island ferry, and several other
excursions we made.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.
Mr. PIC. Well, sir; it wasn't but a matter of days before I could sense
they moved in to stay for good, and this not being my apartment, but my
mother-in-law's apartment, my wife kind of frowned upon this a little
bit. We didn't really mind as long as my mother-in-law wasn't there,
but she was due back in a matter of a month or so.
During my leave I was under the impression that I may get out of the
service in January of 1953, when my enlistment was up, so I went around
to several colleges. My mother drove me to these colleges, Fordham
University, for one, and Brooklyn, some college in Brooklyn, a couple
of other ones I inquired about. I remember one conversation in the car
that she reminded me that even though Margy was my wife, she wasn't
quite as good as I was, and things like this. She didn't say too many
good things about my wife. Well, naturally, I resented this, because I
put my wife before my mother any day.
Things were pretty good during the time I was on leave. When I went
back to work I would come home my wife would tell me about some little
problem they would have. The first problem that I recollect was that
there was no support for the grocery bill whatsoever. I don't think I
was making more than $150 a month, and they were eating up quite a bit,
and I just casually mentioned that and my mother got very much upset
about it. So every night I got home and especially the nights I was
away and I would come home the next day my wife would have more to tell
me about the little arguments. It seems it is my wife's impression that
whenever there was an argument that my mother antagonized Lee towards
hostility against my wife.
My wife liked Lee. My wife and I had talked several times that it would
be nice if Lee would stay with us alone, and we wouldn't mind having
him. But we never bothered mentioning this because we knew it was an
impossibility.
It got toward schooltime and they had their foothold in the house and
he was going to enroll in the neighborhood school, and they planned to
stay with us, and I didn't much like this. We couldn't afford to have
them, and took him up to enroll in this school.
Mr. JENNER. You did?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; my mother did. I think this is a public school in New
York City located on about 89th, 90th Street between Third Avenue and
Second Avenue. Lee didn't like this school. I didn't much blame him.
Mr. ELY. When you visited these colleges, had you received credit for
finishing high school somehow?
Mr. PIC. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear anything to the effect that the reason why
your mother and Lee had come to New York had anything to do with Lee's
being given some sort of mental tests?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a period of time just before the enrollment of
Lee in the New York Public School, that he attended for about a month a
Lutheran denominational school?
Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. I am not up to that yet.
Mr. JENNER. I see. All right.
Mr. PIC. At about the same time that Lee was enrolled in school that
we had the big trouble. It seems that there was an argument about the
TV set one day, and--between my wife and my mother. It seems that
according to my wife's statement that my mother antagonized Lee, being
very hostile toward my wife and he pulled out a pocketknife and said
that if she made any attempt to do anything about it that he would use
it on her, at the same time Lee struck his mother. This perturbed my
wife to no end. So, I came home that night, and the facts were related
to me.
Mr. JENNER. When the facts were related to you was your mother present,
Lee present, your wife present? If not, who was present?
Mr. PIC. I think my wife told me this in private, sir. I went and asked
my mother about it.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother was home?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she was home.
Mr. JENNER. You went and spoke with your mother?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was Lee present when you spoke to your mother?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say to your mother and what did she say to you?
Mr. PIC. I asked her about the incident and she attempted to brush it
off as not being as serious as my wife put it. That Lee did not pull a
pocketknife on her. That they just had a little argument about what TV
channel they were going to watch. Being as prejudiced as I am I rather
believed my wife rather than my mother.
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to Lee about the incident?
Mr. PIC. I am getting to that, sir. So I approached Lee on this
subject, and about the first couple of words out of my wife he became
real hostile toward me, and let me get my notes on it. When this
happened it perturbed my wife so much that she told them they are
going to leave whether they liked it or not, and I think Lee had the
hostility toward my wife right then and there, when they were getting
thrown out of the house as they put it.
When I attempted to talk to Lee about this, he ignored me, and I was
never able to get to the kid again after that. He didn't care to hear
anything I had to say to him. So in a matter of a few days they packed
up and left, sir. They moved to the Bronx somewhere.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see them from time to time thereafter?
Mr. PIC. Yes, I can continue if you wish. Unless you want to stop there
and ask me something about it.
Mr. JENNER. Well, at this point, yes, I would like to ask you this: You
hadn't seen them from October of 1950 until the summer of 1952. Did you
notice any change in him, his overall attitude, his relations with his
mother, his demeanor, his feelings towards others, his actions toward
others?
Mr. PIC. He was definitely the boss.
Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us on what you base that?
Mr. PIC. I mean if he decided to do something, regardless of what my
mother said, he did it. She had no authority whatsoever with him. He
had no respect for her at all. He and my wife got along very well
together when they were alone, when she wasn't present, she and Lee got
along very well. She always reminded me of this.
Mr. JENNER. Your wife reminded you of that?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Without my mother present she could make it with Lee.
Mr. JENNER. But as soon as your mother came within contact with Lee in
your home, then the attitude changed?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Up to this incident when this knife pulling incident
occurred, how had your relations with Lee been?
Mr. PIC. Been very good, sir. He and I had gone on all these excursions
throughout New York City, and I tried to show him what I could, and
spend as much time as I could with him.
Mr. JENNER. You found him to have--he was interested in that sort of
thing?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he loved to go to the Museum of Natural History,
anything like that he liked.
Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to him about this relationship he appeared to
have with his mother in which he minded her or not as he saw fit and
did as he wished?
Mr. PIC. Not until the knife pulling incident.
Mr. JENNER. And you did discuss that subject with him on that occasion?
Mr. PIC. I attempted to, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to do it thereafter when you saw him from
time to time?
Mr. PIC. Sir, he would have nothing to do with me thereafter.
Mr. JENNER. He would not.
Mr. PIC. No, sir; he wouldn't even speak to me.
Mr. JENNER. There was an absolute, complete change then in his
relations with you?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. It was a marked one?
Mr. PIC. That is correct. I have a couple of more incidents in which I
can relate that even more so.
Mr. JENNER. Would you do that?
Mr. PIC. Well, the day they moved out they had done this before I came
home from work.
Mr. JENNER. They had moved out before you came home from work?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. To elaborate, in my notes I have "after
I approached Lee about this incident his feelings toward me became
hostile and thereafter remained indifferent to me and never again was I
able to communicate with him in any way."
Mr. JENNER. Sergeant, if you can, instead of just reading from your
notes, read your notes, and if they refresh your recollection and then
give in your own words the facts.
Mr. PIC. Well, prior to this particular incident, I would consider
us the best of friends as far as older brother-younger brother
relationship. My wife always says that he idolized me and thought quite
a bit of me.
Mr. JENNER. Up to this time, the relationship between you and your
brother Lee, and your brother Robert, all three of you, had been a
cordial normal friendly relationship that you expect to exist among
brothers?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was your nickname?
Mr. PIC. Pic.
Mr. JENNER. What was your brother Robert's nickname?
Mr. PIC. In Chamberlain-Hunt we referred to him as "Mouse". I think
that hung on a while after that.
Mr. JENNER. What nickname did he have before that?
Mr. PIC. None that I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Why did he get that? Was he a quiet boy?
Mr. PIC. He was the littlest one in Chamberlain-Hunt and that was why
they called him that.
Mr. JENNER. I see, size.
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever have a nickname?
Mr. PIC. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You had the feeling, did you, up until this incident at
least that Lee is a young boy, 7 years younger than you, and his
brother Robert 5 years older than he, and he looked up to both of you
as older brothers?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you had, both you and your brother Robert had love in
your heart for your brother Lee?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you felt he reciprocated that?
Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And the relationship between yourself and your brother
Robert was cordial?
Mr. PIC. They always have, and still are, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I may say to you that he so testified. All right.
Mr. PIC. So they moved out in about September 1952, maybe it was
late September, early October, somewhere around there, so from about
somewhere between September of 1952 and January 1953, my brother Robert
came to New York on leave, and we were all invited up to the Bronx.
Mr. JENNER. To visit whom?
Mr. PIC. Sir?
Mr. JENNER. To visit whom?
Mr. PIC. To visit my mother and my brother.
Mr. JENNER. Your brother?
Mr. PIC. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother's wife accompany him?
Mr. PIC. He wasn't married at that time, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He wasn't married?
Mr. PIC. I think this was, his leave was probably in October or
November 1952, a matter of a month or two after they had moved out. We
visited their apartment in the Bronx.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, where did your brother stay?
Mr. PIC. I think he stayed at the Soldier-Sailor-Airmen Club in New
York.
Mr. JENNER. In any event he did not stay with you.
Mr. PIC. No, sir; he may have stayed with my mother also. I don't think
so. Maybe for a night or two. We went out, my wife fixed him up with a
date with one of her girl friends and we went out together a couple of
times. So, we were invited up there for this Sunday dinner. So it was
my mother, Lee, Robert, my wife, myself, and my son.
Robert was already there when we arrived. When Lee seen me or my wife
he left the room. For dinner he sat in the front room watching TV and
didn't join us whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. He did not join you for dinner?
Mr. PIC. No, sir. Didn't speak to me or my wife.
Mr. JENNER. That put a kind of pall on the visit, did it not?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you--he didn't speak to you. Did you attempt to speak
with him?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did he answer you?
Mr. PIC. He shrugged his shoulders a couple of times maybe. He wasn't
interested in anything I had to say.
Mr. JENNER. He was definitely hostile to you and to Mrs. Pic?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that continued throughout the entire visit that evening
or was it an evening?
Mr. PIC. It was early afternoon until dusk. We did have an infant son
we had to get home.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a Sunday or Saturday?